cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 30, 2012 15:38:21 GMT -5
Hello,
I took on a project guitar that has seen its better days. Its an Epiphone Les Paul that someone painted over the original finish on the top. Originally it was a flamed maple top and someone decided they wanted a gold top Les Paul so they took a paint brush (you can see all the strokes) and painted it school bus yellow and didn't care to clear coat it. I have been stripping off the paint and thats going well. I have it about 60% back to original finish. For anyone wondering, Im using finger nail polish remover and cotton balls to strip the paint.
Now, the hard part... Whoever had it decided it was a brilliant idea to "route" a hole in the back the size of a control cavity. Then they covered it with a make-shift wood cover that they did not recess and they painted blue (which doesn't match anything else on the guitar). So, this hole is there for nothing and I would like to fill it and paint it.
I have very little paint experience, but I want to learn and Im not worried about the guitar. It can only get better. Someone recommended glueing a block of wood in the hole to fill the majority of it and then using bondo to fill everything else. Then I would probably sand down the entire back of the guitar, paint it black, and clear coat it.
I wanted to check if there were better ways or other options. I dont have a lot of wood-working experience or the tools. Otherwise, I think routing the hole out slightly larger (to even out all the edges) and then filling the hole with a block of wood the exact size of the route would be a good option, but as I mentioned, I don't have the tools or experience to do that.
Any ideas? I could post pics later, but Im at work right now. Till I hear back I'll be stripping the rest of the crappy paint off the front. Also, any paint tips would be greatly appreciated. Im a total paint noob.
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Post by 4real on Jul 30, 2012 16:43:50 GMT -5
Need to see a picture...however...
You don't say where it is or how i affects the balance of teh guitar...but could be an opportunity to lighten a notoriously heavy guitar with a hollow chamber since it's already there and perhaps cover with something like ply since you are going for a solid colour anyway. Could be an opportunity to add a center third pickup like framptons old LP too and tricking out the wiring since likely the entire guitar will need refinishing.
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cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 30, 2012 17:37:47 GMT -5
Sorry, I forgot to mention the location. Its on the back of the guitar. The guitar is not with me at the moment, but I drew an oval to approximate the size/location of the cavity in question. The hole is at least an inch deep. Edit: The cavity has no connection to either of the other cavities and it does not go through to the top of the guitar. Seems pretty useless to me.  |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 30, 2012 18:06:25 GMT -5
For anyone wondering, Im using finger nail polish remover and cotton balls to strip the paint. Acetone only takes you so far, especially once you get past the lacquer. I use Kleen Strip's KS-3 stripper along with the Afterwash and a 3M pad.   Well, they must has put the hole there for something. Might be a place to mount a few gimmicks or a sustainer board. Is there any access holes out of this cavity? You can fill it solid, but that can be a lot of work. If it were me, and I wanted it filled cleanly, I'd find a cavity routing template slightly larger then what you have and make my top out of a similar piece of wood to the body of the guitar. Cavity kits also have the template for the top in the setup as a rule. Then route a bit deeper for the cover and just glue it in place.  That's the spirit, Damn the Torpedoes... You can do the solid piece of wood in the cavity. Doing that, however, is a lot trickier then it sounds. It needs to be flush and firm in the hole without leaving significant gaps to fill in. To do it right takes some specialized tools you may or may not have...and probably don't have based on the information you've provided. As far as painting goes, we could spend weeks going over the options and finer points of guitar painting. It comes down to what you want to spend. Lacquer is cheap and easy to work with, but the VOCs in the solvents can be a health issue without proper ventilation and a respirator. Standard auto paints work very well, buff out nicely and are rock hard, but there is an investment in equipment as well as a substantially higher cost for the paint. As 4Real said, a picture would go a long way in sending you down the right road. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by 4real on Jul 30, 2012 18:06:33 GMT -5
