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Post by karpetking on Oct 11, 2005 16:42:15 GMT -5
Hello everyone, i've been waiting a good while to post this. here goes.....
Firstly - does anyone know where i can get information about the wiring up of rotary switches? - i would like to wire up a guitar so that each of its two humbuckers has one of these rotary switches to select-
*coil one *coil two *both series in phase *both series out of phase *both parallel in phase *both parallel out of phase
i'd like to know how these switches work to begin with - i should be able to figure this out if i knew how they work.
i'd also like to have another of these rotary switches to select- *pickup one (however it is set above, with its own rotary switch) *pickup two (ditto) *both series in phase (etc) *both series out of phase () *both parallel in phase () *both parallel out of phase ()
with a push/pull pot for each controlling volume one way, and tone the other.
i realise that some of the sounds made on some settings may well be awful, and it wouldn't be the easiest thing to change live, but i want as many sounds as possible, to put through effects and record, etc. in these circumstances, any sound can be useful.
can anyone help me?
i'd like to read about audio electronics - grounding, components, etc. in general. i have looked around quite a bit already. can anyone point me in the direction of an in depth place to find all of this?, possibly somewhere that starts with the basics and works up from there?
thanks to anyone who can help me!!
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Post by Mike Richardson on Oct 11, 2005 16:47:49 GMT -5
Yes, it can be done, but as you noted, the guitar will be worthless in a live situation. To make matters worse, you have to find room for 3 rotary switches PLUS any volume and tone pots you'll need. The 3 switches will provide 216 sounds, but many of them will be useless.
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 11, 2005 17:48:18 GMT -5
how they work? pretty straight forward. 1 moving contact (pole) and multiple positions ("throws") in each section. sometimes more than one section on each wafer. often more than one wafer.
what you've described will require 3 pole 6 position switches.
once you have one in your hands it's easy to see where the poles are and where the "throws" are.
a strat superswitch has 4 poles, 5 positions. if you can settle for one less option, you can use them.
i seem to remember a link in a previous post (maybe stratlover?). the link went to a japanese site that had all sorts of permutations of pickup switching. wouldn't be a bad place to go to school. as far as pickup switching goes, on this forum, read all the posts by wolf and johnH and follow the links to their websites.
other recommendations for learning on the on the web: max robinson, r.g. kean, randall aiken, and duncan monroe.
U.M.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 11, 2005 20:41:32 GMT -5
This (rambling) thread, contains thoughts from Runewalker and myself on series/parallel wiring, including an HH design with rotaries for each pup (about page 5 on I think). There also SSS and HSH designs: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1117172128&page=1The latest HH design is this (schematic and wiring diagrams): people.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HHwiring3.gifpeople.smartchat.net.au/~l_jhewitt/circuits/HHseriesparallels5wayschematicMk2.gifNote the wiring diagram is not quite tested yet. I am confident in the schematic, (until UnklMickey finds a problem!) The multipole rotaries that you need can be got from Mouser. There's some great opportunities with this approach, but my advice, if you want a practical guitar is: - Have a rotary for each pup, but not for putting the pups in combination. Just a simple three-way would be fine, or with another toggle for overall series/parralel if you want to (which our design has)
- Consider scraping the parallel out of phase option (its very thin and weak) - series out of phase is better.
