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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 5:52:48 GMT -5
Hello, that's again related to my new guitar, which is an Ibanez ARZ800, and has a tune-o-matic type of bridge called "tight-tune" bridge. Factory specs say : 0.10s Strings, relief 0.30 mm and action @14th fret: 1.5 mm high E, 2mm low E. With these settings, the guitar plays wonderful, but the action feels a little bit too high on the unwound strings but also buzzes for low E especially when tuned to drop-D. When the action is low (in the ranks of, relief: ~ 0.15mm, and action 1.1mm-1.2 mm high E @12th fret, 1.6mm-1.8mm low E @12 fret), it plays amazingly buzz-free in all the high strings. In this aspect the fretwork at least on this sector of the fretboard is just fantastic (high E,B,G,D). However as i go up, in A i get some buzz, (which is tolerable), and especially in E the buzz gets so bad, that it made me take out the file and start leveling from 7th fret to the 14th. So i got into a situation, where if i wanted super fast shredding i had to sacrifice heavy riffing with drop-D, i play anything from blues, jazz, ethno, gypsy, greek, balkan, nu-metal, sliplknot, disturbed, old metal hard rock , all in one go! So, changing the set-up every time is not an option. The problem is that those types of bridges is that string height cannot be individually set. I also tried heavier strings, even went to 12's but the low E would still buzz!! and with the 0.052 the buzz sounds even worse : really loud! So, i have two questions here : 1) is my guitar in need for a fret dressing work? How is it possible to be just fantastic on the high strings and buzz in the lower? It is the first guitar in my life where i could play super clean cords on the first frets, with relief set to minimal... incredible... But also buzzes in low E. 2) is that possible that my bridge's radius is not in agreement with the frets radius? Anyway, i followed my own "gypsy" way of fixing things : I adjusted the guitar as low action as to feel really fast, but still sounding full, forgetting about the low E which buzzed like mad, and then made a little paper shim under the mini saddle of low E.Now i can enjoy fast licking/shredding while having the heavy drop-D riffing buzz free to the greatest possible extent. Thing is, by searching i never came across posts of people having done this on tune-o-matics. Are all tune-o-matics that good? i really doubt by the number of posts i read about "les paul low E buzz". But, i still have the question, ..... does my guitar suck in this aspect ? i tried to email the guys from where i bought it but no answer. (Also i learned that buying on-line from the x,y,z america/UK/german site is by far better than buying locally from Greece. Here people just abandon you after the sale. Its a shame.) So do i have to consider my guitar as an instrument that needs to be taken to a luthier for further examination ? Is it smth endemic to the les-paul species, i mean tune-o-matic peculiarities? And if yes, how other shredders deal with this? I have a good luthier back in my home town, which is a friend and customer of my sister's family, but i hesitate to send him my guitar, in the fear that maybe he damages the very good characteristics that it now has : like playing very good and buzz-free with ultra low action on the high strings. But also, i think that maybe it would be a piece of cake for him to fully analyze the problem and make sound good all over the fretboard. But in the few email messages we exchanged , he thought most probably this is a loose fret, which i did not buy, because nowhere does it seem to have loose frets.... So all things should be taken into consideration : nut (which BTW seems at least 0.30mm too high on the low E 1st fret, so definitely this could be lowered), fretwork the main suspects which prevent good clean buzz-free low action. So i have the delema : send it to a luthier or not? Also i often hear that cheap-o (or not so cheapo) chinese guitars leave the factory with minimal fret-work, they just saw the fretboard and then hammer the frets in. So most of them need a fret dressing out the box.. Is that true? Any thought welcome!!!
