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Post by strat80hm on May 14, 2013 1:08:57 GMT -5
Hey there guitar nuts, I have a question in my head these days, i thought maybe you could help me decide: in my situation (see below), should i get a vintage or a standard vibrato block? Situation - i m rebuilding a "perfect" guitar (for me) starting from a basswood Fender body with a straight 24 fret Fender neck. - this Strat is mounted with a double locking system (a Kahler Spyder) with routed cavity for pulling. - this vibrato is mounted on 2 poles which are about 2' 7/8" apart. Plan - to install a classic vibrato block (no locking) with piezo captor (LR Baggs X-Bridge because it sounds nice and cost less than other brands). www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/electric-guitar-acoustic-pickup- the Vintage version has 6 screws (2 1/8 wide) while the Standard had 2 poles (2 1/16 apart). - because of the difference of size with the Kahler, i m going to have to fill up the existing holes for the poles and drill new holes. - because of the routing, i might also have to fill-up at least the front part of the recess (where the poles are). - i like my vibrato block floating -which i do by setting it "slanted" (a la Jeff Beck)- so it doesnt not necessarily need a recessed body, although i m not against the idea of setting it "flat" and take advantage of the already existing route for pull-ups. - I like the Vintage system better, especially the thin threaded vibrato bar. Questions - given the strong string/spring tension involved, and the potential "fragility" of having to glue a new piece of wood to accommodate new poles/screws, is the 6 screws-Vintage system the right choice in my situation?- what s sturdier: 6 screws or 2 poles? - any specific piece of wood i should use for (partially) filling up the routed part? Thanks for sharing thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 2:12:25 GMT -5
Hello strat and welcome to the nuts! Is changing your bridge a requirement for you? Do you like the guitar ergonomically/acoustically/operationally/functionally as it is? Is the need for the piezo pups just an isolated requirement? Also, i have some question about lrbags. From www.lrbaggs.com/pickups/electric-guitar-acoustic-pickupAs far as i know, 2 1/16 is far from US std. It seems that there might be a solution for you : www.graphtech.com/products/brands/ghost/ghost-pickups---guitar which does not require radical changes to your instrument. See if the floyd rose saddles they sell are compatible with your kahler spyder. Out of curiosity, what is the pricing on the lrbags bridges? What is the state of the market for "ghost"-type piezo pups, aimed as inputs to midi processors? Back to your original question, given the situation, go with the 2-pivot tremolo by all means.
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Post by newey on May 14, 2013 6:00:54 GMT -5
Strat8Ohm- Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!I'm not the one to ask about vibratos. On guitars which demand one, I use the six-screw vintage style, screw them down tight, and never use them. But I'm with Greekdude on the idea of all that body reworking. Can you do it so that the new bridge will hold and operate properly? Maybe, depending on your woodworking skills and available tools. Will it also look good when you're done? Maybe, depending on your level of patience and skill in refinishing. While Greek prefers the 2-post floating style, the 6-screw is certainly stronger from a mounting standpoint. The 2-post ones depend upon threaded inserts, glued (or press fitted) into the body, into which the posts are threaded. These inserts take a lot of stress, and can pull out of the body. This is by no means a quick fix. Whatever the number of hours you anticipated spending to do this, triple it. There is also the question of scale length. Will the new bridge be forward or backward from where the current bridge sits? You will have some range for adjustment of the saddles of course, but will that be enough to compensate for any change in the bridge placement? There are many ways to add a piezo, if that's the goal. As Greek noted, check out the Ghost Tech saddle replacement piezos, they may fit. Or, you can DIY the piezo setup. JohnH got pretty good results just using a piezo buzzer element glued to the trem block (although he blocked the trem to do it, other placement options are possible): Adding a piezoJohn's scheme involves building a custom preamp but commercial piezo preamps are available that could be used. Another option: Once you add up all the hours you'd spend to do this, multiply that number by what you think your time is worth. How much is 1 hour of your time worth at your job? Are you up to about $180 USD yet? Probably more than that, I'm guessing. That's about what a decent new basswood Strat body would cost, routed for the correct bridge of your choice. You might be able to find a "gently used" body for even less, perhaps with all the hardware still attached. Swap your neck and hardware, add the new bridge and piezo, and you're done- and you still have the original Kahler-equipped body if you ever want to change back. Just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 8:01:54 GMT -5
+ for Newey's financial/technical analysis.