- With this, you done need an overall phase switch
Wire up each rotary as shown, it it will automatically give you a range of in and out of phase combos when combined with the other pup. And the best part is that they can mostly be hum cancelling, by carefully selecting which coils are selected, as shown. And once it is wired, just forget that, all the best sounds are at your fingertips. John
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 11, 2005 22:15:10 GMT -5
Note the wiring diagram is not quite tested yet. I am confident in the schematic, (until UnklMickey finds a problem!) i thought i felt my ears burnin'. hi JohnH. well, first pass at the schematic looks okay enough. took me quite a few minutes to figure out whats goin' on with the PU selector, blend pot, and s/p switch. let's see if i understand this right. in the parallel config. the switch selects which is full on, the other is by default blended. in the series config. the neck is shunted partially by the blend and the bridge is full on except when the select is to the right. (then there's no output at all.) if that's what you're goin' for, it looks fine. another option is to use a third switch just like the 2 5way pup switches and select 5 choices of s/p, phase, and singles. no blend. my guess is you already have a drawing for that. (you always seem to be one step ahead of what i'm thinking.) i would have wired the 5way switches in a different sequence, but that's the beauty of a rotary or superstrat switch -- move a few wires around and you get the sequence that fits you best! U.M.
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Post by JohnH on Oct 11, 2005 22:47:45 GMT -5
Hi UnklM
in the parallel config. the switch selects which is full on, the other is by default blended. in the series config. the neck is shunted partially by the blend and the bridge is full on except when the select is to the right. (then there's no output at all.) if that's what you're goin' for, it looks fine.
Thats right - it is a fairly simple version of a blend, which would work well as a 'no-load' pot. What you say above is as intended, although since building a 3-pup design, I think there are better ways to do a blend. I think a blend is completely optional - and not essential.
another option is to use a third switch just like the 2 5way pup switches and select 5 choices of s/p, phase, and singles. no blend. my guess is you already have a drawing for that. (you always seem to be one step ahead of what i'm thinking.)
I dont have a drawing for that one - the thing is, it would mess with the rather nice hum cancelling properties of this circuit. As drawn, any non-humcanelling option on the bridge, mixed with any similar non-hum cancelling option on the neck, together is hum cancelling. If you mix the same single coils on neck and bridge, you get in-phase hum cancelling, and if different single coils are mixed, you get out of phase hum cancelling. Each individual pup out of phase is not hum cancelling, but put two together and they are hum cancelling. In system-parallel mode, you can even get hum cancelling with a single coil, plus series-out-of phase on the other pup. This gives lots of good quiet combos.
The thinking behind it is that, for the non humcancelling pup configurations, the bridge always produces hum in the opposite phase direction to that of the neck. Any switch which overall swaps the phase of the whole pup, would make alot of hum adding options. That is why I would not add a third 5-pole switch. You miss out on some options, but think it still covers a very wide range
i would have wired the 5way switches in a different sequence, but that's the beauty of a rotary or superstrat switch -- move a few wires around and you get the sequence that fits you best!
Thats true. My thought is to try to put them in order of tone, from deepest(series in phase) to brightest (out of phase). I have these sounds (with a different wiring) on my old Shergold, and thats how they sound to me.
cheers
John
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Post by karpetking on Oct 12, 2005 3:43:38 GMT -5
thanks everyone, and those yet to reply. looks like i've got a fair bit there to read through. i'm sure i'll be posting back later with some more questions. i would like to mention that the guitar in question is an epiphone les paul special ii www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=21&CollectionID=3(the first electric guitar that i got when i was 16 - people were right to say that you should never get rid of this sort of stuff if you enjoy playing it - i still regret getting rid of my acoustic twelve string, don't miss the finger destroying action, though). Anyway... i will have to drill two extra holes for controls, in the typical les paul places if i go with my original idea - and i don't really want to put strat type controls on it. the 3 way selector hole would become a 6 way rotary for one pickup, with the current tone hole becoming the other pickup's 6-way. the current volume control would become where the pickup selector will be - either a 3 way, or six way, depending on what i go with. i think there should be enough room in the cavity already there to add the other two holes for volume/tone controls. i've never fitted pots or rotary switches to a guitar before - will there be enough shaft on any pot to go in this guitar (not through a pickguard)? is it only a proper, thick, les paul where you need longer shafts? can anyone see any problems with any of my ideas? also, i'd like to properly shield it, too, while i'm thinking about it.