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 26, 2012 9:42:55 GMT -5
and has a tune-o-matic type of bridge called "tight-tune" bridge. That's a very nice bridge. Tunos are prone to saddle buzzing. The vertical screws on that bridge lock the saddles to the base after intonation has been set. However as i go up, in A i get some buzz, (which is tolerable), and especially in E the buzz gets so bad, that it made me take out the file and start leveling from 7th fret to the 14th. You're scaring me here. 1) is my guitar in need for a fret dressing work? Likely. If it didn't need leveling before, it probably does now. 2) is that possible that my bridge's radius is not in agreement with the frets radius? Yes, possible. But that's not too hard to measure. Anyway, i followed my own "gypsy" way of fixing things : I adjusted the guitar as low action as to feel really fast, but still sounding full, forgetting about the low E which buzzed like mad, and then made a little paper shim under the mini saddle of low E. Ew? Paper? The proper way would be to measure and hone a bit off the any saddles that are too high when the lowest two are adjusted to the correct height. But if only one is problematic, I suppose using metal shimstock under one to raise it wouldn't be too hideous. Of course any work to the nut and bridge would be done after the fretwork is dialed in just so. Are all tune-o-matics that good? Tunos generally aren't so great. (imho) So i have the delema : send it to a luthier or not? Depends on the luthier. If he's a hack, no. If he knows what he's doing, it can't be anything but good. Also i often hear that cheap-o (or not so cheapo) chinese guitars leave the factory with minimal fret-work, they just saw the fretboard and then hammer the frets in. So most of them need a fret dressing out the box.. Is that true? Might be true of the cheapest of the cheap. But Ibanez wouldn't put their name on something that didn't get at least a cursory pass with a radius block then the ends dressed and an overall polish. That said, guitars are made of wood. It's organic. It breathes, absorbs moisture, dries, swells and shrinks. It take a relatively long time for a guitar to settle down. I've never bought a new guitar (except for a few low-end models) and probably never will. After a guitar is a few years old, if it's fairly straight it's likely to stay that way. Any effort in getting it dialed in just so, won't be wasted. But that's just my personal take on things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 11:33:36 GMT -5
Doing some basic checks != doing real fret dressing job. I have read that only a few high guitars (Suhr, Gibson, etc...) have their instruments PLEK'd or otherwise fret dressed.
I doubt this is the case for a 700 euro ibanez.
Also, the ibanez factory book says action 1.5mm and 2.0mm respectively, which is in practical terms so huge that even completely fret-damaged guitars would sound great which such action. I even increased my partscaster's action/relief to that specs and now it is ultra massive tone-wise.
But a guitar in order to be considered set-up correctly and of a certain quality *has* to be able to play nice with low action. Every guitar plays well with high action.
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 26, 2012 12:35:52 GMT -5
I have read that only a few high guitars (Suhr, Gibson, etc...) have their instruments PLEK'd or otherwise fret dressed. pyrros, I think something got lost in the translation here. It's absolutely true that Plek is a procedure employing very expensive computer controlled equipment to get ultra-precise results while removing the least amount of fret material necessary. But the "otherwise" part of that statement is troubling. Frets can and are dressed by simpler (manual) means.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 12:58:35 GMT -5
I have read that only a few high guitars (Suhr, Gibson, etc...) have their instruments PLEK'd or otherwise fret dressed. pyrros, I think something got lost in the translation here. It's absolutely true that Plek is a procedure employing very expensive computer controlled equipment to get ultra-precise results while removing the least amount of fret material necessary. But the "otherwise" part of that statement is troubling. Frets can and are dressed by simpler (manual) means. PLEK costs about 200 USD, and they say that the results often are inferior to the job of an experienced luthier. Even in Greece (which is supposed to be cheap) a fret work costs around 100 EUR (in Athens this price is minimum, often they charge more). I doubt a guitar of 700 euros where the 2 EMGs alone + electronics which would amount to 200 EUR already could fall in that category. Unless in China, they are some supermen luthiers working 24x7 with maximal reliability. Ok, they are good, they are very cheap, but additional work is needed in order to have a perfect product. Or to put it otherwise : remember when Carvin advertised their guitars of being able to get buzz free 3/64' high E @17th fret? They had it, that's why they advertised it. Ibanez low end models simply do not have it, that's why the specs have so huge numbers in order to be OK by the book. Bottom line : this is a great sounding guitar, but fret work (if any) was lousy from the factory. If a guitar with that specs/parts and that sound was perfectly setup, it would cost way more than 700 i think. Maybe that's why we pay more or less depending on the product... Also about Ibanez putting its name on some guitar, they have a pretty number of entry models which cost 100-200 USD, and also Fender has (squire) and Gibson (Epis) and so on... And sure a lot of epis are just ... plain garbage... So the name does not mean much except for added cost. I am not alone who has those issues, search the net and you'll see tons of ppl like me.