Just a note, Newey, i supported (in the lack of a less "intrusive" method, that is, if strat decides she wants to modify the guitar body no matter what) the 2-point tremolo way, because IMO the 6-screws method would require mounting on a piece of wood glued on top of the place where the old Kahler used to seat, as strat implied, and that sounds a little bit more scary than the 2-pivot way, provided that the studs go to the original wood. Besides that, you are absolutely correct in that 6-screws are much stronger than 2-point pivot studs+bushings.
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Post by cynical1 on May 14, 2013 8:37:45 GMT -5
Greetings and Welcome to the Nutz House ;D While I'm with Greek, the GraphTech Ghost saddles are a great way to go, with the Kahler Spyder you're SOL since the Kahler uses roller saddles. To my knowledge no one makes a piezo aftermarket saddle for roller bridges. First off, when it comes the trem-leo units, everyone as a preference. I try not to proselytize. While not a big fan, back in the day I put one of the original Kahler units on a bass. While it was a PITA to setup and intonate due to their design, it was stable and solid once it was dialed in. That, however was a completely different design than any of the three in question here... I would be curious to know how you feel about the Kahler. Do you like the way it functions? Is the only reason for a change to have the piezo capability? To go the other way, have you played the other styles you mentioned in your original post enough to have a preference yourself? Remember, buying something like this without trying it is a lot like buying shoes over the internet...you never know they don't fit until you're out of the store... The next, and probably most important question, is what's the budget? Obviously, you've got the initial expense in whatever trem unit you purchase. There's also the rework costs involved in that what you want to do is going to require physical modifications to the guitar, which will rack up the tool budget unless you have a well equipped shop already. I'm not personally familiar with the LR Baggs unit you mention. I will circle around to what Greek tossed out with the Ghost system. The Ghost saddles are available for nearly every Fender type trem out there, and they also offer several expansion boards that essentially plug and play to give you the piezo output, as well as MIDI and Acoustic Simulation. Newey also tossed the JohnH post out there on his adventures with piezo. While it may not be the way you want to go, it is a good read and will give you more insight into what you're planning on getting in to. To finally get around to your question on which is better, the 2-point or 6 screw trem unit...it depends... They are both friction units with advantages and disadvantages. After working on both type for years, I wouldn't put either one on my guitar. I wouldn't put a FR on either. About the only system that impresses me is the one from Super-Vee as it uses spring steel to connect the mounting plate to the trem unit. I like this because it eliminates the inherent issues with wear and goes in the right direction to maintain tuning stability. The Bladerunner style can also be refitted with Ghost piezo saddles with little to no agony. They offer two flavors, as well as a locking nut, but they are far from cheap after you add in the Ghost saddles. You would probably double your cash outlay for the complete setup versus the LR Baggs without breaking a sweat. So, before we take your perfect guitar and turn it into a perfect nightmare, any thoughts or questions on what's been tossed out there so far? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on May 14, 2013 12:10:30 GMT -5
strat80hm, Hi, and to the NutzHouse! To my knowledge no one makes a piezo aftermarket saddle for roller bridges. OTOH.... Javier at Graphtech has made at least one set of roller-bridge piezo saddles that I've seen, and I think he's done another set that I heard about. I don't know if he's still there at Graphtech, you'll have to go through the main website Contact Us form and see what kind of response you get. Good luck! ;D sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on May 14, 2013 19:19:01 GMT -5
I bet those cost a left leg and two car payments...
HTC1
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Post by sumgai on May 15, 2013 9:13:53 GMT -5
^^^^ Ever heard of "first born son"? Naw, they were experimental, I never did hear what the final price might've been. I don't know if they truly worked out over the long run, I've lost contact with most of that crowd of players. (gumbo being the main exception.) But from my experience with the Ghost system on my previous Strat (now more than a decade ago), my guess would be that they're probably still working just fine. What's the cost of a call or an email, just to ask? sumgai
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Post by cynical1 on May 15, 2013 9:32:29 GMT -5
I do recall that GraphTech was more willing to do engineering samples than most companies. This probably accounts for the extensive collection of bridge saddles.
Another thing that always impressed me about GraphTech was everything they did was researched well, worked like it said on the box and held up to whatever the working musician could throw at it.