Well....you could look at it as an opportunity to do something a little 'unique'...how are your patience and woodworking skills? 'balance is important, so you might want to check that out, a lighter gutiar can be a good thing. For instance, since you already ahve a hole in it, and I assume they ahve made a mess of the top as well...hmmm... The location suggests to me a chance to be creative. First thing that comes to my mind is to perhaps attempt to strip the top...whole guitar perhaps...given the 'gold top' attempt, well...sounds like you may have to anyway. Perhaps even enlarge this 'cavity' a bit and design a nice 'f-hole' and cut through into it from the top. Paint the inside of teh cavity with matt black as well as a back plate made of say ply, then glue that on, fill and sand so invisible under paint...make as per a 'cover' and fit similarly. If you can do this without much damage to the top and the wood looks ok, you could leave 'blond' an black the back and sides to the neck perhaps...my latest guitar has that black and blond theme. You could of course stain the top in various ways or make that solid too, all would look nice with that effect. You would want to deepen the cavity around the F-hole perhaps...depends on your taste...or just leave the F-hole idea. A third pickup is an option since you are routing stuff out...just a thought...think of the wiring mayhem possible there... But sure, you could fill it with a nice block of wood, but nothing that will shrink or be uneven such as a block of pine that will move differently to other things. If you can route a nice accurate hole that matches the wood, that will of course work. For me, something like this though should scream 'opportunity' as it has already been a little trashed it is the perfect kind of project that one could experiment with. Let your imagination run wild and post pics as this will give a much better idea of what is going on...think about what you'd do with the LP and make something interesting. My version of a LP can be found here... guitarnuts2.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=music&action=display&thread=5313 |
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cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 31, 2012 12:35:20 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 31, 2012 15:12:57 GMT -5
Well, that's one serious gaping hole in there. I couldn't tell conclusively, but is there a hole out of that crater for wiring?
If there is access out of that hole it would be a shame to just fill it in without pondering something useful to drop on there. Suggestions?
Depending on how much spare coin you have laying around, some GraphTech Ghost saddles and either\both of the hexpander and acoustic simulator boards sound like a good choice.
Another option is one of the sustainer options available. 4Real has a DIY version, and you still have Fernanades or Sustainiac out of the box.
That's a nice finish the guitar had originally. I can understand why you want to save it. You can cop for some real acetone to do the stripping. New nail polish remover has the acetone substituted with some non VOC solvents, and the old fashioned stuff is a very lame version of acetone. If the nail polish hasn't lifted the original finish, the odds are the acetone won't either.
As far as filling said hole...to fill it with wood, sand, fill the seam gaps with epoxy wood filler, re-sand will certainly call for a repainting of the back of the guitar. Odds are good you're never going to match the existing color, and blending it back in with an existing clear coat already in place is a waste of effort on your part.
You may be able to get away with a cheap lacquer paint job. If the original finish isn't reacting to the acetone,then it's probably cured long enough so the lacquer won't lift it...probably... I mention this as lacquer has been known to lift existing finished in a very uncomplimentary way.
Even if you don't use the cavity for anything I'd take advantage of the small chamber created by it. I don't know if you're going to find a control cavity template to fit the size of the existing hole, but making a template to clean up the top of the hole to allow a clean seam with some 1/4" mahogany or even poplar would be my option of choice. It still requires a repainting of the back of the guitar, but it doesn't appear you're going to get out of that one anyway.
So, what's your take?
