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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 9:14:46 GMT -5
Hi, i just bought those : cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170706936996&ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160look at the height adjustment screws, i have never seen anything similar. My left-hand Carvin suffered since i bought it (and converted it to right-hand) from the sitar syndrome on many open notes. Tried the original Schaller L3, tried cheap after-market r2 nuts, tried genuine Schaller R3, all would suffer from sitar sound. Knowing already that (another) R3 would be too wide for this neck, and that R2 would be too low, and thus would require a shim, and since shim kits come around 9 USD or so, i decided to give the aforementioned item a shot. Will let you know of the result. I am eager to fill the current nut holes (top mount) and re-drill to fit the new nut.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 18, 2013 9:55:23 GMT -5
To preface, let me begin by saying I've never been much of a big Floyd Rose fan, or especially a locking nut fan...
That said, what does it do if you don't clamp down the "sitar" sounding strings and play? Also, do you have string trees on the "sitar" sounding strings?
And I never bought a FR shim kit in my life. A sheet of thin brass plate can be layered or worked to accommodate any original routing\nut issues to achieve the proper string height...and it'll do about 20-30 guitars for around $3.00US.
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2013 14:05:12 GMT -5
To preface, let me begin by saying I've never been much of a big Floyd Rose fan, or especially a locking nut fan... That said, what does it do if you don't clamp down the "sitar" sounding strings and play? Also, do you have string trees on the "sitar" sounding strings? And I never bought a FR shim kit in my life. A sheet of thin brass plate can be layered or worked to accommodate any original routing\nut issues to achieve the proper string height...and it'll do about 20-30 guitars for around $3.00US. HTC1 All notes sound good, except open high E and B. The original guitar must have had a L2/L3 "made in germany" nut. I am sure it is Schaller. I am saying L2/L3 cause the precise width was 42.5mm. Due to its writing "L3" i went and bought (from Greece/Athens, center) a Schaller R3 for 20 Euros. It was better than the L3, but it was too wide, and still B and E suffered the sitar effect. Also most pull offs on high E go out the fretboard. So i am sure i need 42mm nut. I know about how easy is to make a shim, but in my current situation where even writing this email steals time from elsewhere, more legit occupations, i have to keep buying.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 18, 2013 14:59:24 GMT -5
You still didn't mention whether you use string trees on this guitar. My first thought is the strings are not making sufficient contact with the back of the nut...but without seeing it I can't say for certain. And do the two unwound strings still go all "sitar" on you without being locked down? A common device found on a lot of guitars with locking nuts is this little thing: They're about $5.00 US and might be a quick fix. Try a quick experiment. Pull the locking screw and retainer from the nut and pluck an open string. Then put a finger on those strings behind the nut, with the retainer removed, applying enough pressure to pull it into the back of the nut, and see if it still does it. Don't sweat the intonation, you're just looking for the string to ring sans sitar. HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 3:23:07 GMT -5
Sorry for forgetting to mention this. The guitar originally had no string tension bar or string trees, cause the headstock is angled (les paul type). But i went on and installed a classic floyd rose string tension bar like the one you posted. No effect. I can manage to eliminate the sitar effect by doing this trick : www.frudua.com/floyd_rose_locking_nut.htmbut still not good for B and low E. My opinion is that this new Schaller "made in germany" i bought for 20 EUR is not machined well, which (along with various other "made in germany" quality issues on other products) pushes me to look to the chineze camp.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 19, 2013 11:00:37 GMT -5
I've used links from Frudua's site here before because he's a pretty sharp guy. He imparts little pearls of wisdom that a lot of luthiers keep close to the vest. The most telling piece is the link you posted is this: "If you notice a strange "sitar" effect on an open string, this most probably means that the string is just slightly touching one of the sides of the small "V" where it is inserted into the locking nut. In this case, unlock the string and re-lock it while keeping the string held to one side if the "V" walls with your fingers. If you still hear the "sitar" effect, try re-locking it holding the string onto the opposite side." - FruduaWithout getting more long winded than I usually do, let me say that every piece of engineering is a compromise. The Floyd Rose concept is no exception. While offering a "floating" trem, it introduces tuning instability. Trade off. So, one proposed solution is a locking nut. While this offers some benefits, it introduces the problem of "one size fits all" regarding string gauge slotting...which, as you have noted, ain't always the case. Ask yourself, if you were looking at a guitar with a standard nut that allowed your strings to freely move within the slots would you buy it? Again, it's a trade off that sometimes presents issues requiring a "fix" on top of a "fix". From my experience, an oil impregnated Tusq nut, or an FSR roller nut with string trees is a more agreeable fix to the initial problem of trem tuning instability than a locking nut. Opinions vary, and this is just mine. I've used Schaller components for 30 years and always found them to be some of the best out there. Material selection and machining is always consistent and first rate. I have to say, I had a WTF moment when I read you were going to look to the Chinese to find better quality. I understand your frustration, but I would have to caution throwing the Schaller out the window in search of a solution. You've had issues with locking nuts on this guitar, so searching for the ideal locking nut in this case is throwing good money after bad. To quote Einstein: "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." You can try file and shim the B and E side of your nut, but as you previously pointed out, time is more of an issue than money. In your case looking for a solution that doesn't require a locking nut on this guitar may be your best option. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2013 12:01:58 GMT -5
Cyn1,
The majority of string gauges that players of this era (80s when the FR was heavily used) played was either 9s or 10s. How many were playing 11s back then? Very few. And fewer with intentions for dive-bombing (and hence using FR). In my Carvin (the guitar in question) i have 10s. If the B, low E strings "swim" in their slots, that is (in my book) a engineering/machine/QA flaw.
