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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 1:13:44 GMT -5
Ok, so it has been a while since I've dared to make something, too much thinking, not enough doing. In my defense, the ultimate expression of this idea would be a true hex system. Quite a bit of work has been done in that direction but without any tremendous success, so thatwork will just take a while. However, the idea was originally for this Bass Expansion and still would be the main reason for me to pursue it and this is more along the lines that I thought it could be done. Bass Expansion.For just about any idea that has some worth, you can likely find someone else has already done something similar or had the same goals and set about schemes, even patents, to do something similar. In fact, it is almost a bad sign if it hasn't been at least attempted or mentioned here and there. So too here, as far as I can remember I thought of it independently and it is 'rare' but found guitarist 'steven king' who has made a feature of it. In his you tube clips he explains it and you can hear it, but it is purposely 'subtle'. I heard a bit of an excerpt today...the bass is more apparent on recordings... www.guitarbystevenking.net/Bodhisattva_clip.mp3Explained how he has been getting that effect here... www.guitarbystevenking.net/instruments.html... and so, where I stole the term bass expansion from. Generally, he has used small pickups, sideways or above the strings just catching the low A and E strings. This is run through an analog EBS octabass pedal.... here is his definition.. Now, this was originally the kind of thing that my latest gutiar is built to be able to do... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=5970This guitar features both piezo and a neck mag that can blend in mono or pan in stereo from two output jacks into say two amps or effect chains. On benefit in the former when combined back to 'mono' is that hte pan control could control the volume of the effect by selecting more of one pickup and so the effect...(scratchy pot problem no withstanding). The third output and control knob are dummies for the proposed hex or Bass expansion Facility. This is a third pickup system that only picks up the bass string and sends that signal to another 'effects' chain, primarily to lower those strings by an octave, getting down into the bass guitar range...as steven king does. It occurred to me also that technology is moving on and although I have an old brown boss Octaver pedal, it glitches if it hears more than one note. For $59 new now, you can get a behringer digital pedal that can drop and octave or two (as well as intelligent mono harmony and other bizzare effects) polyphonically. So, the technology to make this happen is available and affordable and avoids to much risk of glitching if it hears two notes. So...for me, I need to design a very small pickup that can effectively pickup the low two strings and fit on the guitar, perhaps be adaptable to other instruments. For a hex thing, it would have to be set by the bridge, there is plenty of room on this guitar. But for a bass expansion thing, the strings will not be bent so it could be put up by the neck. So, I have designed it to fit in the smallest space and see which works best. The BEPP DesignOk. so the proposal is for two very small miniature coils, on for the two lowest strings, and wired in an HB format to avoid noise. Being a bit of a guerilla project and in true steam punk fashion and having no $$ I came up with the solution that will be illustrated in the next post for fear of the computer crashing again before the post is complete! continued...
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 2:11:41 GMT -5
Ok...so where was I... So, after much thought, we are looking at quite small coils. The thinnest wire without unwinding a junky pickup that I have is 0.125mm which is a little thick, but at least this will not break easily. Needless to say, anything like this will be of such low impedance it will need a bit of pre-amping! If too low, well, consider it a 'test run' but we will see. Ohhhh...Nails... galvanised fencing nails at that. Here you can see these 'stuck together' with the proposed Neodyminium magnet which creates opposite magnetism for each. Sounds like a plan, but wait. The heads of the nails are virtually touching so the lines of magnetism will tend to just jump the small gap to the opposite poles. On the outside, it risks reaching over to adjacent strings which we don't want to hear (a problem with hex designs of course) so not a good 'shape'. The head though is kind of convenient for holding the winding's on...so... I've ground off the heads so they will run parallel to the strings and so increasing the gap but still allowing the head to remain to provide strong support to the top. I've cut out some clear plastic for 'temporary' bobbin tops and bottoms...as I have a sneaky idea here...notice that the tops are 'slit' and repaired with sticky tape before winding. See through (lucky I had a doughnut packaging around to use) so I can see the progress and size of the coil. I also cut them to size and removed the rough gal and made them 'shiny'... Ok...so something to wind these things with...my drill can go slow with care. I lay this on the table and on the 'edge' of the table I used a 'trouser hanger' (I knew that would be useful eventually) to hold the wire bobbin to turn freely but some friction against the table so it does not roll about everywhere. Right hand on the trigger for control, left hand controlling the feed and tension. Ok...so...a secret weapon that seems appropriate for this kind of thing. Before people get carried away, this is not going to work too well for a sustainer coil, but as these are small and will wind fast I figure. I do use it it coat things like metal that could rust and to ensure against shorts against the inner core...that's right...nail varnish... Add a bit to start and add more as you go, it will squeeze through as you wind and with this thickness of wire will likely work ok...well, I've done it so of course it will. This also provides perfect 'potting' too, all the way through, but if you ahve not guessed already, the design tries to eliminate any useless space...like the entire 'bobbin'! continued...