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 17, 2005 22:27:57 GMT -5
John's HH design accepted some compromizes on not obtaining every differnent combo, just because you could --= in deference to making every available selection both singular in sound and usabable. In addition, maximizing hum cancelling was the other design objective. These were achieved readily, and while the rotaries are not as visually intuitive as a lever switch or minis, they are emminently usable, as I have a similar structure in a rotary on a Gibby L6S. It becomes second nature rapidly. A couple of chicken head knobs and you get your visual feedback, in addition to 50's retro cool. i've never fitted pots or rotary switches to a guitar before - will there be enough shaft on any pot to go in this guitar (not through a pickguard)? is it only a proper, thick, les paul where you need longer shafts? This question is not insignificant because finding these relatively exotic switches and pots (at least exotic for guitar building) with long bushings is very difficult. The bushings on many of the switches with greater capabilities are often 1/4" which barely fits on a strat toneplastic pickgaurd, when used with washers. With a back routed guitar it is potentially a risky endeavor. Since yours is backrouted and bolt on, I assume it is not carve topped. If carved top it would be quite a manuver to use the technique I am about to describe. I have done this on a couple of backrouted guitars useing 5/16" and 1/4" bushings. To do so I used a Forstner bit (large, round flat bottomed bit) in a drill and removed wood from the backrouted cavity, until there was only about 1/8th to 3/16" of meat between the finished surface and the backrouted cavity surface. This gets a little nerve racking, as one slip means the face is ruined. The other issue with this approach is to make sure that you don't drill at an angle. This will make the pot knobs womperjawed, and bug you incessenently as you play. You can avoid this with long bushings. However most of these swithches, like the 5 way rotary described in this thread, are designed for panel installations on relatively thinwalled sheet metal or chassis metal. Whereever possible seek long bushings to avoid the drilling procedure. Rational was on the rotary HH config w
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 18, 2005 11:51:12 GMT -5
RW,
you must have nerves of steel to have tried that one the first time! even if you practiced on junk wood, i'll bet you were sweatin' pretty hard when you were back-drilling the real deal.
here's an idea to make your life a little easier.
using your method, or a plunge router if you're lucky enough to have one, you can stop short if you have the right hardware.
when i was a kid, installing car stereo, we used something we called "reach nuts" (not sure if that was the real name or we just tagged them with it.) they look like really long nuts with 80% of the body turned down to a diameter thats just a bit bigger than the threads on the inside. the remaining 20% is just hex like a regular nut. you drill the mounting hole large enough for the turned down part to go into the hole.
backdrilling to just the right depth would probably look better, but for someone who's a bit weak in the knees, the reach nuts might be safer.
womperjawed? is that derived from the same slang as cattywompus?
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Post by karpetking on Oct 19, 2005 4:03:22 GMT -5
Thanks for all the replies, and the idea, though i think i may need to hold some sort of ceremony if i try that one. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milahis it not possible to get switches that fit? what is it that they put in PRS's?
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Post by Runewalker on Oct 19, 2005 21:48:33 GMT -5
Nerves of Steel. No, big chicken. I only do these on cheapo bodies I pick up on Ebay.
My objective is mostly to build really superb players cheap so I don't care if something gets bunged up. This world of $3000 guits freaks me.
I have a Caliper that lets me carefully measure progress, Unlike my playing, I can be supple and subtle with a drill. Go figure.
I like the extension or reach nut idea, but be careful in case Unclemikey sees that term. He will take the bait.
Where do you get those. Do they increase the diameter of the guide hole?
RW
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Post by UnklMickey on Oct 20, 2005 9:34:44 GMT -5
yeah, since the turned down part of the "nut" goes into the hole, you sometimes have to drill it a bit larger diameter. sometimes there's already enough clearance. i haven't bought any in years, i think i still have a couple laying around (but where ). don't think you'd find them at a home center. maybe metra or some other car stereo installation kit mfgr. but might be really rare now that it's been a while since car radios had shafts.U.M.
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