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 26, 2012 13:27:21 GMT -5
One thing you may want to check is the nut. Setting the action can sometimes be difficult if the nut has been cut too low. Fortunately it is also a reasonably easy fix. If you had the right nut files and a few simple tools you could even do it yourself. This is a very well detailed thread of the procedure: How to slot a nut to depth in 5 minutes. If one of your frets is a little high you should be able to easily figure out which one just by using a homemade fret rocker. Either of these are the first I'd look into to narrow the problem down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 13:57:52 GMT -5
One thing you may want to check is the nut. Setting the action can sometimes be difficult if the nut has been cut too low. Fortunately it is also a reasonably easy fix. If you had the right nut files and a few simple tools you could even do it yourself. This is a very well detailed thread of the procedure: How to slot a nut to depth in 5 minutes. If one of your frets is a little high you should be able to easily figure out which one just by using a homemade fret rocker. Either of these are the first I'd look into to narrow the problem down. Fenderbender, thanx for the tips. The nut (as i mentioned) is quite high, as in most new Ibanez's. This alone creates an apriori handicap to the whole "action height" thing. It is extremely difficult to have adequate action if you add a useless 0.3mm to all strings. Thing with the nut, cause it is a pretty looking guitar, i do not have the guts to touch it. I have done 2 nuts, including a brass one for my partscaster, which i managed to fit almost perfect, but on this new one... Also i do not have experience with "Les paul" type guitars, only strats. Now the pointer about the fret rocker is very useful, thanx!
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 26, 2012 15:03:46 GMT -5
Also i do not have experience with "Les paul" type guitars, only strats. Nice thing about frets - they don't care what type of guitar it is. The point of that link was to show that that technique works on any kind of guitar. And for the record, no matter how pretty the guitar is, it's better to fix an issue then leave it and never be satisfied with its performance.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 23:36:12 GMT -5
Also i do not have experience with "Les paul" type guitars, only strats. Nice thing about frets - they don't care what type of guitar it is. The point of that link was to show that that technique works on any kind of guitar. And for the record, no matter how pretty the guitar is, it's better to fix an issue then leave it and never be satisfied with its performance. In my case i would have to remove the nut and file its bottom. I was referring to the point of removing the nut and re-glueing back in. Never done it with a "les paul"-ish kind of guitar. Now about frets not caring about what kind of guitar it is, hmmmm, maybe so, but also maybe scale length and geometry of the neck-line (bow profile) and the bridge play their role as well. And those parameters are night vs day between LPs and strats.