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 2:26:28 GMT -5
So, realize that these picks are larger than actual size really! some more pics... Starting the first wind. I've added the nail varnish and taped the inner end securely to the drill, you don't want this to accidently catch into the coil or worse the drill. It is taped strategically so I can measure the ohms later as well, important to pre plan everything. Here is a pic I was going to show earlier. A really good and cheap place to find thin shielded cable is in RCA plugs as shown here and will take the signal noise free from this thing in the end to a preamp and then off to the output jack. Really good for wiring guitars and generally good enough to completely avoid cavity shielding. So, winding, varnish, winding...etc...till I get to the head size.... After enough time for the coil to set a bit, remove the top bobbin plate and re-coat with varnish all over, including the nail head to keep it shiny. and let dry some more. The inner windings will take a long time to set not being exposed to air, so careful does it. At this point,with care and a small 'vice' I was able to gently ease the bobbin tight up against the head where the winding's will also 'glue'. Leaving that to dry, and measuring the resistance of the coil (13.2 on the first one...not K ohms, just 13...extremely low impedance...hmmm) it's time to try and duplicate the same again... So, winding, varnish, winding...etc continued...
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 2:49:46 GMT -5
So...after much care and improvisation as well as a solid plan and preparation...two coils...the second one was not quite as thick so turned out a little wider and not quite as pretty...bear in mind how small these are. They are both measured close to 13 ohms...13.2 and13.4 if I recall. It is not obvious, the the nails were cut to length in the preparation, you don't want to be filing of cutting or anything like that once a coil is on there. The end result for today's work then... Two small coils, separated at about the width of adjacent strings and small enough with the magnet below on this guitar to fit level with the fret-board by the neck, or suspended from the bridge...depending on tests. It looks a bit rough here, but this picture is greatly larger than it is in reality and not a bad 'first effort' to prove a few things about the manufacture and later, things like separation which will help devising a hex pup I suspect in time. The end result too, is not this, though close to a testing phase. If it does work fine, it may ell be encapsulated in clear epoxy and the 'rough coils' will be secure and you will not notice this. It's a prototype like the rest of the guitar, main thing is that it achieves a result or gives clues as to where to improve things from there. But, I've inhaled enough nail varnish I'm sure and enough for today before I start making bad mistakes...so will leave it there. Obviously, I will be wiring them together taking note of the start and ends (they were both wound the same way) to make a very tiny humbucker 'bilateral' pup...bit like a precision bass pup I suppose. It will also be beneficial to let the coils 'set' as they are still fragile so will leave them over night at least. As mentioned earlier, the guitar was always envisaged to have such a system. It will be pre-amped and a simple volume control that will determine how loud the 'bass' or other effects on these strings are mixed with the guitar independently in relation to the rest of the guitar signal. The guitar will obviously work perfectly happily as it has done, usually in mono with a standard lead. I am though considering and have a suitable length of 4 core shielded cable that could carry all three signals and remote power to the guitar if wanted from an effects board kind of thing that will sit on top of the amp I suspect. Ok...so comments, suggestions, opinions...impedance going to be way too low for instance? Circuitry suggestions? Installation (neck or bridge)...compliments, criticisms? Above is my avian friend of late, a butcher bird sheltering from the rain and looking for a hand out. It's called a butcher bird as it likes to take it's 'meat' and hang it somewhere to eat at leisure. Makes an interesting sound and is in many ways like a little kookaburra...but without he laugh!
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 20, 2012 3:50:48 GMT -5
If it would help at all I have some small, poly-vinal discs about a centimeter wide and about 1mm thick, that I had picked up when I did a temp job at this place making those clear floor matts that go under office furniture and desks. Some need a lil sanding from were the extruder die cut through the little carpet spikes. I've gots like six dozen if not more of these just sitting in my travel pack waiting for my own attempts at this hex thing. I could send a handfull of them to you if you so wished, ill try to post a picture of them later photobucket is aparently down and I can't log in at the moment. I might just shoot an email instead. Anyway jus say the Word and ill have em shipped out. Finally got logged back in
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 4:36:40 GMT -5
Thanks, you can get them here, but for things this small, such things take up a lot of coil space.
This project is not 'hex' and not just because it only has two coils permanently wired together, but as you can see, even this small, the coils physically touch each other and six (or 12 if wanting to be noiseless like a GK can do far smaller) will easily sense eachother.
In this BEPP project, there are no adjacent coils to string we dont want to sense and permanently wired to be HBing.
I can assure you, it is not as easy as winding small enough coils to fit between each string and six amps to run them. This project will help me explore things a little more and get ideas, but this I doubt very much, could be expanded to six strings. The effect could be much like one pickup I suspect and as a result may as well be one simple coil.