I would have reservations paying the upcharge for piezo saddles on a Kahler trem. Those things are are annoying enough to setup now...having six wires hanging off of it just seems like more trouble than it's worth. But, opinions vary.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on May 15, 2013 17:27:52 GMT -5
There is another option we seldom speak of, and that is to eliminate those fulcrum screws altogether! Visit here to learn more about that concept, then cast around on that site for info on ordering. What's important to this discussion is that they offer a version with pre-drilled holes for each wire coming from a saddle with a piezo element. Very clean looking, I assure you. I'd say that's about as close to stealth as you can get. HTH sumgai
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 23:44:33 GMT -5
There is another option we seldom speak of, and that is to eliminate those fulcrum screws altogether! Visit here to learn more about that concept, then cast around on that site for info on ordering. What's important to this discussion is that they offer a version with pre-drilled holes for each wire coming from a saddle with a piezo element. Very clean looking, I assure you. I'd say that's about as close to stealth as you can get. HTH sumgai Very nice concept. However something is wrong with their site. Their product line page compared to this : pointtremolo.com/order.htm is totally irrelevant.
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Post by cynical1 on May 16, 2013 1:05:44 GMT -5
There is another option we seldom speak of, and that is to eliminate those fulcrum screws altogether! Visit here to learn more about that concept, then cast around on that site for info on ordering. Funny, Leo comes up with it and everyone spends the next 5 decades fixing it. I read up on this idea. It does address the primary drawback of the Trem-Leo, but it looks like you still need to do some retro fitting and modifications to you're guitar to make it fit in a standard Strat. Nothing extensive, but probably just enough to scare the aftermarket crowd away. The problem of improving an OEM design within someone else's cost driven parameters... HTC1
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Post by lunaalta on May 16, 2013 9:02:36 GMT -5
I have the older style, 6 screw, Trem-Leo on my 73 Strat, never had any troubles or problems staying in tune, even when I waggle it deep and strong.... Probably just lucky, who knows. I've had to fit later bridge pieces because the old ones were so bunged up with gunk and corrosion had set in...... Too many sweaty gigs...........
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Post by strat80hm on May 20, 2013 1:37:11 GMT -5
Thanks for educated information everyone, much appreciated. Sorry for late answer, was gigging out of town. Lots of relevant points here, so i m gonna try to address them all in one. I m adding pictures too. So again, i m trying to build the perfect guitar for me. Define perfect? - light weight (basswood helps) easy on the shoulder - wide and flat fantastic 24 fret neck easy on the fingers - versatility with sounds and playing technique (single coils, humbuckers, piezo, sustainiac, killswitch, whammy bar, behind the nut bending, etc..) - non locking vibrato system (i wont need a tool box to change a string or detune) - non locking nuts (i like to bend behind the nut, though i might just remove the top parts) - it has to look "classic", this means as close as possible to a "regular Strat", or any old car - i noticed that when in "professional" situation (commercial recording session, major shows, etc), every time i show up with a guitar more or less customized, or with no famous brand sticker on it, the producers/directors usually think i didnt "take them seriously", even when the thing sounds good. But when i bring my "vintage looking" 60s reissue, it s all praises and all, regardless of how i perform that day. Bottom line: my guitar makes me eat, therefore it has to dress the part. This said, i find the "vintage old chevy look" very nice too anyway, so it s fine. - that big bulky piece of dark metal called Kahler Spyder is very good, wide action and tight tuning (when clamped), but it s a pain to use it on a daily basis. By the way it works with regular springs. You guys mentioned "roller saddle", not so sure what you mean by that. - On the other hand i love the vintage block on my 60s reissue (Chris Rea model), light yet precise, set floating, on which i can do all the tricks with great tuning stability (thank to graphite from HB pencil at nuts and bridge). If it s too much work/dough to replace this Kahler, worst case scenario, i ll adapt some piezo saddles - so long for the real vintage look. - getting another body already routed for classic vibrato block is an idea too, provided it s doable to adapt my 24 fret neck to it. - the existing holes/poles distance do