DPDT P/Oop questions

[sbgodofmetal]

So I got to thinking, when you wire a pickup to a switch like this it puts that pickup in or out of phase.



So here's the real question, so if you can do it to an individual pickup can you do it to the entire guitar at once by wiring the (+)&(-) from the volume pot to the switch and from the switch to the output jack?

[4real]

Sure...but it will sound no different.

The phrase being out of 'phase' means being OoP with something.

So, on a guitar, putting one pup out of phase will sound no different until it is combined with another (so both pickups). The resulting sound is one of cancellation leaving the differences between the two pickups sensing the strings at different places.

An interesting variation is the 'Half Out of Phase' or HOoP switch which includes a cap and so does not filter as much and therefore not as extreme. This was fairly new to me and put it in my sttrat and is more useful I feel.

Speaking of strats, often the combination of teh middle pickup and the neck or bridge is referred to as an out of phase sound, and although not electrically out of phase, it has a similar hollowed out quality because it is in a way 'physically out of phase. That is, the string vibrates in waveforms, at one place moving up and another place down...so, you can get this effect physically by catching the string at an up and down position.

A phase switch can often be a pretty weedy and not a useful sound, it's a specialist thing. It can vary a lot with different combos of guitar and pups. I rarely use it but I do have one on my tele and that can be heard in the kind of 'funky' hollowed out treble-y rythm solo on my tele's demo...right at the 3min mark...

soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=6852773

so no, you'll get no change in sound from a phase switch on the whole guitar!

[ashcatlt]

No change in sound flipping polarity of all the pickups...except...

Supposedly if you're playing through a loud/overdriven amp and getting resonant string feedback, flipping the polarity can sometimes cause it to break to a harmonic. I think I read somewhere that Brian May uses this trick. Not sure that this alone is worth the bother. You can often get the same effect just by changing the guitar's orientation relative to the speaker.

You'd need to make sure that this switch comes before any of the shield connections meet the circuit. You don't want to flip the switch and end up with shielding or string ground hanging off the tip of the jack. That would definitely change the sound!

[sbgodofmetal]

so no, you'll get no change in sound from a phase switch on the whole guitar!

No change in sound flipping polarity of all the pickups

So putting the switch between the volume pot and the jack will only work under special circumstances that are only present with a specific type of effect loop or amp or the combination of the two!?

So now if let's say I have a strat, and I wire all three pups to a push pull pot for P/oop, and its in th 2nd position bridge+middle and I select both pickups for out of phase will that in turn negate the effect all together, or will they both just be out of phase together?

I'm thinking that it might be wise to add a series parallel switch as well for this type of application.

[4real]

ash, tha'ts an interesting anecdote there, had not heard that before but stands to reason. It is the same way that you change the mod to harmonics in a sustainer...flipping the signal, the driver signal...or indeed the magnet all has this effect.

...

Phase is in relation to something else...out of phase in respect to something else. So, one pickup in relation to another.

I did build a strat guitar with a phase switch on every pup (one more than is strictly necessary, but was visually handy to be able to see the phase relations between them.

Understand that the strat middle phase is not electrical and it seems to vary a bit between guitars and pups and such. But on that one, the reversion of the phase of the middle pickup did seem to create the 'reverse effect' and create a kind of midrange ump rather than that iconic middle pos strat 'scoop' in such positions. Other guitars may well vary.

...

I'm not sure what you are fishing for though here sbGoM

I'd highly recommend getting a cheap strat and going through all these options and mods one at a time and observing and hearing the effects of phase and the like...and some study to understand the concepts.

Think about the phrase 'out of phase'...it means, a phase contrary to something else!

I don't follow what relevance an S/P switch comes into this at all. A phase switch can often be useful where you ahve the dark series things and the drop in volume and power from the phase scoop is a little less. It varies enormously with different guitars and pickups too. I thought it excessive with mine so chose to go the HOoP variation.

One key thing to understand with a lot of this though is that, all these wiring options, teh more you have the more you are duplicating pretty much the same effect. Often, you are just creating substandard versions of the way a pup is designed to sound. No HB split will sound like a strat or tele for instance, they can't.

Some pups split well while others sound bad...rail SC sized HB's are renown for bad splitting say...my SD JB full size is a pup renown for good splitting. But, it still wont sound like a strat.

...

The thing to do is to learn what these options sound like and select teh few that suit what you want to achieve and what works for your music and not to assume or expect too much from these strategies.

[sbgodofmetal]

It ain't cheap but I got one....



All three pickups ARE two conductor so no coil splitting on the bridge humbucker without going through disassembling the pickup and splitting the series wiring.

[4real]

There you go then...and other advantages too, has a rear cavity so you can hang the wires out the back without that strat pickgaurd hassle...much like my top loades HSS strat.