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Post by sumgai on Sept 27, 2012 0:41:21 GMT -5
Now about frets not caring about what kind of guitar it is, hmmmm, maybe so, but also maybe scale length and geometry of the neck-line (bow profile) and the bridge play their role as well. And those parameters are night vs day between LPs and strats. (emphasis added) Sorry, but I gotta step in here.... In point of fact, the factors you mentioned are applicable to every guitar (hell, every fretted instrument, period). The fact that it was made to visually copy a certain appearance has nothing to do with it. The final, and in fact the only controlling factor is the player's wishes. Trust me, I've seen all manner of players walk through my shop door, with all manner of guitars from absolute throw-away trash to $8,000 Parkers and it doesn't matter who made the axe, all that matters is what the user wanted it to do (in terms of playability). In most cases, the luthier (not me!!) was able to make it happen, and in nearly all cases, he/she did it for a price that the player felt was fair (but could've' been cheaper!). In fact, at no time in my history of guitar/amp repair have I ever heard of a luthier telling a player something like "now if your Strat were actually a Les Paul, then I could do that, sure. But setting up a Strat like you just described - no way". That would be just about the quickest way to go out of business, I can assure you of that. Two points to ponder (and I know you like to think of all the angles before you make a move (wise of you)): a) Is there any kind of warranty, particularly of usability? In the USA, we have such a thing, and players who buy expensive instruments can force a store to either make it playable, or buy it back. b) Before you joined us in The NutzHouse, we had a fella named ChrisK. Chris always had a viewpoint that was very hard to argue with, because he always made sense. You might not like what he said, or how he said it, but you had to admit, he was still right. One of his more profound statements was that no matter who made the guitar, and no matter how much you paid for it, just plan on having a professional luthier set it up before you can take it home. His point was that neither the factory nor the dealer takes the time to do a final setup before the axe gets put out on the sales floor. Call it a sign of the times (economic problems or whatever), but Chris was and is right - I can walk into any guitar store in America, pickup any axe off the shelf, and find at least one fault with it, usually right away. To me, that means that the number on the price tag is just a starting point in the negotiations..... how much discount will they give me, versus will they have their own (in-house) luthier do a final setup before I take it home? I humbly suggest that this is one time you might wish to at least consult with a luthier, meaning that you should get a second opinion on what's needed to correct the problem(s). HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 2:11:27 GMT -5
Sumgai, thanx for your thoughts man! and for spending the time to write them down! I think ChrisK was absolutely correct in this. Problem is that sales people in Greece *SUCK*. The worse kind of species in the whole planet. While i was testing the guitar (i had brought my own equipment - pedals to make for a fair comparison gear-wise, i have at home), the guy said : nahhhhhh you are doing it all wrong!!! (f***k you i said inside me, silently), then when i started measuring sustain (at that time - 1 month ago, i was thinking sustain is an indication of health for an instrument), he stepped right over my head and started watching like i was an alien or something. 2-3 days later i sent him an email about an amp i tested there, and he replied immediately, later, after one month fixing/setting up the guitar i sent him an email about the frets problems, he just ..... never replied. I know what you guys have in the US, you can return a product in one month, or make other negotiations. In Greece, you just get ripped off, and then those guys do not even remember you. That is the neo-greek mentality. No options left for the buyer. I could buy the same instrument from Thomann.de for same price + better bag, better return options. But i wanted to help the sinking greek economy, at a time when people do not real buy any "luxury" items. Anyway, the guitar has a fantastic sound, is set-up at the moment to a point when i can do heavy-riffing, drop-D, and shred at the same time, so maybe it is much more i could buy with that money. I am happy. 100%. I have two of my guitars (aria strat-copy - whose frets/nut are dead- and my new partscaster who both need major fret work). I will send them to a guy in my home town ( www.guitars.gr/ ) who is sending his children to my sister (she is a kid doctor) and will take care of my stuff and see the result. If it is good then i'll send him my Kramer 210 and the Ibanez. I'll have to hurry up before his kids grow up and stop going to my sister's office, Samgai, man, if i was near your town i'd love to come and have my gear fixed there! Just out of curiosity, how much do you charge a fret-dressing, how much nut work, and how much a refret? Thanx!