not match any other system (BladeRunner, Wilkinson..), to the exception of the Floyd! Therefore, this is gonna require woodwork. I have access to the tools (mainly a router) if so, and I plan to hide the recessed body with a cache made of pickguard material, and shaped like some old car part, or even adapt a telecaster-type bridge cache, thus keeping a respectable oldie look. - it s seems that 6 screws would be more sturdy than 2 poles, since the distance between the vibrato bridge and pickup is small, and the wood (basswood i think, unless it s alder?) is quite tender. But i m still debating on this one, thus this thread. There already is a crack in between the neck pickup cavity and the neck (see below), hopefully i can fix that easy.. - the Lr Baggs X-bridge is 120 US dollars, while piezo saddles (graphtech) would be about 220 USD, provided they fit the Kahler Spyder. Super Vee is nice but not cheap.. - I checked with interest JohnH solution -I build a couple of "stompbox" with piezo elements from buzzers, and they sound ok, sometimes great with a good EQ- quite interesting direction indeed. From the samples provided, i cant really say that i love the sound though. Similarly, there s quite a sound difference between the Lr Baggs and the Fishman (see . - there s also gonna be the question of the color: the basswood doesnt really look super nice, so i was planning on keeping that deep Purple and make it look more happy with some brighter pickguard (faded white? tortoise? pink? kaki?) - the budget is a good question too: i buy everything second-hand, and i m much a DIY person, fixing everything myself from guitar to bike to clothes to computers to food to pedalboards to furnitures to house and plants. On the other hand, i never had to take a job outside of playing guitar, recording, touring, even did Broadway shows (for the experience, 1 year, loved it). Thus i m thinking "Hey, if you re gonna finally go for your perfect guitar, dont be cheap, it s your daily tool". I m debating between "getting it for as cheap as possible" or "paying what it takes" (for the main crucial parts that is). However, i never paid more than 900 USD for any of my 20 guitars & basses - and i have good ones from Fender, Gibson, MusicMan, Yamaha, Epiphone, Ibanez, LaPatrie... So i could state that this perfect guitar could cost up to $900USD max. Since i already paid 200 for the guitar, so i d have 700 more for instance. Hopefully if i can get away for less..) From all your comments and suggestions, i have new ideas/possibilities: - new body VS. old body+woodwork? - basic vibrato block a la Fender with home made piezo system VS. X-bridge? - home made sustainer system VS. sustainiac? I am definitely open to your relevant questions, brilliant ideas and imaginative suggestions, always. Thank you very much, incredible forum really!
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Post by newey on May 20, 2013 5:34:15 GMT -5
Is that also a crack between the trem rout and the bridge pickup rout?
Given the woodworking needed, plus the repair to (at least) one crack, my thought for a new body keeps coming back to me. But I was thinking it was more or less a Strat-style neck. You may have trouble finding a good fit for your neck with a new body if it's not a std. Strat sized heel.
Also, you want a sustainer, too? Others will chime in on this, I'm sure, but building one DIY fashion is a big project in itself.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 7:50:43 GMT -5
This guitar will keep its value, being a very much popular Fender model, now discontinued. I'd agree with Newey, first fix the two cracks (neck pocket, bridge pup cavity), and leave that guitar stock. If you have 20 axes already in your collection, then adding your ultra-customized, home-brewed 21th axe, does not sound irrational. Well, having almost your age, yet not even 1/1000 of your professional experience, that's my take : buy a standard USA spaced body, and a standard USA spaced neck. Most of the higher aftermarket products target those specs. Then add more stuff (piezos, sustainers, etc...) as you go... Just gave that 24th fret requirement a second thought. Not so many fender necks that i am aware of have 24 frets out of the box. Do you really play those 2 additional frets? I have 21 fret axes, 22 fret axes, 24 fret axes, rarely do i need to go beyond the 22th fret, most of the time ppl fret the 24th fret to produce a screaming high E, this you can do by bending on full tone on the 22th fret. Usually, market-wise 24 frets/Locking trem go hand in hand, whereas 21/22 frets/non-locking trem also go together.... Maybe if you tried something from Charvel www.charvel.com/guitars/index.php?partno=2967000576 ? have you considered www.warmoth.com/Guitar/necks/FretboardExtensions.aspxor a combination of the above? IMHO with warmoth you could build the guitar to your specs in order to fit anything you like.
