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Post by JohnH on Sept 28, 2012 16:12:48 GMT -5
Yes, I see you have added the tone graphs, and they look fine indeed. One further shot - about dull tone on the B: How long a guitar cable are you using? ?? Hot pickups and long cables sound dull, due to cable capacitance and high pickup inductance. But the parallel setting should be much clearer sounding. If you are using a 20', try a 10', or even as a test, a very short patch cable between guitar and amp. Would not explain low volume though. John'
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Post by sumgai on Sept 29, 2012 10:28:00 GMT -5
I think you may have missed the point. Acoustic and Electric guitars are very different instruments - too me at least (and to many others). Do you play a violin the same way you would play a bass guitar? No. Errr, yes, in fact I do play them both the same way - cleanly. But your point was, in order accomplish your desired playing styles (something different from clean/sloppy techniques), you've set up your instruments differently. And to be very certain, the reason they are adjustable in the first place is exactly so players can fine-tune them to their own playing styles. Point taken, my apologies. sumgai
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Post by long813 on Sept 29, 2012 12:37:31 GMT -5
Yes, I see you have added the tone graphs, and they look fine indeed. Thought so. Hmm. 10 feet. It's a planet wave custom series. Shame they don't put the capacitance per foot measurement on the data when they advertise "low capacitance". Interesting. I never would have thought that the short length of cable would really have an effect. After reading this I have been reading about and it does seem to be an important factor. In the headphone realm, cabling is nearly 100% snake oil as the distances are short enough and the gauges are slim. I do only have one cable (no effects for this guy), but since PW has a life time warranty, I can maybe check out some smaller ones then return them. I'll check out your buffer circuit article, see if I can make one from parts I have laying around an check out how that works. Hmm yes, it's a weird outcome. I'll try to get to recording some sounds today. My old prof would always joke around saying that there are 'ghosts in the machines and gremlins on the transmission lines". Every time something went wrong in our classes and we couldn't figure out what it was (typical it turned out to be lifted conductors on protoboards or faulty scope/probe) we'd joke saying it's the ghosts screwing with us. From all these tests though, it would seem that the wiring harness is in fine working condition, leaving the problem to be the pickup. Further from oddity though, is that the pickup it self is measuring correctly. A long shot could be, that this guitar was placed near some strong magnets for the past 5 years which led to demagnetize it...which would then lead to a mystery super-magnet around the house that can neither be seen nor felt. Errr, yes, in fact I do play them both the same way - cleanly. Right. See, I've been away from an electric for 5 years. It's like re-learning how to ride a bike. Different finesse is required. No need to apologies! We're all here to help...well to help me in this case Yes, the major difference is the tension - 13's vs 10's & medium-high action vs medium-low action. When I bend a whole step on an acoustic, the physical demand would bend up 2 whole steps on electric haha. It just requires me to get used to the instrument again and get comfortable with the amount of strength and figure placement (super jumbo frets to something much less... also quite a bit different) Cheers,
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Post by JohnH on Sept 29, 2012 15:10:19 GMT -5
A 10' cable should be fine.
How about adjusting pickup height and screw-coil pole piece height?
J
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Post by long813 on Sept 29, 2012 20:21:20 GMT -5
A 10' cable should be fine. How about adjusting pickup height and screw-coil pole piece height? J That's the first thing I looked at. It's not super recessed, it's actually higher up than the neck. I'm having internet troubles and trying to learn the ins and outs of audacity (need to find the right spot to record). Looks like it's going to be a tomorrow job.
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Post by long813 on Sept 30, 2012 20:10:36 GMT -5
Well, this recording this is starting to aggravate me. It's either clipping or to quite to silence. I mic really is necessary haha. I'm still trying though.
I am just thinking aloud here, but is it possible that the bridge pickup is damaged in some way? Reading 15.59 K before putting it in the system, when typically they are at 16.5 K. It's not a difference I would think would be noticable, but IF ... IF it is the problem it could also be the reason why I don't hear noticeable differences in the pickup options. Maybe the neck is over powering the bridge in all modes.
I may go to the local guitar shop and see if there is anything I can do by means of trying out a new pickup to see if that's the problem.