I am saying this, because the other Floyd Rose equipped guitar i have (a Kramer 210, with the supposedly inferior Floyd Rose II) has never head any such problems. And its nut most probably was indonesian or korean (indonesia was the hype back in the 80s, equivalent to todays "China") rather than German. The whole guitar cost 300 euros in 1990. If we add 200 for the Floyd + 200 for the duncans it just dont make sense, so i am sure they were supposedly cheaper at their time (that is the guitar with the helicoil discussion we had, finally i let it be as is, by using the 2nd hole, even if intonation is slightly screwed, all good, i can live with it).
I had issues with locking nuts on this guitar (Carvin DC135) cause the factory nut was left-hand (as the whole guitar). So the stock nut was natural to give this sitar effect. But there is absolutely no excuse for the nu Schaller to sound like that. Funny thing is, this guitar has a Floyd Rose (supposedly original) (200 euros), a Schaller nut (20 euros) and had to overhaul it at least two times, in comparison to the kramer which had played fine for years, and has a sustain like nothing i have ever heard (in the likes of +15 seconds for fretted notes beyond the 12th fret - INSANE!). Just don't make sense.
Now regarding stability, if one knows how to string guitars ( i recently did) then he can make a plain vanilla strat to not go out of tune even with the wildest divebombs. But that does not mean, we have to downgrade an otherwise awesome sounding Carvin to specs below its factory status, right?
Last, regarding chinese quality, i think if i pay 80% of the money i would pay for german "technology" i also expect about 120% of the german "quality". There is nothing magic about USA/Germany/China/Turkey/USSR/Japan, etc.... all used to be either traditional or emerging industrial powers. I realized it in Turkey, when i saw that those guys have an enormous industrial capacity contrary to what the greek media claim. Japan used to be the "70"s china, now Japan is considered "premium" country of origin. About Germany, i don't know, they have a magnificent engineering history, hands down, but some of the products they put out today (see german cars) are not the exact epitome of reliability. I know of no person that has had a german car and did not face problems within two years of ownership.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2013 6:33:38 GMT -5
Got the thing today. Seems well built and designed. Problem is i have issues in the house, things breaking, waters leaking, kids not studying, and i gotta put an end to this anarchy. Afterwards i will install and post my review! I would be interesting since this is the first shim-able variable height screw-adjusted locking metal nut i have ever seen!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2013 8:03:29 GMT -5
NEED HELP!!
i installed the thing. It sounds very good. No more sitar in my guitar collection! But, the thing need the mounting screw holes a little bit further towards the machine heads, than the existing ones... to a place where ... there are no holes, cause there is no much wood.
What would advise ? Just throw the dice on yet another metal locking nut (R2 this time i assume) and some shims, or .... go to the sawdust + wood glue trick?
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 26, 2013 9:30:24 GMT -5
I think I understand your problem. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like the new nut has the threaded through holes to the outside...and your neck has a tighter hole center spacing...am I close?
One thing to remember is that those through holes on your neck weaken it at its most vulnerable point. I've lost count of all the broken necks I've seen over the years that let go at the location of those through holes.
Having said that, if you're going to re-drill anywhere it should be on the nut...provided those holes don't walk into the threaded holes for the string retainers. Long and short of it, DON'T RE-DRILL THE NECK.