I did extensive work on similar things (reverse pups) for hex sustainers and in the end found that a big single coil far out performed six small ones...plus a hell of a lot less work!
But, no harm in trying, perhaps you will discover results or ahve different expectations than I for such a device....there is a thread on some of my attempts around.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 20, 2012 5:49:03 GMT -5
Well I can guarantee these won't take up as much space as this guys do
And this is the only vid I could find on the subject so far.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jun 20, 2012 8:25:05 GMT -5
Ok...so comments, suggestions, opinions...impedance going to be way too low for instance? Circuitry suggestions? Installation (neck or bridge)...compliments, criticisms? Impedance is generally not a big problem, as long as the load has a higher impedance than the source. In this case, the source being the pickup. But it's possible the light load on the pickup might cause a treble peak. Hard to say as the inductance and capacitance of the windings are far different here than they are in a traditional guitar pickup. Some experimentation with resistance or capacitance in parallel with the coil might be useful. The wire gauge is huge compared with most guitar pickups. Was this leftovers from sustainer coil work? This is good enough for P.O.C. but I think you should be working with smaller gauge. About 0.05~0.06mm. This will allow for more windings and greater output. Also, making the coils a bit taller could help. You won't get twice as much output if the coil is twice as tall, but you will get an increase. You'll never see the same kind of DC resistance with these individual coils that you would see with a traditional guitar pickup. That's because the length of each winding is shorter. But I don't think resistance is all that important. It's more about the number of winds. Since the signal is going to be highly processed (octave-down box), string harmonics will likely be less desirable. Placement near the neck seems preferable. The fact that your two coils will be inherently hum-canceling (due to the magnet arrangement and flipped winding connections) is encouraging. With so few turns, you'll have a weak signal. You'll need every advantage you can get. If the coils are connected together driving a single preamp, series is likely to perform better than parallel.
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Post by ChristoMephisto on Jun 20, 2012 12:35:23 GMT -5
That's really cool project you got going there, the Horror King would be proud.
Almost looks like you're making half a vintage style Mustang bass pickup. Would one of those work, for those wanting to try, but not try winding a pickup, or do both poles have to be wrapped separately? Mount it on an angle to compensate for the string spacing...
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 20, 2012 15:16:48 GMT -5
Would one of those work, for those wanting to try, but not try winding a pickup, or do both poles have to be wrapped separately? Mount it on an angle to compensate for the string spacing... Not quite sure what you mean by "at an angle" are you refering to angling it like a strat bridge pup, or mounting it at a vertical angle? As for The wrapping of the coils, it can be done either of those ways but the project here is a spot humbucker for either 1 or 2 of the strings, with what 4real has stated it tends to seem like a split p-bass type pup in an hb format for noise canceling!
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Post by ChristoMephisto on Jun 20, 2012 15:32:38 GMT -5
Yeah, angled cause the string spacing on bass pups are wider than a guitar's.
Read the link fully and understood how it was two pups
it got me into looking to see if a simple octave divider could be built and installed, seems the octave up ones are way more simple than the dividers. Saves on carrying around an octave pedal.
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 15:43:11 GMT -5
Thanks @rt Thanks, we will see I guess, we can perhaps try to roll off any 'treble peak after all we are making a 'bass pickup' anyway and will be pre-amped and effected. The bass strings have more ferrous mass vibrating in the field and so perhaps a stronger output than the high strings. Once wired up, it will be tested unattached to the guitar so I can move it around and see how it performs for a bit of R&D in other applications. I considered also that a pup like the lace alumitone, know for a lot of clarity, is effectively a single winding pup with a transformer boost. There are other very small, very low impedance mag pups that create a very 'acoustic like' sound much like piezos these days... www.shadow-electronics.com/viewpro.html?lang_id=&id=273There are a lot of things that can or could be done that are not in your regular pickup design formats that the electric guitar is locked into. It will clearly need to be pre-amped. The choice of wire. Yeah, it is some left over wire. Many have criticised the way I worked like that, and here too I suppose but not so contentious...basically trial and error. So, to determine the wire that would work for that design (o.2mm) you got to try thicker and thinner wire. Left over means I have wires like this and thicker, far more than anyone needs and without use. Winding wires like this is a lot easier than with very thin stuff and so obviously an easier DIY proposition if others do try and replicate it, but no, it was not really a choice that considered this wire to be say, better. But it is thin and there are a lot of turns on there hence would with a drill as opposed to a sustainer which has perhaps n160 turns. Obviously with this I did not set up a 'proper' winder with a counter but wound to 'size'. I do ahve a huge roll of pickup wire would you believe, but alas, it got damaged (in the top of the big bobbin/roll broke off in transit) and suspect it is now useless . Still. it is a prototype and experiment in a few things...like constructing, methods, effectiveness, etc of such a small thing. The exercise in it self provides good R&D as you learn with each attempt. With very thin wire too, the bobbin would have to be far more elaborate and much harder to wind so, in true DIY steam punk style, I thought I'd look at something like this as a first step at least. Tall is a problem on a few fronts. It needs to be even smaller for some instruments to surface mount. In this prototype the magnet is quite big considering it is a neo-mag. Size could be cut back with a better choice of magnet or perhaps if it were integrated into