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Post by JohnH on Sept 30, 2012 21:15:33 GMT -5
For recording, some kind of USB/guitar interface might be handy: www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCG102.aspxI use a Zoom G2nu modeller, which also can do that. I wouldnt have suspected that small difference in resistance to be significant. If you are up for one more test, I would suggest disconnecting the bridge pup from the volume pot (I think thats the black wire at this time), and take an output directly from that and ground. With all knobs in, that will be your full series humbucker with no other influence of wiring or pots, caps etc. it should sound as loud and clear as it will get. You could see if a guitar shop has a guitar with that pickup in it, (maybe unlikley), or at least let you try yours on a different amp. zthe thing is, if you try to explain this scheme to them, they will probably go WTF. John
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Post by long813 on Sept 30, 2012 21:25:21 GMT -5
Right on, I'll take a look. Thing is money is tight right now being unemployed and all. Still trying to sell my amp for a different one + cash. If I can get it, a mic maybe the right choice. I can see 5K + making a difference (as is between SH2 vs SH4), so I'm not very sold on it, but I don't see anything else that could be wrong. Definitely. I'll try this again. I did it before in version 1 to test out both neck and bridge, but I'll try to record it this time. Lost cause explaining that!
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bowyn
Meter Reader 1st Class
That boy ain't right...
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
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Post by bowyn on Oct 1, 2012 15:26:56 GMT -5
... I call that the equivalent of letting your knickers down.* * Koo koo ka choo! Might not be the most appropriate use of this, but that just made me snort diet coke out of my nose, so... +1 Go ahead and reset it, but IT HAPPENED!!!
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Post by long813 on Oct 2, 2012 17:02:09 GMT -5
For recording, some kind of USB/guitar interface might be handy: www.behringer.com/EN/Products/UCG102.aspxI use a Zoom G2nu modeller, which also can do that. I wouldnt have suspected that small difference in resistance to be significant. If you are up for one more test, I would suggest disconnecting the bridge pup from the volume pot (I think thats the black wire at this time), and take an output directly from that and ground. With all knobs in, that will be your full series humbucker with no other influence of wiring or pots, caps etc. it should sound as loud and clear as it will get. You could see if a guitar shop has a guitar with that pickup in it, (maybe unlikley), or at least let you try yours on a different amp. zthe thing is, if you try to explain this scheme to them, they will probably go WTF. John So the bridge is definitely quieter than my neck. I'm quite sure that the problem lays with the pickup, now the resistance I would assume is still 'good' which leads me to the magnet. I highly doubt that this could be it, but if it's demag'd then switching it out may fix it. If not, I just wasted money on buying these pickup magnets. Other option is to buy a new pickup. 80$ Is what I was quoted for it. Reasonable option, and I think it SHOULD work in the end. But what if it doesn't? Wouldn't that be fun. I'm going to give the local guitar shop's tech a shout tomorrow. Maybe he has a JB hanging around that we can use to 'test out'. Probably won't be the case, but if it were, then I could try out a new pickup before buying it. I messed around with pickup height some more... I used a standard that SD site had for reference. Although he states it's for equal pickups, I tried it anyways. Bridge is definitely louder now, but that is seemingly just a byproduct of the heights. What I was tying to do before, was to make them equal so I would be able to 'diagnose' them. Maybe that was the problem? I'm going to play around, to see if enjoy all the tones, just to make sure that it's right, or I at least like what I hear. Moving on I guess. One annoyance I have noticed is that the HB's don't move up and down in a leveled fashion. This must be a common issue for SD's as I find that the springs are to long and/or to tight. Any one have ideas on how to fix this? I was thinking about looking at some plasticy-TPU type material that I can cut to the properly dimensions and use that instead of a spring. Hopefully giving it enough tension to move up and down. ... The alternative is to look for looser fitting or shorter springs. haha.
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Post by long813 on Oct 3, 2012 11:49:46 GMT -5
To finish up the build thus far: A nice clean cavity second time around! And of the front, er sideways..and really blurry? I'll have to re take that shot. Next, I'm going to buy planet wave locking tuners. The tuners I have are quite crappy, a tiny turn can drop the string half a step. It's annoying to fine tune and plus, the PW's are pretty cool with their trim function. Sure I don't need it, and it's an expensive part, but when i start working I'll be buying them. The tools that make this all possible! Hakko FX-888 soldering station. Amazing unit. Used the digital model at school and it was a huge improvement over the crappy ones. Sure, I could have bought a cheaper Weller station, but the pencil shape iron is a major plus for me. It's extremely comfortable and I have better control. Worthy investment. Leatherman Squirt ES. Mini multitool with wire strippers. I've used this throughout my school career. It is the single most useful tool I've used. The screw driver is great for all the parts on a guitar and potentiometers (the small ones). The knife is useful, as is the 'probe' which helps me move around wires in a tight space. 63/37 Solder and lead solder. I don't like lead solder for health reasons, but there is no doubt it works better. A very close alternative though, is the 63/37 solder. The melting point is much lower which is very handy. I don't use external flux, but there is no doubt it would help the process. I've used it at work many times, but for home use I never felt the need to buy it. Last, but not least. The technical pencil you see there in all black. It's a Rotring 600 series technical pencil. My favourite besides the Pental P's. It has an amazing weight to it and a grip that works well with me. Schematics are a joy to create with it, but long writing can strain the hand.