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 31, 2012 16:13:36 GMT -5
Yes. As I said, the hole is HUGE!  lol I think the top is totally salvageable. Since the top edge has binding around it, I might be able to repaint the back and sides. Although, Im a little skeptical that I would be able to do a really nice job (lack of experience). Here is the deal with the guitar. Its not mine. I used to work at a music store and I saw this one hanging in the store and I told them I would take it home and work on it and bring it back. I have as much time as I want since I paid for the guitar with store credit, but I will not be keeping the guitar. It will go back to the store. I just wanted to have a project to work on. Im ok with spending some money as long as I learn something. So, I dont really plan on modding it. I would just like to fill the hole and refinish it. I would love to learn about guitar finishes and paint in general. If I totally screw it up, I can strip it and start over I suppose. All I have lost is a bit of time and some paint. If the guitar turns out amazing I have the option of keeping it since I did pay for it, but I currently dont see myself getting that attached to it. *Edit: Forgot to mention... The cavity has no connection to any other cavity and does not go through to the top. Just to answer your question. I think whoever did this didnt really plan ahead too well. |
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Post by lpf3 on Jul 31, 2012 19:15:37 GMT -5
Interesting that there are no wiring channels leading out of that cavity- perhaps the previous owner did that for weight relief. ? As far as filling said hole...to fill it with wood, sand, fill the seam gaps with epoxy wood filler, re-sand will certainly call for a repainting of the back of the guitar. Odds are good you're never going to match the existing color, and blending it back in with an existing clear coat already in place is a waste of effort on your part. and......... I fully agree on both counts. There are a couple of different ways to clean up the hole & patch in a nice piece of wood well enough so that you could get away with a minimum of filler; but I don't see it ever being an invisible repair. I've done a couple of repairs that I filled & then glazed over it with epoxy- it looked perfect until I put paint on it. It seems like no matter what you do you're gonna see witness lines in the finish. You could put a veneer over the entire back but it doesn't sound like you're lookin' to go that route. I think it's best, as c1 suggested, to clean up the hole & make a nicer cover. There's gotta be any number of uses for it. That's a beautiful piece of figured maple under that paint, I can't imagine that someone would cover that up. I would suggest removing the rest of the hardware & the electronics; if you don't want to de- solder the wiring at least remove the pickup rings, and the mounting nuts on the pots & switch. Just push the pots thru the holes for now & tape off the pups. I actually refinished a Les Paul that way once when I was too lazy to remove everything.   Worked out fine. The fact that the nail polish remover isn't hurting the finish tell me that it's poly, and a least a few years old. That doesn't mean the polish remover won't damage it so it won't hurt to take your time, carefully. I'll bet in the end that existing finish will buff out beautifully.  Wish I was more help with what to do with that hole........ -lpf3 |
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Post by cynical1 on Jul 31, 2012 20:00:03 GMT -5
I've done a few trem cavity fills this way and it always worked out fine, and that requires routing and filling both top and bottom. I started leaving the back as a chamber a number of years ago and never had one come back.
The veneer trick works pretty good at hiding any seams of inconsistencies in the fix. It is a bit more work, but not terribly expensive if you use a cheap veneer (you're going to paint over it anyway) and sand it well prior to painting.
Long and short of it is that there's no easy way to fix this one, but you can get a seamless result if you're willing to put the time, materials and tools into the effort.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 31, 2012 21:23:25 GMT -5
That's a beautiful piece of figured maple under that paint, I can't imagine that someone would cover that up. I would suggest removing the rest of the hardware & the electronics; if you don't want to de- solder the wiring at least remove the pickup rings, and the mounting nuts on the pots & switch. Just push the pots thru the holes for now & tape off the pups. I actually refinished a Les Paul that way once when I was too lazy to remove everything. Worked out fine. The fact that the nail polish remover isn't hurting the finish tell me that it's poly, and a least a few years old. That doesn't mean the polish remover won't damage it so it won't hurt to take your time, carefully. Yeah, I was just leaving all the hardware on while I was hitting the big areas. I already took the pots, one pickup, and tail-piece studs right before I read this post. I have a lot of guitar repair experience, just not much in the finish department. :S But thats part of the reason I took on this project. It looks like the original finish had a gloss coat that is no longer... The finish is very flat after I remove the yellow paint. I don't think its the nail polish remover though. Im wondering if whatever product they used messed up the gloss coat. Dunno. Kinda like is as a flat finish, but it would probably look really nice if it was glossy. *Edit: I think they sanded it before they painted it. Hence the flat finish. |