the core which would allow a bit more room for windings. Obviously thinner winding's would also have given more output, but never enough without a pre-amp or transformer. As an example of known technology and even smaller...the roland GK pup... Is a tiny HB for each string (12 coils in all) and much smaller and wound with fine wire to 90 ohms I believe. DIYing that is not a practical proposition I don't think. A tall coil would I suspect have a far wider field of influence and pick up adjacent strings...consider bending a string on a strat pickup, it does not drop out if you bend between the poles as the filed is all mergeged and spread out as it is attracted back to the bottom of the pup. It is partly an exercise in controlling that field to be limited to, in this case. those two string and in a hex, a single string and not others. This design would require more work to be hex though...this is a quick and dirty but potentially effective means to reach the goal without going too far out there. Some lurkers out there might see 'hex sustainer' in their eye btw but this is not the way to do that either I don't think...obviously I have a little experience making such things which is why I am prepared to attempt this kind of thing, but like a true hex pup, there are problems which might not seem obvious and not the benefits one might hope for. Yes, resistance is an indicator as is turns and core and magnet with inductance. But, as long as it produces a fairly noiseless sound it is something to start from. In fact, a coil this low in impedance may have a resonant peak way outside the hearing range and sound fairly 'flat' or perhaps treble-y as you suggest which could be rolled off. The placement near the neck is possible on my guitar, and perhaps an acoustic with room in the sound hole. In this application, I don't have to worry about bending strings. With a 'hex' device you d and so you need to mount the things very close to the bridge. It is also a spot where there is room on other instruments typically. So, will try and see what can be made of it. Again, it's an active pickup which provides scope for taming some harmonic content. The HB thing I do think is an important aspect for the reasons you say, again the problem with some hex proposals. The 'spot coils' in the clip above are single coils and so will suffer like any other even though more powerful than these...the tallness too cold be a distinct disadvantage in many applications. At least with this 2 string device, it can be HB in series (adding the coils together) and noise cancelling without having two coils per string. Again, a different proposition for a hex design. Did I say parallel, wired in series of course! @cm Yeah, it is like a precision, mustang split of z-coil like a fender 12 or some of the G&L things...same principle. These things are very small though, smaller than pictured. Bear in mind though, I have at this stage only done the work shown as well. There could be all kinds of problems. The magnet is quite strong for instance and I don't want to create 'wolftones' or dampen the string at harmonic points (another reason for the bridge mounting option), it can not bee too close in this configuration. It will be possible perhaps to adjust this on the prototype and incorporate that into a MKII if this is the case. You would certainly not want to point a neo mag at a string which I've seen proposed occasionally. But the principle and design seems to be generally appropriate in many ways and point to other possibilities that are rattling about. The 'nail head' thing was influenced not just by the practicality of having the head to hold the winding's, but from a bartiloni patent I came across... This prototype thing is working towards playing with some of those ideas perhaps down the track. to get more string separation for a hex thing and perhaps means of making such things. It's all a big frustrating learning curve there. Work and thoughts have been on such a more elaborate project for some time now and been under wraps. I suspect working in a vacuum is not the best either. What I've posted on here is only the tip of some of the crazy ideas contemplated but have not cracked it though learned a bit about what does not work and the pitfalls. This is a compromise, but also a return to the original intention, so baby steps and perhaps reach the short term goal and provide some practical R&D in this kind of approach. I've been impressed by some of the ideas that have been passed to me in the background and those that one can think of for oneself. The 'sticking point' for most of these ideas is perhaps in the pickup and being affordable and not daunting to DIY where progress could be made in those directions. It's also in a way a 'call to arms' for some to think about improving real functionality and imagining things that are not just variations on the theme. This kind of thing is not for everyone, certainly not in the ambition here designed for a certain kind of 'play'...this is not a device that lends itself to 'strumming' and likely if playing with a bass player, you'll not want to be producing notes that 'low' in their range. However, with a little thought, one could conceive of things like 'hex distortion' (distortion without the mush and inter-modulation with complex chords) or effecting some strings in way different from others. I'ts not that highly an impractical thing that requires a lot of amps or would loose it's effect through a PA either for many effects and could be interesting with recordings too. In a GN2ish way, If such devices could easily be installed and run, imagine the trick wiring one might work towards in changing the effect of a normal guitar by using signals from selected strings! The thing is that they have to be small...small enough they can fit on a guitar without too much modding and so as not too pick up adjacent strings. A quiet signal, especially if they are going to require significant pre-amplification, not drain too much power, produce a decent enough sound (say, that could be run through a modeling effect or with some tone shaping in the pre-amp to improve and manipulate) and provide a means of construction that is doable so that the potential can be explored and improved upon. In a more guerilla style approach, I guess this is one way one might do it, at least with the 'stuff' I have on hand. I don't doubt it will create a signal, but whether it is up to the task or just a step in that direction remains to be seen! Anyway, thanks for the feedback and encouragement. With luck, I'll be able to finish it off and run a few tests perhaps today.