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Post by cynical1 on May 20, 2013 12:11:08 GMT -5
To paraphrase Davis Guggenheim, This Might Get Long. Don't worry about the lag in getting back here. It's always nice to see someone still making a living playing these things. Well, there's a lot to cover, but I think the 800 pound gorilla in the room needs to be addressed first. As you said, this is how you make your living. Two thoughts spring to mind almost immediately. First, unless you have another guitar that can sub the one going in for surgery, than working under the assumption that you can fix and make right everything you need to in time to make the next gig is just setting yourself up for disaster. Even if the guitar in question isn't everything you want, it does keep food on the table and the home fires burning. If this is a primary guitar in the arsenal then I would counsel you to scrap the idea of modifying this one and start from scratch. If not, carve away. Either way, plan on whatever way you go the said "dream guitar" will be on the bench for a while. Staging it with no time constraints on completion allows you to span the costs out over a period of time that prevents you from sleeping in your car eating beans out of a can. Secondly, and something you're going to have to answer, is how much you're willing to spend. Years ago I did regular work for the infamous Mr A. Rush. He had an old school shop (as in, no longer able to survive against the big box titans) with working musicians coming through all day. When said working musician came in looking for a guitar he had a stock line. "You gonna make a living off this guitar\bass? OK, take whatever you want to spend and double it." I always used to smile at that, until the logic dawned on me one day. If this is how you represent yourself professionally, and you don't take it seriously, no one else will. You don't need the $30,000.00 Jesselli, but a sturdy tool with dependable action, function and performance is, I assume, what you're after. To get that will generally always cost more than your brain and wallet intended to spend. Before you take another step down the "perfect guitar" path I would strongly suggest reconciling this point in your mind first. OK, on to the rest of the list... - light weight (basswood helps) easy on the shoulder Basswood is about as light a functional wood as you're likely to find. For some reason everyone loves to bash this wood. Ibanez has made it into a standard in the industry...what do they know... For comparison, if your primary concern with the body is weight, you have a few options: BASSWOOD: Average Dried Weight: 27 lbs/ft3 POPLAR: Average Dried Weight: 29 lbs/ft3 RED ALDER: Average Dried Weight: 30 lbs/ft3 I personally like poplar in basses. Makes them just sound "pretty"...whatever that means... Long and short of it is that either of these three choices will work in keeping the weight down and off of your shoulders. There's two ways you go here. Have a custom neck made, or haunt the music stores and play every guitar in the shop to find who makes the contour and radius you like and try and score one used. Option 1 can get pricey, but avoiding the snakewood fingerboards and exotic woods will keep the cost within acceptable limits. This option will require some work at setup, but all in all everything will be made to your hands and specification. Option 2 normally means buying used, and this can be a crap shoot. Over the years I've had more success than failure on this road, but it may require some work on your part. You may want different frets, there may be finish issues, you may need to modify the neck pocket on your guitar body to make it work...and there's always the issue of mismatched headstock logo to body. You alluded to issues with producers sneering at custom guitars, so this option may be an issue for you. Well, I hope you're comfortable with a router. Everything you want is well within the range of realistic possibilities...all you need to do is make it all fit. If the guitar body you start with doesn't have this kind of real estate in the control cavity you'll need to route new ones. There are plenty of control cavity routing templates to allow you to do a clean professional job, so no real worries there. The rest of the nuts here will help you put everything in there you'd ever want. This is one of the more critical components in the type of guitar you're after. There are many flavors, some good, some not so good. As you said, it needs to be functional, sturdy and easy to live with. While the Bladerunner does come with some sticker shock, it is a professional grade piece of equipment that will be consistent and last the life of the instrument. It also drops into a standard Strat trem route, so if your body already has this type of routing all you need to do is put in 4 screws to install it...no power tools required. It also accepts the Ghost piezo saddles. Nothing custom or "one off" involved to get the piezo output you're after, plus you can also integrate MIDI into these saddles with a simple plug-in board. I hate to sound like a broken record on this option, but having supported working musicians over the years I've come to appreciate solutions that work and keep working. No one likes those panicked calls to the tech 4 hours before a gig... I've always liked the roller nuts. The LSR is pretty much the standard, but the one from Wilkerson (not the full roller one) isn't too bad. On either one you're limited to string gauge...no Stevie Ray gauges here...but anything up to 11s will work fine. One caveat, they do require a permanent modification to the neck. The nut shelf requires additional routing to fit it correctly to maintain intonation accuracy. It's not a big deal, but a few hours building a jig is time well spent. Another option is the oil impregnated TUSQ nuts. These are a direct retrofit to standard nut slots\shelves. Granted, these will need replacing periodically depending on how much you whammy and bend behind the nut, but they'll last a lot longer and maintain tuning integrity much better than a standard nut. Based on what you've said so far, I'd guess the Fat Strat body in either alder is pretty close to what you're looking for. Most of the other HSS guitars out there will all be routed for a Floyd Rose...which runs counter to your "not needing a tool kit" criteria to use and it really needs the locking nut...which we've already covered and eliminated