A picture would be cool...because I may have completely misinterpreted your problem...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2013 15:46:18 GMT -5
cool advice man, thanx.... although my problem is not the spacing but rather the offset from the nut-fretboard joint towards the machine-heads direction. it seems i already tried a quick fix before i saw your post..... filled with toothpick + wood glue the old holes (just to make the whole thing more robust), mixed baking powder with wood glue to make for the not existing wood, and will wait till morning... in the mean time, at regular occasions i try to turn the truss rod to not let it get stuck with the glue..... silly, but i like to risk at times Got some things in the house repaired, and i got very courageous! maybe mixing soda powder with wood glue was stupid, but tried to make some wood-dust and was not successful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 0:30:35 GMT -5
mixing soda powder with this greek wood glue i bought failed. here is the result : the result was neither robust nor durable. I tried to fit the nut which led to : fortunately i was wise enough to cover the truss rod with aluminum foil not to make it get stuck with the glue. However this was not good and did not substitute wood. I had to make an angle to the mounting screws, which led to a broken screw head. That sucked. So i decided to mount the screws correctly/vertically, and therefore i had to make some wood substance to cover the empty areas around the truss rod, where the screws would go. For this i used sawdust i got from a big hardware store (for free) + a new Bison wood glue. The process : and the end result : however, even this last one, although pretty playable from most aspects, still has its limitations : When i do up tremolo bends (the opposite to dive bombs) i hear a little click. And when i full dive the tremolo i see there is a slight movement of the nut, so some things are still loose in there. I will leave the thing to settle down a few days (or day!) and then try to enhance it, by "natural" and not-intrusive methods, because another screw breakage would mean the guitar is dead and gone for ever. No room for mistakes any more.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 1, 2013 3:13:33 GMT -5
Well, at least you learned a few things along the way...
Trying to mix glue and other substances...even trying to use epoxy wood fillers is still no substitute for real wood. Granted, this requires tools and equipment that can be hard to justify for a single job, but that's why a good tech\luthier charges what they do...
Sure, making the shelf route for a locking nut takes about 5 minutes...but building the fixture and removing the latest fix will take hours...something you've mentioned you have in short supply.
You can wait for the last repair to fail, or you can just remove it and employ a permanent fix.
What kind of access do you have to tools\shop equipment?
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 5:20:21 GMT -5
cyn, my tools are various but nowhere close to yours. anyway, could not resist, and right after the last post, i went straight and did an enhancement to the fix : 1) i built a "wall"-"front" with baking soda + super glue, to support the nut from the machine heads side, against the pulling force of the strings pulling the nut from the machine heads, an effect that occurs during severe dive bombs, where the tension from the fretboard side becomes minimal, and the only force applied is from the tuners side. I did it by placing baking soda in the back side (machine heads side) and then dropping small drops of super glue. This creates a "cement" like substance. Very strong and very adhesive to the painted guitar wood. It supports the nut very good. 2) i added one-two drops of super glue in the mounting screw holes to make the threads in the wood more tight. The result : Now the tuning stability is very good, i can dive, pull, do whatever i want, and it just sounds great, no clicks, no movements, huge sustain in those natural harmonic squeels!! (pantera style).... no more sitar sound, + a guitar looking so GOTHIC!!! ;D
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 1, 2013 10:54:29 GMT -5
Well, it sure looks unique...
While this may work for some time, and for your sake I hope it does, it is not the way to effect a proper fix. In your case, where the screws are looking for purchase over the routing for the truss rod, filling the gap is an option, but there is another way.
A simple metal plate under the nut, drilled and tapped to accommodate the screws, would solve the problem without making secret potions...
Drilled and tapped steel is quick, simple and removeable. Wood is the second best medium for a screw to gain purchase. It has many properties that explain this, but long and short of it is that any cyanoacrylate resin based glue is going to become hard, and offer no torsional strength. Whether on its own, or mixed with baking soda, sawdust, metal shavings, ground rhino horns...etc...it was never designed to hold a threaded bolt or screw.
I wish you'd have posted these pictures in the beginning. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 11:37:08 GMT -5
Thanx, but can you pls clarify, what does "tapped" steel mean? How would this steel plate mount to the neck? At first thought, and since the said nut already seats on a metal shim (plate), it seems like moving the problem around. You surely have lots of experience with this, but after building this "soda" wall, i stopped having "clicks" and nut moving effects. The thing feels more robust. Time will tell, but pls elaborate on your solution. In case my method fails i would like to try yours.
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 1, 2013 12:44:05 GMT -5
OK, sorry about that. Sometimes when you do something for years you just assume the world knows what you're talking about. In the US we call it drilling and tapping. I have to plead ignorance to what it's called in your part of the world. This is what you use: First you drill the hole, then you run the tap through said hole to make threads for a bolt or machine screw to thread into. The idea of the plate is quite simple. First you cut a small plate the same size as the base of your nut. You use the same hole centers for the plate as are on your locking nut. Through holes or tapped (threaded) holes as needed. For example, if your neck is drilled to mount the nut to the neck you just make through holes and only tap for the lockdowns. With a thread file you can cut the screws\bolts to a custom length and just chase the threads to make them just like new. Make sense? These are all tools you can find just about anywhere and aren't that big of an investment. HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2013 14:56:29 GMT -5
thanx, yes i know of those, i have a drill Bosch, kind of good, i suppose. Also i am aware of tapping, we talked about those in our helicoil discussion about the other Floyd rose guitar i have. Also i understand about drill through for bottom mount nut, vs tapped for top mount nut. Mine is obviously the top mount case.