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Post by 4real on Jun 20, 2012 16:23:25 GMT -5
Yeah, angled cause the string spacing on bass pups are wider than a guitar's. Read the link fully and understood how it was two pups it got me into looking to see if a simple octave divider could be built and installed, seems the octave up ones are way more simple than the dividers. Saves on carrying around an octave pedal. Oh, missed this while writing essay above... The angle thing kind of through me, these are small enough that they don't need to 'overlap' like a P-bass or example given... The principle...a bilateral HB pickup...is the same and also used on sustainiac's drivers as well. They are not an idea thing though, especially mixed with more conventional pups or so it seems. But, a clever design of a single coil type of thing that is HBing. Ok....took another pic, a classic small thing next to a pic so you guys can get a better idea of the scale of the thing... The point of this is not to make an alternative conventional pickup and so not following why one would quite want to 'angle' or something a device in this format, they are cylindrical anyway, angling them does not make them wider. There would be better ways to do that I am sure. ... The thing with the kinds of project I tend to do is to try and reach beyond what is currently available. It is often not appreciated how much work and cost and time is involved in many of these kinds of activities...any of these kinds of DIY things. Building a guitar for instance is not a means to a cheaper instrument, far from it. You can buy a very good guitar for half the cost of tolling to do it properly no doubt and even then, you wont have the skills and experience to do it as well as a CNC machine in china! But...some things do lend themselves to DIY and that is this kind of thing, where you can't buy or can imagine and want to explore something really new. This ties into the idea of pickup building in the conventional forms. Really, you can not compete or thing that some miraculous result or sound is going to be hit upon or without good things to compare to and a lot of pickups made, learn that art to even be reliably 'good'. Sure, you might get lucky...or win tattslotto...but about as good as odds. However, there is a possibility that one could make a leap in a new direction and others will follow on from such ideas or contribute as here to overcome the problems and develop in he process something fundamentally different and useful. Not for difference sake or notoriety but because it adds to the expression of yourself when playing or create a tool to do so. ... Not that I am in anyway religeous, thank god...but...I did read this recently... I suppose if one puts enough 'haths' and such in a sentence it will sound more profound, but there is an essence in that in the wider metaphysical motivations behind what I do, for better or worse. Do we want 'more' purely cause more is, well more. More switching options, more sustain, more... Do we do things for the fantasy of money or other reward? To be perceived as 'clever' through achievements. Or is it arts for arts sake? All such things are a factor. But, I would like some more creative and lateral thought where it is possible, a little more rationality in some things, a little more practicality and real improvement in functionality and adding something more to the 'tool', the guitar in this case, for the production of music or self expression. Of course, if that expression is primarily in the production of the tool, what does that say about ones motivations. The 'excess' thing, well yeah, fine, and a stage we all go through...but often less is more. However, to create something new or to explore new possibilities or to point the way in a particular direction is a little more exciting, don't you think? I'd like to see far more of this kind of thing and referencing the musical goal over the object self referencing itself...but hey, that's just me I guess.
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Post by 4real on Jun 21, 2012 0:38:17 GMT -5
BExPP TEST NO#1...success!
Now, that does not happen every day. So, no sound clips, a little hard to do with everything all loose and such, but...
I wired the coils together rwrp and the other end to a jack and then that into a 1015' guitar lead and into my fender amp.
First, it is dead quiet. Second it produces a surprisingly loud sound without any pre-amp or buffer. Particularly in the neck area where there is a lot of string movement but also around the bridge. The low E is noticeably louder than the A string as well, reversing the pup shows that it is not that one coil is more powerful that the other as the results are the same.
By the neck there is a slight 'warble' though as the string moves to the extremes of the field which is not apparent by the bridge where the movement is far less. For a hex system, it would require to be down there to avoid problems with the bending of strings and such.
Interestingly, with the pups next to the a and E, there is no discernible signal from the D string at all...so powerful info about the hex side of things in that. I may have been misled by other experiments, but still, the adjacent strings are not magnetized by an adjoining pickup so a lot more tests would be required.