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 27, 2012 8:16:46 GMT -5
Now about frets not caring about what kind of guitar it is, hmmmm, maybe so, but also maybe scale length and geometry of the neck-line (bow profile) and the bridge play their role as well. And those parameters are night vs day between LPs and strats. Well...yes and no. Yes there is a difference in neck angles on a carved top vs. a flat top but it ends there and as you mentioned is purely a consequence of the geometry involved due to hardware and top profiles. Either style of guitar can be setup with a very low action if that's what you want. You did touch on one of the issues: fingerboard radius. With your typical Strat (new models) it's generally a 9.5". With LP's the radius is 12". Neither is conducive to lower actions without a few tricks employed. Guitars like the Ibanez shredders have a flatter board. Usually 16" radius and sometimes compound. That is say 14" at the nut and 16" at the heel. Flatter boards are easier (in general) to get lower actions because the peak of the radius stays out of the way. That said, any competent luthier can put a tiny bit of 'fall away' on the last few frets of tighter radius boards. This allows a smidge more leeway in getting the action low while preventing buzzing on frets. BTW, that bridge and stop tail are drop dead sexy.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 8:29:37 GMT -5
BTW, that bridge and stop tail are drop dead sexy. yeah, especially now with the paper shim, they are not only drop dead sexy but unique as well ;D, anyway, i am still not relaxed, maybe i got into obsession mode, i started watching sustain again, did some 10 secs (YES!!) on G and B @12th fret, but then tried E (i must have done it 100 times till now) and it gave me a lousy 5 secs which is slightly better than the partscatser on which the "fat finger" thread is dedicated Maybe i should relax, enjoy the guitar(s), and when i find time, either overhaul the guitars myself after buying the tools, or send the guitars to a good luthier. Perfection never ends. At the state i am at the moment, even if i go to a good luthier, then smth else will start bothering me.... I am in a state of perfection-hunting which is just eating up my time (=life).
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 27, 2012 9:14:05 GMT -5
I think FB hit it on the head. The amount of relief and the fingerboard radius will be the major determining factors in insanely low action.
Your style will be another major factor in how playable the insanely low action will be for you. Major string bends and a heavy hand will even make a PLEK'd neck with extremely low action set by the best tech out there virtually unplayable.
And the paper shim...well, that's already been covered... Band Aids only cover the wound, they never heal it.
SG makes a point in that nothing off the rack is going to be 100% for you. The variations can be staggering even with guitars from the same builder and lot. A good tech can get you very close. I would add one caveat...and it's a big one... Your style will make some instruments unsuitable for you.
Case in point, if you're a heavy string bender then low action is not your friend...and a JEM with .1mm relief and 1.5mm string height at the 24th fret will be an instrument you'll hate. To make it playable for 3-5 note bends you'll need to defeat all of the design features on it to make it useful for you.
Years ago in a galaxy far, far away...with hair...I played with one of the best guitars I ever played with. He had an arsenal of guitars. One day I asked him what the point was, as you can only play one at a time. His answer made sense. He explained that each guitar had it's own "personality" and made him look for what the guitar wanted him to play. In other words, each guitar presented advantages as well as limitations, so he took it as a challenge to develop the style and technique necessary to get the most out of each instrument. Over time I began to perceive what guitar he used to write his songs on based on what direction the song went. When I pointed it out to him he said it was his sure fire cure from falling into predicable patterns of playing and getting stale.
Granted, not everyone is going to invest the time, or have the desire to expand their playing for intrinsically different instruments. The most common response is to force every guitar into the same mold. If the only tool you can use is a hammer, than every problem becomes a nail.
Pyrros, I've heard you play, and you play very well. Your style does require certain design factors that every guitar may not be able to offer you. Ask yourself, why do certain guitar Gods have a signature instrument? Because it fits their style of playing. Steve Vai had a Strat when he played with Zappa...once Ibanez built a JEM to his spec (and provided some serious coin) he's rarely seen without one. Stevie Ray played Strats and excelled on them. Imagine Vaughn on a JEM...
As much as we've carped here about bad setups in guitar shops, the one thing we rarely discuss is the lack of knowledge of the owners\clerks at said guitar stores in helping you select the right guitar for your style. This is my strongest reservation in buying a guitar over the Internet, but that's another thread entirely...
Without reiterating everything that is already out there on the Internet on setting up a guitar, I would suggest you find a setup for this guitar that works without buzzing or other unacceptable quirks and see what you can do with it. Spend some time with this setup and see what comes out of you. If it still doesn't speak to you you can always sell it off.
Not much technical help here, but sometimes you have to take a step back to get a better perspective.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 10:29:11 GMT -5
^^^ wow man!! thanx for all the help! You are quite right! however i see people with this particular guitar doing this : and finally this : so it fits all my styles!!! sound-wise its fantastic, its only ergonomics which need improvement
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 14:11:44 GMT -5
update,
after Cynical's last post i decided to undo the paper shim hack (it took about 1 minute), and reverted the guitar to its original 12' radius state.