Now, the way I'd suggest approaching this, or any wiring if possible...is to wire onto a cardboard former so teh guitar is playable while testing systems and options.

As for the HB thing...well, if interested in learnignabout pickups, you got to be able to take it apart. With care, it is not as daughnting as it might sound. I did one recently on my last guitar with an original gibson with cover...

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=6021

Many have done this here, I suppose all my thread there offers is some decent pics throughout, a source of 4 core cable and too many k ohms oops..in the documentation

...

An example of wiring onto a cardboard former, which I do whre ever possible are like this...

strat...

LP...


I will never do this kind of thing inside the cavity...it's a pointless and useless proposition...


This small cavity in the strat only looks this neat cause and worked as it does because I did the work outside of the guitar and tested everything before installing it into the cavity I can assure you...you do not what to be poking an iron in their melting insulation and making a mess of it all, believe me.

...

Now that you have a 'mule' you can test out some of these things for yourself. In fact, for many thing you don't even need a switch...reverse the wires on the neck pickup and you will get it out of phase and can test those kinds of sound in combination with the otehr pickups (generally my OoP is on the neck...but you could do the same with the neck and see how that sounds).

But hey, make a board with some pre-wired dpdt switches with some hanging wires and you can test out some S/P options and the like too.

This is how we all learn and bit by bit. In particular, because every guitar and set of pickups is different and what is useful and sensible for what we play or the kind of logical layout can vary so much.

...


It makes much more sense to test one module at a time and cut your teeth on such things, especially if this is an interest and you just don't want a 'one off' scheme as a one off that often people do. There are heaps of 'modules' about that you can mix and match and learn how they work and in combination and of course, how they sound.

There is very little, if anything much...though, many things surprise me in the way things are implemented...that have not already been investigated as far as wiring of conventional pickup in conventional guitars.

I suspect most of us will have already tried jamming every possible option into a guitar...but perhaps we mature. Special kudos goes to those that can do the wiring logic and produce things that are intuitive to work or make things happen for people who have concise requests.
Anyway, a 'mule' guitar is I feel, an essential tool for learning and working out this kind of stuff and this looks like a reasonably decent option. But, you will learn more if you check out each system unto itself.

I'm not sure if there is a thread or site people could point to to understand the basics of these kinds of things, like explaining that OoP requires something to be out of phase with, but there is a lot one can learn from the sound clips and wiring modules and the many resources on offer here.

You just need to search around and read a lot and get some aims and goals for what you are trying to achieve. Generally anything anyone thinks of will mean a modification of things that have already been dreamed up and verified and there is no shortage of things to consider in the reference section.

[sbgodofmetal]

Well on the humbucker wolf has detailed instructions on his website as how to convert an oem two conductor humbucker to a four conductor. And luckily for me the one in my b.c.rich is a cheap korean knock off pup, which I just happen to have a spare just sittin around not being used. Just in case

[4real]

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=6021



Making pickups, 50x more delicate than this operation...

[sbgodofmetal]

Yeah here is the link to wolfs site going step by step on converting a two conductor HB to a four conductor one.

www.1728.org/guitar1a.htm

And here's my P.O.S. korean LPDC I salvaged from a trash can about two years ago



Its in need of major repairs especially on the neck pocket.

As it stands its virtually "UNPLAYABLE" but the electronics still work so I'll be doing the four conductor conversion to this pickup.

And C1 posted in his micro bass thread that the knobs were the cheapest he'd ever seen well check out the knobs on this thing...






They're not even metal its just super cheap foil plated ABS plastic and they sit so loose that when you move the guitat they fall off...

[sbgodofmetal]

Ok so I'm getting my b.c.rich back from my aunts house on Sunday and tomorrow I'm walking down to the storage room to get my amp and solder gear, and as soon as I find that infernal screwdriver set I keep misplacing ill pop the HB out of the LP and get to work on splitting the coils. Now my b.c.rich already has one pushpull in it wired for a neck add in all positions, what I want to do is have the HB at the bridge split and wired to a blend pot before wiring to the 5way. I'm keeping the neck add and adding a P/oop push/pull to the neck pup as well. So my selections should be this when completed...