More testing shows it to just as effective for the high strings. Turning it sideways so that the two coils are picking up just the one string and still no leakage from adjoining strings even though the 'nail heads' are pointing across the strings.
The 'tone' seems quite good too, no strange 'spikes' fairly neutral but not anemic and very clean. Comparing it to the guitar, which is active...the volume seems to be about half or perhaps slightly more than the volume of the guitar with all settings the same by the neck, a lot less by the bridge but not struggling.
The magnet is quite strong, it too might be affecting vibrations and the alternate magnetic field N/S next to a normal pickup might be causing some problems. I've not had bot this thing and the guitar running at the same time but you can feel the strings pulling at the pup in your fingers at the neck and you need some distance from the strings (say 5mm)...at the bridge one can go a lot closer and you cant feel thieffect or hear that 'warble'.
Turning the pole heads sideways so that things are wider, seems to help in that regard, but, it is quieter (the magnetism is drawn more to itself than intersecting the strings) and you can start to hear the adjacent string a bit. This seems to indicate this 'clever' bit of the simple design is working as I'd hoped to shape the magnetic filed and something to explore further.
The total ohms is about 25.1 of these original test coils.
The next step, is to perhaps use a 'buffer'...lets see...
Ok, plugged a boss turbo distortion in to act as a crude pre-amp. You can get a very loud sound out of it with some boost...so easily in excess of the normal sound of the guitar. By the bridge it has an almost 'piano' like clarity to the notes.
With just these quick tests as I am typing I am getting some interesting effects. Adjacent strings can be heard and I have these things 'loose' so can play with and separate coils. The string sare not grounded effective, but I did notice that say, holding the pup above the low E and boosted like this you can hear the A a touch, very faintly. However...the hig E and B strings can come through quite prominently...these being strong harmonics of the E string and seems to be an 'odd' effect though... bizarre. It seems not to occur if I don't touch the strings or metal bridge.
There is a puzzle for you.
...
So...I would rate this as a remarkable success as far as it goes and points a way forward with similar hex things though likely to require a better design (such butt miniature 'stacked' HBs to ensure noise cancelling and small profile.
It is interesting to note that something even this remarkably low impedance device can sound very good considering and that powerful when it is running passively through all that guitar cable and does not seem to require silly amounts of pre-amp chewing up power.
It lends it self to all kinds of questions about fure formats and alternative pickup construction.
There is a huge difference between working with a wire like this (0.125) and conventional thinner than hair (0.063 is typical) wire, less likely to break (I'd not attempt this method with thinner) and easier to solder and, well, see given my eyesight lately. Also, a lot cheaper and easier to get. It lends itself to this kind of DIY thing a bit more.
As a prototype for this or more advanced thing then, it is quite a remarkable and simple thing. It raises a few options and ideas for improvement and spin offs and perhaps others will have other ideas as well.
It will need a pre-amp...welcome suggestions but I suspect most things will do the job and only be an improvment.
I can see design refinements possible that might help with the isolation but it really is a very mild effect. Cant quite make out the E and B string things, that is far louder than any cross talk from the adjacent string. I suppose a lot of the 'proof' of some of this will be in the 'mounting' of said device.
At the moment it is still a bit 'scrappy' as I did not want to shorten the wires or glue it all together, let alone encapsulate it. But I am guessing that will be the next step and some kind of temporary mounting to see if the vibration of the bridge or top has an adverse effect on the performance observed, perhaps ground it to the strings as well.
But, I'd call that to be quite a remarkable success...I was thinking it would be an extremely weak signal and perhaps suffer from sent passively to an amp and especially through so much cable before it got there, but it did very well and would be even better I am sure if the pre-amp was closer to the device.
I've not decided now where I will mount it as it raises all kinds of possibilities. The neck tone is typically louder and more 'rounded' and designed so that it can fit...but the bridge has a bright 'piano' like sound that is interesting and could be boosted...plus, for that I would not need to drill into the guitar as provision was made to do that in the bridge design. Working from the bridge would allow better separation characteristics I suspect, less interference with the neck pup and open up the possibilities of perhaps expanding it to a full stereo hex thing...hmmm. So, we will see. I have some pre-amp circuits about, so will try those, but wont push the luck with it till it is more securely held together and wired as in this state, it is a delicate thing.
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Post by sbgodofmetal on Jun 21, 2012 1:37:46 GMT -5
Congrats on a successful test of the spot pups man! ;D ;D ;D Going by the data collected and shared, Here's a suggestion! Ok as you have stated, its more piano like at the bridge right? Ok I'm gonna apologize ahead of time I got a bit of stratinitis lately ;D you could do like I had stated in my diy pup thread fo my own spot pup idea, have three, two string hunbuckers! Ok no time to draw up this idea now so ill go with plan w and "wing it" And remember "think strat" ______________[N] =========8=[ HB1, near neck for warmth =====8=====[ HB2, near middle =8=========[ HB3, near bridge for piano like clarity and tone
Well that's what I got it'd be interesting to hear. Keep us updated.