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Post by long813 on Dec 18, 2012 22:11:42 GMT -5
Hmm... well I've recently noticed (or cared to address) significant hum in my guitar while on the bridge pickup. There is some slight hum on the neck, but it's quite minimal.
When the BV is up, the system is in series and the hum is greatly increased (as suspected). Everything leads to a grounding issue as when I touch the guitar it goes silent. I've made sure that the ground wire is hooked up, tested the continuity on each pot to pot, pot to jack, pot to tailpiece, pot to pickup screw, pot to toggle switch, pot to bridge.
Everything except the bridge reads 0.
Now, I thought that the ground wire connected from the tailpiece so there wouldn't actually be a connection from the pots to the bridge. Under this assumption, I can't quite tell where this hum is coming from.
Does anyone have any 'tricks' or insight as what to test next? Since the hum on the bridge is much more evident I tend to think there is a circuit-ground problem.
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Post by newey on Dec 18, 2012 23:40:45 GMT -5
That indicates that the string ground is properly connected.
Do you mean that you tested from the back of the pots? And what was the non-zero reading, from the back of one of the pots to the bridge? Did it read out-of-range, i.e. infinite resistance, or are you saying that you got a non-zero numerical value?
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Post by long813 on Dec 18, 2012 23:53:36 GMT -5
Yes. Back of one pot to the next destination (other pot, or tailpiece etc)
Woops, I edited out the last part. The bridge to each pot reads ~100 ohms.
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Post by newey on Dec 19, 2012 23:53:01 GMT -5
OK, the pot shell shows 0Ω to the tailpiece, the ground wire is attached to the tailpiece, and you've got a small resistance to the bridge. My guesstimation is that, since the bridge itself is being grounded by the strings through the tailpiece, the 100Ω resistance you're reading between the pot and the bridge is probably due to the strings not conducting well to the bridge, perhaps due to a coating thereon, or to the alloy used. Or, perhaps the problem lies in the plating used on the bridge. In any event, it seems meaningless, and unlikely to be the source of your noise problem. I'm stumped so far, unless the particular pickup just has a noise issue unique to it. At least, until someone comes up with a better explanation . . .
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Post by long813 on Dec 20, 2012 0:33:00 GMT -5
OK, the pot shell shows 0Ω to the tailpiece, the ground wire is attached to the tailpiece, and you've got a small resistance to the bridge. My guesstimation is that, since the bridge itself is being grounded by the strings through the tailpiece, the 100Ω resistance you're reading between the pot and the bridge is probably due to the strings not conducting well to the bridge, perhaps due to a coating thereon, or to the alloy used. Or, perhaps the problem lies in the plating used on the bridge. Bingo. It's black plated, which I suspect would have added resistance, but I'm surprised that the tailpiece was reading 0. So it's not just me! I ruled out the amp and cable simply because the noise is most prominent on the bridge pickup. Pickup problems? Sounds logical, but I sure hope not!
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Post by JohnH on Dec 20, 2012 14:28:57 GMT -5
I read back through the thread to try to remember what developed, with this JP type mod.
Could you summarise the curent status? it might lead to some thought: - lots of questions but if you could look at each one it will help:
Do all the sounds work?, and with the right phasing? Which settings hum? or hum most? which if any, are quiet?
Did we resolve the volume differences between the pickups?
Testing with a multimeter with one end on the jack barrel, what is grounded: all pot backs? bridge? strings? all wire braids? any bare wires from pickups? pickup covers (if any) or pickup baseplates? The metal parts of the toggle switch?
The target is to have a 'Yes' to all of those.
Did you use screened wire for all the runs up and down the cavity to the toggle switch? with braids grounded? If not, That would be the best thing to change.
Series ettings always have a bit more buzz than parallel ones, but should still be quite low if all is well. When you notice too much hum, are you using considerable amp gain or clean? is there any cavity shielding on it? I dont on my LP but it might help.
cheers John
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Post by long813 on Jan 4, 2013 22:58:26 GMT -5
I read back through the thread to try to remember what developed, with this JP type mod.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 4, 2013 23:45:45 GMT -5
If there is sound with bridge vol at 0, and that is in parallel mode (all knobs in) then it suggests that the cold lug of that pot is not getting grounded. better check that, and see if the resistance of the whole guitar when B vol is zero is not zero.