1=B(both coils)
2=B(both coils)+M
3=M
4=M+N
5=N

Then

1=B(north coil)
2=B(north coil)+M
3=M
4=M+N
5=N

And then

1=B(south coil)
2=B(south coil)+M
3=M
4=M+N
5=N

Also

1=B(bc)+N
2=B(bc)+M+N
3=M+N
4=M+N*N
5=N*N

And

1=B(nc)+N
2=B(nc)+M+N
3=M+N
4=M+N*N
5=N*N

Then

1=B(sc)+N
2=B(sc)+M+N
3=M+N
4=M+N*N
5=N*N

And then

1=B(bc)
2=B(bc)+M
3=M
4=M+N(oop)
5=N(oop)

And

1=B(nc)
2=B(nc)+M
3=M
4=M+N(oop)
5=N(oop)

Also

1=B(sc)
2=B(sc)+M
3=M
4=M+N(oop)
5=N(oop)

And

1=B(bc)+N(oop)
2=B(bc)+M+N(oop)
3=M+N(oop)
4=M+N(oop)*N(oop)
5=N*N(oop)

And then

1=B(nc)+N(oop)
2=B(nc)+M+N(oop)
3=M+N(oop)
4=M+N(oop)*N(oop)
5=N(oop)*N(oop)

And

1=B(sc)+N(oop)
2=B(sc)+M+N(oop)
3=M+N(oop)
4=M+N(oop)*N(oop)
5=N(oop)*N(oop)

Not quite sure how the phase will work in the positions where the neck pickup is added twice.. does anyone have any experience with this in particular that could shed some light on what to expect sound wise? Will it still be oop or will it negat the effect all together? Anybody?

[reTrEaD]

Jun 30, 2012 2:54:53 GMT -5 sbgodofmetal said:

Not quite sure how the phase will work in the positions where the neck pickup is added twice.. does anyone have any experience with this in particular that could shed some light on what to expect sound wise? Will it still be oop or will it negat the effect all together? Anybody?

[sbgodofmetal]

Jun 30, 2012 5:20:41 GMT -5 @reTrOlL said:

Jun 30, 2012 2:54:53 GMT -5 sbgodofmetal said:

Not quite sure how the phase will work in the positions where the neck pickup is added twice.. does anyone have any experience with this in particular that could shed some light on what to expect sound wise? Will it still be oop or will it negat the effect all together? Anybody?

RT, I'm all for a humorus reply on an occasion where one would be deemed appropriate, but what your doing is straddling that thin line between humor and trolling

.

So, If ya can't be respectful and give a non spiteful reply don't post in my threads,

HTH

SBG...

[reTrEaD]

Jun 7, 2012 14:04:58 GMT -5 sbgodofmetal said:

Yes I have a sense of humor apparently you dont and I can't help; you there!

You have a sense of humor? Really? Seems more like...

[D2o]

There's nothing like a good joke ... and this is nothing like a good joke.

RT, resist temptation. SBG, install a cap on your forehead or run your android through a still or something.

Thanks, boys. Carry on.

D2o

[newey]

sbg-

To answer your question(s):

1) We use "*" to indicate a series connection. When you turn on the "neck on" switch, you won't have "N * N", you'll just have "N". Having a pickup wired by two different paths to output doesn't give you the pickup twice- it's still one pickup and produces one signal. The signal will travel via whichever route presents the lower resistance.

2) OOP only has meaning when you have two coils. The N can't be OOP with itself.

[ashcatlt]

Jun 30, 2012 10:03:08 GMT -5 newey said:

sbg-

To answer your question(s):

1) We use "*" to indicate a series connection. When you turn on the "neck on" switch, you won't have "N * N", you'll just have "N". Having a pickup wired by two different paths to output doesn't give you the pickup twice- it's still one pickup and produces one signal. The signal will travel via whichever route presents the lower resistance.

Naw, it'll take every route it can to get back around and complete the circuit. Doesn't make much difference in this instance since both paths are wires which start in the same place and end up in the same place. If one of the loops was significantly longer, or closer to a source of noise, and/or there was significant resistance in each loop, you might hear a difference. In most practical applications you won't.

2) OOP only has meaning when you have two coils. The N can't be OOP with itself.

It is conceivable possible to wire it such that the phase switch and the neck on switch conspire to connect + to -, shorting either the neck itself or the entire guitar. You'd kind of have to try to make that happen, though.

[sbgodofmetal]

2) OOP only has meaning when you have two coils. The N can't be OOP with itself.

thank you newey, as far as the "N*N" the guitar currently has a neck add switch and it does change with it selected twice for some reason. It gets this warmer sound and tone too it I don't know how cause every one says it does nothing oh well ill figure it out eventually

Naw, it'll take every route it can to get back around and complete the circuit. Doesn't make much difference in this instance since both paths are wires which start in the same place and end up in the same place. If one of the loops was significantly longer, or closer to a source of noise, and/or there was significant resistance in each loop, you might hear a difference. In most practical applications you won't.

Yeah when I'm in the neck position and I add the neck again it gets a warmer tone to it and is clearer sounding, only things I can think of that would cause it is it bypasses the neck tone or it is some how becoming hum cancelling with itself which I don't know how that could be posible but that's the only things that come to mind. It very well could just be wire length, its wired with really thin phone wire, though I really don't think that would cause this. Issue.