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Post by 4real on Jun 21, 2012 1:55:16 GMT -5
Well, yes, one could do that kind of thing. I mean, one could make 6 interdependently sliding pups and move the physically anywhere along the string for that matter (they don't need to be together to be HBing in pairs) but some of the tests seem to indicate a lot more.
For instance, most have the mindset of big pups with very thin wire and thousands of turns and the expected results of that. This points to a completely different kind of approach, albeit active.
And in addition, this was a quick and dirty attempt with a drill to wind it. I have a machine for my wafer coils that could be adapter to make far better quality and possibly smaller devices. Perhaps be able to simultaneously wind dual coils on the same cores to make them independently noiseless and perhaps not much larger, perhaps refine the ideas on the magnetic geometry.
But, for now the thing is that it achieves what it set out to do and so the thing is not to get carried away with the possibilities but take the project forward to a practical conclusion for the goal at hand.
A 'fully hex' guitar would be the ultimate thing ditching other systems and perhaps building the entire thing into a bridge and developing more effective tone shaping.
Rather than thinking one could move these tiny things around in more conventional guitar style (they are different from the conventional pickups in sound so it is not going to 'be' a strat for a start) I'd prefer to see some ways that they could be processed for a similar effect, on board.
As well as a 'drop' tuning, one could do an octave up and so create a twelve string, a stereo version could take some strings and raise them up an octave doubling the guitar, while dropping the bass for instance. How about something like tremolo on some strings and not others...etc, etc. Hex fuzz too is a distinct possibility.
thanks, I hope others too have an interest or suggestions...
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Post by 4real on Jun 25, 2012 20:21:45 GMT -5
I've had, still got...a crippling flu...so been laid up a while...slow progress slow... But, struggled about a little, tidying up the temporary wire joins and coating with epoxy. Some more is drying now. I did a little more testing once the thing was a little less fragile. Looking back, I kind of see what CM was getting at... Yes, but it would not be noise cancelling with just one coil. I can't remember the band, but there was a two piece rock band a while back that had a single coil mounted sideways under the E string to get the depth without a bass player on a tele. I've been interested in this idea for a while. ... I also have an old boss classic brown Octaver and tried it with that. It was a bit 'glitchy' but it may be largely because the signal out of this thing passively is so low. I'd expect an improvement with a pre-amp. So, will compare this option to the digital one which is more 'polyphonic' and sampled. ... I've also decided to go with mounting it up by the neck for various reasons. As rT said above, this may be advantageous...strong fundamentals and less harmonics...a nice round sound, plus more string movement so a stronger signal. In addition, fairly immune from the instrument or bridge vibration up at the solid neck join. It also leaves the bridge area uncluttered and available for perhaps future 'hex' ideas based of this idea. ... So, waiting for teh epoxy to set, I need to build up a solid base to mount it with double sided tape and make a grove under the pickup ring to feed the cable in that way for a neat inconspicuous installation. I have a pre-amp built so it can be tested more effectively with a strong signal... Steven king uses the effect subtly but it is there...he wants the guitar to be heard and so the bass not dominate in the mix. It does allow him to use a huge range of the neck though and not lose all the bass as he does. His recordings though seem to be mixed far more towards having the bass as a prominent role... www.guitarbystevenking.net/MM-Pink_Panther.mp3It's a massive octave extension of the guitars range in standard tuning...and who doesn't like bass?!
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Post by 4real on Jun 28, 2012 4:56:23 GMT -5
Suffering a bad flu, so this project has stallead a little.
I can report that I have securely coated it all in epoxy after wiring to a neat shielded cable and survived the process.
Decided to mount it up by the neck and how to attach it and feed the cable into the guitar through a groove in the pup ring nicely.....something to do when feeling better...
I ahve tested it with a couple of pre-amps. The first was faulty...the second was way too powerful, today an opamp kind of thing with some variable gain, seemed to be great with just a bit of gain.
...
Now, I will need help. In part to select a good preamp to use.
But, in my flu ridden condition, I thought that it might be good to make it just that little more 'complicated' as usual.
Could it be done...to feed this into a volume control and it's output to a separate volume control to adjust the bass string output as oringially proposed...
and...perhaps...mix it with the normal guitar signal...I'm not thinking too well just at the moment, but...
Consider this, it might be a good idea to be able to adjust the bass string volume a little louder with these say, than the rest of the guitar.
Also, when blended to piezo, it might be nice to combine that with an adjustable and magnetic bass string sound...through the normal out.