Such a problem would explain some hum, but the sounds would be thin or weak
If not that, shielding, and particularly using screened wire up and down the cavity as previously described - its very important. With the outer braids grounded (I mean the outer fine wires that wrap the inner core, as in a guitar cord or any audio cable.
J
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Post by sumgai on Jan 5, 2013 20:39:09 GMT -5
Just typical insulted wire, the same used for the pot to pot runs. No matter what kind of wire one might be using, I don't think anyone could insult it better than W.C. Fields... IMO, of course. (And no, I'm not gonna add this to my arsenal of signatures, it's kind of like a slinky - good for being pushed down the stairs the first time, but needs help to get back up.)
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Post by long813 on Jan 5, 2013 21:16:32 GMT -5
If there is sound with bridge vol at 0, and that is in parallel mode (all knobs in) then it suggests that the cold lug of that pot is not getting grounded. better check that, and see if the resistance of the whole guitar when B vol is zero is not zero. That's what I suspected. I'll check that out as well. The sounds aren't weak at all, which I guess is surprising. A coax, correct? Never knew a different wire was critical for the switch to pots. Learn something new each day. Just typical insulted wire, the same used for the pot to pot runs. No matter what kind of wire one might be using, I don't think anyone could insult it better than W.C. Fields... IMO, of course. Haha. Took me a few reads to understand what this was all about! Smooth!
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Post by long813 on Jan 6, 2013 17:36:07 GMT -5
So, Measuring BV (Gnd to Lug2.) R @ Vol 10 = 16.6K R @ Vol 0 = 80K Measuring VV (Gnd to Lug2.) R @ Vol 10 = 7.2K R @ Vol 0 = 7 So there a definite problems on the BV pot. You suspect that is an issue with the ground lug? Either way, it'll have to all come out ... it seems like I've been here before. I'll re read the thread to check again. I suspect something was knocked when it was placed it if that's the case.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 6, 2013 20:25:16 GMT -5
So, Measuring BV (Gnd to Lug2.) R @ Vol 10 = 16.6K R @ Vol 0 = 80K Measuring VV (Gnd to Lug2.) R @ Vol 10 = 7.2K R @ Vol 0 = 7 So there a definite problems on the BV pot. You suspect that is an issue with the ground lug? Either way, it'll have to all come out ... it seems like I've been here before. I'll re read the thread to check again. I suspect something was knocked when it was placed it if that's the case. Hi long By VV do you mean neck volume? and when that reads 7 when on 0 setting, is that 7 ohms or 7k?. Assuming its 7 ohms, then we have the issue with the bridge volume. With all knobs in, and vol at 0, the centre lug should indeed be grounded. So, first, could you please post a link here on this thread to the diagram that you are working from, because there were a few variations, and each time I look at this thread it takes a while to trace back to which one. Next, follow the diagram tracing from ground at the jack, all the way back to the bridge volume pot to identify the route by which the pot centre lug will be grounded when at 0. The pp switches connect connect their centre lugs to the lugs furthest from the pot when pushed in. Then follow this route measuring resistance to ground from jack barrel to each point on the route, until you find where it stops being 0 ohms and becomes a high value, or an anomalous wire is found. cheers John
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Post by 4real on Jan 6, 2013 21:14:54 GMT -5
You are in good hands...however, dare I say it...this is of course whey everyone should do their wiring on a cardborad template such that it can be tested as woorking untill it gets inside a tight control cavity...like so...
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Post by long813 on Jan 7, 2013 19:12:37 GMT -5
So, minor update. Now when I plug it in, the bridge is silent on 0 volume nad the hum is gone. So, from my suspicions, there is a connection that must have gotten knocked around and is 'hanging by a thread'. Must have been something getting crunched in the small space!
Yes and yes.
NV, and 0 ohms essentially.
Oh yes, there were plenty! I'll come back with that. Probably tomorrow.
Definitely! Thanks again.
@ 4real, yes. I've done all the work on a template. Very handy thing to do. There must have been a connection that was broken while moving it in, or from playing around. As I do recall everything was working correctly a few weeks/months ago and it was all tested prior to hooking it all up.
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Post by long813 on Jan 14, 2013 17:13:38 GMT -5
I'm in and out of working on this. But, a sad, but quick update.
As I was trying to remove the knob from the BV shaft, the shaft came right out of the pot. Theres nothing holding it in anymore, so... above all else, there is now a mechanical problem with the circuit. Horray.
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