I was surprised that for some reason, it now plays way better. I spend 1 hour full of happy shredding. Almost great. Cannot down tune, ok, because it would buzz, ok, but after all i am having :
1) 1.5mm action at 24th fret - high E 2) 2.0mm action at 24th fret - low E 3) 0.010s Daddario string gauge, which is both light and prone to buzz anyway
The above action translates to 1.2mm @12th fret, high E, and 1.6mm @12th fret low E
So it is ultra low....
No the new problems :
1) Why does it feel equally easy to shred in my partscaster with much higher (almost double) action, bigger scale and 0.11s strings ? 2) What path should i follow in order to incorporate down tuning into the above picture, without doing hacks like the paper shim?
Or should i just raise the action to the ibanez and learn to play that way?
Thing is, that was the initial thought, i made the partscaster ultra hard to play : 0.11s, 2mm action - 2.5 respectively at 12th fret, in order to make stronger hands for the ibby... but it seems this didn't work as i always went the path to lower action...
Hmmmmm, lets leave this settle down a little bit....
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Post by sumgai on Sept 27, 2012 14:39:46 GMT -5
.... anyway, i am still not relaxed, maybe i got into obsession mode, i started watching sustain again, did some 10 secs (YES!!) on G and B @12th fret, but then tried E (i must have done it 100 times till now) and it gave me a lousy 5 secs which is slightly better than the partscatser ..... Forgive me, but I don't recall reading anywhere that you've changed the strings since buying it. And for the record, it's been known to happen that a whole batch (perhaps as many as 12 boxes of 10 sets each) can all have the same bad string. For that reason, you might switch brands too, just to eliminate that possibility. And sorry to say, I'm not a luthier at all. I did/still occasionally do repair work to electrical and electronic stuff. I set up my own guitar, but my needs are simple. If I ever need extensive work done, I'll go to one of the top luthiers in the area, and pay the money for what I know I can't do correctly. But if it's an amp you need to have fixed, then sure, drop by and we'll discuss what's needed and how much it'll cost. HTH sumgai
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Post by 4real on Sept 27, 2012 17:10:49 GMT -5
Good plan...
I've only taken a curory peak at this thread. One thing that nearly always is the case is that stores will often not adjust the truss rod at all! Just saying. The last thing one should do is take a file to the frets...
You might need a professional set up...
But also, bear in mind that a lot of 'shred' guitars really do buzz a lot but this can't be heard through all the distortion anyway!
Taking 'specs' on action too can be misleading. If you like lower tunings then perhaps lift the action higher on the bass side, perhaps even go further and consider a light top, heavy bottom string set to take the lower tuning with more tension on the low strings.
It looks like quite a nice guitar though and the best thing to do is to live with it a while, do slow (non permanent adjustments...so no filing) till things work for you as you'd like. Largely any guitar will have to be a compromise. A string needs a certain amount of room to vibrate in beforre it hits the frets you understand, most 'shreders' will live with fret buzz because the amplification and tone is more than enough to mask that side of things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 23:10:16 GMT -5
It looks like quite a nice guitar though and the best thing to do is to live with it a while, do slow (non permanent adjustments...so no filing) till things work for you as you'd like. Largely any guitar will have to be a compromise. It surely it. Strange thing is that, while they promote it as as being the ultimate drop-down shred machine for the average Cristian post-hardcore band of the nu era (nu!!), for me it was the most jazzy-bluesy of all my guitars! Even the partscaster felt more ... metalic and shreddy! So it definitely has a fantastic sound, and the EMG pickups are nothing close to a dimarzio super distortion or a seymour duncan livewire, they are much more mellow and clean and gentle. A string needs a certain amount of room to vibrate in beforre it hits the frets you understand, most 'shreders' will live with fret buzz because the amplification and tone is more than enough to mask that side of things. solo-wise definitely. But riff-wise (in drop-tune mode), unfortunately the buzz passes through the amp, and the full fat tone gets lost. Maybe its just my amp i don't know, or just my boss me-25 effect unit, maybe that could be a factor. The question, is how do people (like Jim Root with its tele) manage to shred in drop-A!!! what kind of 13's gauge or smth close they have to put on in order to have a tension... I tried 12's well only low E, it was a .052, and it does not seem very natural, plus it needs huge space to vibrate, since it is a huge string.... never mind... Thank you for your thoughts!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 23:18:30 GMT -5
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Post by 4real on Sept 28, 2012 1:02:50 GMT -5
Hmmm...so are you tuning the entire guitar down, or just the low strings. I had not realized it ahd a longer scale, that will be more a baritine kind of thing by the sounds of it and so increase the tension for the lower tunings. The lower and thicker the strings regardless, the more room will be required for the strings to move I find. My guitars generally have a higher action that 'shred' type guitars though...