But i still don't understand. Ok i make threads to the steel plate and screw the nut on top of it. How will i attach the plate to the wood? By drilling yet another two holes? Four holes on the 4 corners? Or by glueing this down?
In the meantime i went through a marathon of tremolo abuse and the thing still persists, with almost zero tuning pitch loss. It would be interesting to see what will happen. Soda and super glue are infamous for providing bone nut solutions. Lets see. But your solution just give me this extra life in this dangerous game! (After you are kind enough to address this last question)
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 1, 2013 16:45:12 GMT -5
Normally, a locking nut is attached to the neck by two screws through the neck. Yours doesn't appear to mount this way.
If it were me, I'd use 2-4 #4 wood screws to mount the plate onto the shelf routed on the neck. This may\may not involve drilling into the shelf, but #4 wood screws only needs a 5\64" hole. I'd cut the screws to allow for the shallowest hole I could drill to hold them. You only need twice the diameter of a screw or bolt to be sure it will hold, so with a #4 wood screw the holes only need to be 5/64" in diameter and a minimum of 7/32" deep.
Next I'd lose the wood screws to mount the nut and replace them with a fine thread flat head machine screw. Match the size of the countersunk holes in the nut to determine you screw size. Drill and tap the place, then cut and thread file the screws accordingly if necessary.
I'd also throw some blue Loctite on the threads of the machine screws to keep them from walking out.
Make sense?
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 0:04:45 GMT -5
Normally, a locking nut is attached to the neck by two screws through the neck. Yours doesn't appear to mount this way. If it were me, I'd use 2-4 #4 wood screws to mount the plate onto the shelf routed on the neck. This may\may not involve drilling into the shelf, but #4 wood screws only needs a 5\64" hole. I'd cut the screws to allow for the shallowest hole I could drill to hold them. You only need twice the diameter of a screw or bolt to be sure it will hold, so with a #4 wood screw the holes only need to be 5/64" in diameter and a minimum of 7/32" deep. Next I'd lose the wood screws to mount the nut and replace them with a fine thread flat head machine screw. Match the size of the countersunk holes in the nut to determine you screw size. Drill and tap the place, then cut and thread file the screws accordingly if necessary. I'd also throw some blue Loctite on the threads of the machine screws to keep them from walking out. Make sense? HTC1 Cyn1, there are two types of mounting of locking nuts. Bottom mount, which is what you describe and top mount. Bottom mount used to be the case in the 80s but it proved to weaken the neck, so top mount today seems more appropriate. It is less stable than the bottom mount through the whole neck , but leaves more wood in the neck. About the rest of your post it makes perfect sense ( i read it 2-3 times to finally get it) and i will keep it for reference!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 5:43:38 GMT -5
Well, there have been some more proceedings with this, some bad ones and some good ones: The good ones : i finally fit this correctly regarding the distance from the fretboard wall, and the fretboard edges. No more this huge gap between the nut and the fretboard. Now it is perfect. Superb sound, sustain. Just fine. The bad ones : i stripped the threads of the string claws (AKA blocks or pads, the ones who hold the strings locked - hence the purpose of the locking nut), that is why there is no claws in the photos, i play the guitar without them, for the moment. and the ugly : The "concrete" wall fell apart at the first unmount of the nut, so much for my magic substance. Next, move, i wrote to the supplier, to get me a new one (free) since i do not regard my responsibility that the threads stripped. Another option would be to order 2 new ones (7 euros) from china, or order some M4 0.7 1D V-coil repair kit and be able to correct those pads and every similar situation in the future. Anyway, the cost of the kit (23 euros) cannot justify the investment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2013 10:26:43 GMT -5
Hey, got the parts from China! New locking nut adventures soon
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2013 23:00:56 GMT -5
I heard Cyn1 yesterday.... After i got the two lock nuts, and saw there was no way i could fit them, without replaying the already played drama here. I stopped right there before some screw was broken in the wood. Toothpicked the screw holes with strong wood glue... and i felt i should order some nut worth the price and value of the guitar. Now i will do a proper job with proper parts. I realized those chinese nuts (3 euro each) ( i tried 3 of them, only one sounded good) were hit and miss and also didn't allowed for maximal contact between the nut and the wood. The nut was like kind in the air....
Since i had a rather bad experience with schaller, i am going for a gotoh this time. But i would certainly try a schaller again instead of the cheap chinese.
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