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Post by lpf3 on Jul 31, 2012 21:43:54 GMT -5
It looks like the original finish had a gloss coat that is no longer... The finish is very flat after I remove the yellow paint. I don't think its the nail polish remover though. Im wondering if whatever product they used messed up the gloss coat. Dunno. Kinda like is as a flat finish, but it would probably look really nice if it was glossy. That's no problem. If you're able to get that yellow off & keep the color underneath intact; you can wetsand with fine sandpaper ( starting at around 800 grit) then buff with a good automotive polishing compound and bring it back to a beautiful gloss. -lpf3 |
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Post by newey on Jul 31, 2012 22:01:06 GMT -5
cheez- I tend to agree with 4real and Cyn- keep the cavity and just work on cleaning up the cover fitment. Although I would not use a wood veneer and paint the cover. I'd make a new cover out of plastic stock the same color as the other two covers on the back. It already has two cavity covers on the back, a third cover matching the other two isn't going to look any different/worse. In fact, people will wonder what custom stuff lurks beneath. It's sort of "Faux Nutz". And, if someone ever gets the urge to use the cavity, it's ready to go.  You're using this project to learn some refinishing, and you'll get plenty of that with just restoring what's there. Trying to fill and/or disguise the cavity will just make you tear your hair. |
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cheezor
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Post by cheezor on Jul 31, 2012 23:07:02 GMT -5
Getting the yellow paint off the front is easy. Time consuming, but easy. I kind of wanted a challenge, but if everyone here agrees that I shouldn't attempt to fill it then I feel like I'd be stupid for not listening when I asked for advice. lol
I dont own a router or know how to use one. Might be time. I have always wanted one. I don't have a workspace right now. Thats kind of a major problem.
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 1, 2012 12:51:39 GMT -5
Sadly, unless you have the steady hand of a skilled wood carver, you're gonna need a router...and ideally a router table and sanding drum to pull this off cleanly. A good router is going to run you just past $100.00, but a cheap table and sanding drum attachment can be had for under $75.00 if you look. I can think of a few other options, but since you're shy on tools and shop space we'll shelve that for now. However, finding a friend with said tools only leaves you the template. You can go to the standard supply houses for this, but I'm going to drop in a shameless plug for a guy I've gotten templates from on eBay: Send a message to Al at The Guitar Parts Center and ask for a price on a 2 piece cavity routing template for about 3/16" or 1/4" larger then the size of your crater. I've picked up several templates from Al and they are twice as heavy as the stuff normally available and dead friggin' on. Sorry I can't point you to an easy way to do this, but at least you know where you have to go to get the job done over time. Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 11, 2012 19:16:52 GMT -5
This is an easy fix and you can do it on the cheap. You don't even need power tools if you have time and patience. Do not attempt to fill the cavity. It's fine as is but just needs a little TLC for the hideous cover. Use a chisel (initially & carefully) and a simple single edge razor blade scraper made from from a piece of wood and a screw/bolt can create a ledge (look at the control cover ledge so you know what I mean) for a new piece of wood to fit over the wound. You don't have to go very deep either - 1/8" to 3/16" should do the trick for the patch. The screw holes I'd patch with Durham's rock hard water putty. Can use that to grain fill the patch wood/tiny gaps if necessary. Once you get the patch in it's a black back so matching color shouldn't be a problem and all Epiphone's have about a foot of poly clear on them. Sand the entire back (the flat area) and shoot it. After that dries in a day or so shoot the clear on. Light even coats are better than a graffiti tag heavy bombardment. Be sure to mask off anything you don't want overspray on. |
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lol I think the top is totally salvageable. Since the top edge has binding around it, I might be able to repaint the back and sides. Although, Im a little skeptical that I would be able to do a really nice job (lack of experience). 
Worked out fine. 