I'd lift the bass strings so they can vibrate free at really low tunings without hitting the frets.
It may well be that you find it easier to play some styles, like legato (satriani like) things with pull offs and hammer ons with a slightly higher action than some, gives your finger a chance to pull on the strings a bit more. The thing is that the higher the action the more force and time it's going to take to play cleanly which will slow anyone down...that's why people like that super low action, super light strings...with distortion you barely need to pick to go fast with that kind of style I dare say.
I tend to go the other way, clean, higher action and no buzzing...but not much use for that kind of style. My recent gutiar has 10-58 or soemthing and can be detuned to B, never tried A, but the string is loose even with the longer 'fender' scale I must say...not buzzing, but the intonation is off and things do 'flap around'. A quick measure though, I see the low E of mine is about 2mm at the 12th fret (top of fret to bottom of string) which surprises me. It does have a fair 'relief' in it I must say. It can auto tune down to C and plucking it pretty hard (open) it does not hit any frets...but fretting it, it starts to buzz unless lightly played above the fifth fret. I suspect most of this is because the string is vibration in a pretty wide arch. I don't 'smash' this gutiar though, it's a finger picking thing, so with light plucking the strings do ring true.
Not sure if that helps!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 3:09:24 GMT -5
of course it helps!, i am talking about E tuning, low E dropped to D, classic drop-D.
What puzzles me is that with my current set, dadarios 10-46, it plays almost good in drop-D. But when i replace the low E with a daddario 0.052 then it buzzes like crazy and real bad... i dont like this.... Maybe as sumgai said this is problematic?
next, i will slightly try to add some relief, nonetheless it should help a little bit. But generally, it is a compromise. Physics place certain limits to things!
Also, i will try DR tite-fit next time, i heard they buzz a lot less than daddario's.
PS
and something more.... nut action plays a great deal in participating in the whole situation... If we have a high nut action, then we are ultra clean in the opens, but need to lift both relief and bridge height in order to have clean tones in fretted notes, if we are about to have a sane string action height. If we sacrifice a little bit the open note (especially low E), then we give a chance to have an adequate string action where all the benefit of the bridge height goes to *ALL* the fretted notes!!! So if a nut is low we just screw one note, if the nut is too high maybe we should screw all the rest in order to have an acceptable string action height (like 2mm like you said, low E @12th, which i find rational).
As an idea, how about writing all our specs in a formulated manner, and/or with some variations? (e.g. capo on 1st fret or not, etc....) which would include almost any measurement in the guitar? nut/action/relief/pup height/etc?
What do you guys think?
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Post by 4real on Sept 28, 2012 5:35:44 GMT -5
I'll be away for a few days...but maybe...there could be some problems as every instrument is different.
I actually use 10-48 on my acoustic and easily drops to D with a dropped D and fairly short scale (gibson like) and 10-46's on electrics generally which are also fine with a ffarly low action. Droping to C or B or...well A...now the low string is going to be flapping about.
If the Buzz is in the bridge or nut, that is a different issue, can't see why a different string set would have less buzz...might be missing something there.