I't just a bit of an idea and have not fleshed it out, but does that make sense to be able to use it even when using the guitar in mono blend mode and also to be able to use it on it's own so that the signal can be effected separate from the rest of the guitar...typically an octave divider.
Will need to sleep on it a little...
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Post by 4real on Jul 5, 2012 4:30:23 GMT -5
Ok...been laid low with the flu and distracted by some other stuff. I tested the things with a few pre-amps but put together a variable gain thing that works well and still very quiet. Makes one wonder what else once could make with these kinds of approaches. After testing that it all works, got around to installing them, though the internal wiring will need to be incorporated fully. Though the battery was getting a bit warm though, can't see why though. The test rig, small pre-amp, smaller pickup...volume control 10KA... The install... I dremmeled a feed hole in the pickup ring to feed the shielded wire into the guitar...the pickup sits well below the fret-board and out of teh way yet picks up little if any of the D string even at a distance. ... So, a little ways to go, but an interesting experiment and looking forward to having it finished and in earnest. As most things in the bass are mono, the pickup can only pickup two strings at most, it gives some opportunities to perhaps record and run an audio to midi vst into say string bass or bass guitar sound without having a midi guitar! But I ahve several options for the octave down thing, boss octaver and digital solutions are all possibilities.
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Post by 4real on Sept 17, 2012 1:10:36 GMT -5
Well, been some busy times. I'd not got around to rewiring this up after fitting as been a bit busy and a death in the family and flow on effects.
I've learned a lot though in this and a modification of this approach is likely to produce a viable 'hex' like pickup if arranged in a discrete 'stack' for noise cancelling, or at the very least, in these pairs under each sting which was tested and could be refined.
I still really like the idea of bass expansion and think it has legs, but ideally one would want some kind of 'intellegent' circuit that would allow only the lowest notes to be sent to the output rather than all on. So, if an E string is sounding, the A string will not. Extending this to 3 strings would also be advantageous. So, this is the direction I am now thinking of taking this 'project' now the significant problem of small and discrete sensors has been achieved to a large degree and can be refined further from this prototype.
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 17, 2012 19:25:29 GMT -5
If you were absolutely sure that you wanted the low E string to always have precedence, then you could use something like a keyed compressor to accomplish it. It would be kind of fiddly to build, and would somewhat defeat whatever hum cancelling you've got going on.
The idea would be to have each string's coil hit a buffer stage. The E string's signal would then be split. One copy would get, rectified, and filtered to provide a control voltage which would reduce the gain (hopefully to somewhere near zero) on the A string. Then you'd mix the other copy of the E string's signal with that of the A.
Note that this does not necessarily give precedence to the lowest note. If you fret the 6th fret or higher on the E and play it against the open A, you'd actually end up hearing the higher of the two notes. You'd also have to be carefully not to hit the E string, even muted, when you want to hear the A. Accuracy and clean technique would be extremely important.
Not sure, but anything much more elaborate starts to want a sort of logic for which analog technology will begin to become unwieldy.
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Post by 4real on Sept 18, 2012 16:31:45 GMT -5
Thanks Ash, taking a bit to get my mind around this, been a few things going on so sits in the background... JohnH suggested noisegates and that is the kind of way. As these small things are active by necessity, a buffer or preamp is a given anyway. Consider each to be a separate pickup (they'ed need to be noise cancelling separately unlike the prototype here but doable in a stacked design). Perhaps set up a threshold so it is not too sensitive to playing and triggering. If the low E sounds, all other pups are turned off. If the A string is sounded the D string not (above a threshold) the E string could be left on as it is not sounded anyway. The D string, well the others could be left on as they are not sounded...if that makes sense and I've goit it right. Basically the lowest sounded string will be sensed and sent out only or are not sounded. So, perhaps an electronic switch chip activated by a control signal as you say, could switch out the unwanted higher string sensors via a control signal...is tricky. I imagine a PIC or similar chip might be programed to do this kind of function, though beyond me I suspect, but it seems as if it might be a possible contraption. As effectively a mono signal, perhaps an octave divider could be incorporated to lower the pitch internally with the circuit or sent out to a box to do that, or even sent to a separate recorded track or audio to midi software to trigger a VSTi as an example. That's my thoughts anyway. The more basic thing, without any 'intellegence' means that if one played two low notes, say a thrid apart, the bass sound will be very crouded and one would be restricted in what one plays and the signal would be polyphonic as well. Steven King, which the prototype was kind of based, uses this kind of thing but requires that the bass line must be played on the low two strings...and sounds like this... www.guitarbystevenking.net/Bodhisattva_clip.mp3
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Post by 4real on Sept 18, 2012 18:51:30 GMT -5
I found a second hand variax acoustic so looked it up...not sure this if for me, but they have a drop two lowest strings option and this guy demos it on this very out of sync vid that gives an idea of teh intention of this 'project'...
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