You are right, the nut height can be a problem too, and again everyones is going to be different. I'm not into shredding but a good clean tone which often means a much higher action than otheres would like. A long scale guitar is likely also to be quite different in many respects I'm guessing. Measure ments are generally not enough, perhaps a guide...but sure, what I can do when time.
It might be a call for a pro though, especailly if you've run a file on the frets already...perhaps a little over enthusiastic if so...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 6:23:15 GMT -5
4real, thanx for your input man. If the Buzz is in the bridge or nut, that is a different issue, can't see why a different string set would have less buzz...might be missing something there. This guy says : www.ibanezrules.com/tech/setup/action.htm (which is a very good setup guide as well) It might be a call for a pro though, especailly if you've run a file on the frets already...perhaps a little over enthusiastic if so... I regret this leveling on the frets, hands down. But it was on 8th->14th fret low E, which are IMHO among the least played notes/frets no matter the style. I am hesitating to send it to any pro, because the rest 5 strings play just "wonderful", i mean really low action and 2 tone bends? and very clean, huge sustain, i am afraid the random greek "pro" will just ruin my guitar. I would like to take it to a pro once there is accumulated real work to be done, and after the instrument has settled down.
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Post by 4real on Sept 28, 2012 6:40:37 GMT -5
Fair enough, an interesting bit of reading...rediculously bad type and colour...
This was part of what I am getting at. It is not a competition for the lowest action, action is what works for you..as that guy says too.
Hopefully you've not done too much on those frets, the problem with things like that is that it is a really tricky job for specialist tools (I'm not any good at it) and once you start taking things off, it can't be put back...probably be ok, but a risky move till every other avenue is explored.
If the 'problem' is the los strings, I suggest that likely the action will need to be a bit higher down there to accmodate a big string swinging low. The longer scale length is likely to be of assistance I'd imagine. I'm not sure what strings they suggest for this guitar and those kinds of tunings, but perhaps ligter would work as well as another.
Not heard of such strings, perhaps they have a different core to winding ratio or something.
Ok, better go, keep adjusting...often such things take little increments of things like height and ration and even strings to get it to be just right for what you want and feels right for you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 6:51:50 GMT -5
Thanx, take care on your trip man.
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 28, 2012 6:53:11 GMT -5
I regret this leveling on the frets, hands down. Wait...did you file the frets yourself?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 8:14:43 GMT -5
I regret this leveling on the frets, hands down. Wait...did you file the frets yourself? How else do you think i got promoted to "Senior switch wirer" ? No pain no gain Seriously, what i did was to lower those frets (8th-14th low E) from around 1.00-1.06mm to 0.87 mm height. Did not notice any excessive buzz besides the 14th fret boundary, i mean at a certain low action, they buzz anyway. Sometimes the buzz is not due to the next fret but the one after it or the even the next one after that, etc... hard to tell exactly.
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Post by fenderbender on Sept 28, 2012 9:26:23 GMT -5
Seriously, what i did was to lower those frets (8th-14th low E) from around 1.00-1.06mm to 0.87 mm height. Did not notice any excessive buzz besides the 14th fret boundary, i mean at a certain low action, they buzz anyway. Sometimes the buzz is not due to the next fret but the one after it or the even the next one after that, etc... hard to tell exactly. Did you make sure the neck was dead flat before you attacked it? See, just filing away without taking some preliminary steps can cause more problems than the original issue. EG: Neck not flat when you filed the frets might bite you later if you need to adjust the truss rod in the future. It's your guitar and you can certainly do what you want to it but you should look up some tutorials before diving in head first. I hope you get it sorted.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2012 10:44:29 GMT -5
Neck was most probably flat, cause I took care to have the rest 5 of strings at full tension, while normally i have a slight relief, and which means most probably the neck was dead flat. IIRC i also put a str8 edge on the neck to make sure it was flat. Will make the following measurements when i get home:
- how bad was the leveled frets lowered - What is the current relief & 7th fret
and report back
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