from the design. eBay will be your friend here. The only issue with the Fat Strat will be getting your 24 frets. Depending on how involved you want to be on the rework, any HSS body can be filled and re-routed to accommodate the LR Baggs, Bladerunner or other Strat type Trem-Leos. Many of these guitars were already scaled for 24 frets, normally in a 24.75" scale, but it will probably allow you to leave the pickup routings intact and only require a reroute for the trem unit. I've done more than a few of these and while it takes time, routing templates and building a few jigs the finished results are seamless once the paint goes on. Kahler made some very good units...but they were like Volvos in that they required a lot of work and patience to get the most out of them... They seem to elicit an immediate "love 'em or hate 'em" response from guitar players... The roller saddles were a standard in the Kahlers. They're just the little rollers the strings exit the unit on. Chris Rea also taps a wood block behind the trem block to restrict it... Honestly, if you looking for a functional and reliable way to add piezo output to the guitar the Kahler is going to have to go. This is going to involve a good amount of rework, but if the piezo is what you're after it's something you're just going to have to bite the bullet and do. See above...I got ahead of myself. The only question you have to ask is can you live with the shorter scale most of the existing HSS 24 fret guitars were designed for? You can still have a 25.5" scale 24 fret guitar, but it's going to take some clever reworking and customization. As long as you're comfortable with a router, understand, or want to learn the concepts of routing jigs, there isn't anything you can't do. I think we've all come to the conclusion that whether you rework this guitar, or another body, some amount of intricate surgery will be involved. I would be less concerned about "making something else fit" into the existing routings as I would in determining what components I was going to select for the build and working out how and where to rework to make it happen. Well, you bring up a good point. Should you rework a cracked body for a "dream guitar", or start from scratch? Like newey pointed out, it looks like you've got a few cracks in this body. While they are repairable (we can do another thread on that) they do indicate issues not commonly addressed on dream guitars. I revert back to my original suggestion of starting fresh with a different body. With the amount of rework you're looking at a refinish is an almost inevitability. Again, this is something best covered in another thread as well. Having it professionally finished after all the rework is done is the easiest, and newey can direct you to a good shop for that, but it ain't cheap. Doing it yourself ain't a lot cheaper if you have no equipment...and it's a helluva lot more work. A budget for this guitar is something you should work out before you pickup tool one. First, work out everything you want on it as if there were no limits. Next, pick yourself up off the floor and break it down to what's critical and what's a luxury. IMHO, the neck is the most critical piece in the puzzle. This should be one of the biggest expenses, but it also determines playability, so this is the last place you want to go cheap. This also covers tuners and whatever nut configuration you finally decide on. The neck you choose may also impact the body, so work this out first and find a body afterwards. Next on the list is your bridge\whammy device. You mentioned the piezo element being integral, so do your homework. If you can get your hands on these units to see if they play like it says on the box it will be time well spent. Moving on, it's electronics. What type of pickups were you looking at? Passive or active? High or low output? You'll potentially need an onboard preamp for the piezos and whatever switching and controls...etc... This will take some real estate and thought into ergonomic positioning and functionality. After those three are down it's time to locate a body. Alder, basswood or poplar in a traditional shape to keep the producers happy. See A. Rush quote detailed above... A final option is to have a custom builder make you a partial build. They do the neck, route the body for your trem, pickups and electronics and possibly put a finish on it. You then go in and assemble the rest and do your final setup. This can give you exactly what you want for a lot less then a full build. A common misconception a lot of people have it that they can do it cheaper by building it themselves. After everything, including tools, is totaled up at the end it's not uncommon to find you've spent the the same, or more for the build that if you've had it made custom. You have a lot of options open to you. There are ways to keep the overall costs down without doing across the board austerity. If you came to me and asked me to build it I could toss out even more options and ideas. I think what you should probably do is start narrowing down exactly what you want and then determining how to make it work. If you need to take an extra 6 months to justify an expense, view it in the light that this is a guitar you will be playing for decades...so is the additional 6 months that big a deal versus settling for something less than you wanted. Put it all on paper and work it out piece by piece. The closer it comes to a reality the better the odds are that it will get built. Well, it did get long. Sorry if your eyes glazed over. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 2:07:40 GMT -5
See above...I got ahead of myself. The only question you have to ask is can you live with the shorter scale most of the existing HSS 24 fret guitars were designed for? You can still have a 25.5" scale 24 fret guitar, but it's going to take some clever reworking and customization. I think this : www.ibanez.co.jp/products/eg_page13.php?area_id=3&data_id=63&color=CL01&year=2013&cat_id=1&series_id=147 is : - strat style - has a good name (to impress producers, etc...) - 24 frets - long scale 648mm/25.5" - HSH strat-type high tonal versatility - could be modified to fit a roller nut and a bladerunner bridge , but frankly i dont see any reason to modify this specific ibby, since bending behind the nut could be accomplished by pulling the trem arm up. Also, another idea, a guitar that already comes with piezos is the contemporary Carvin DC135 , 25" scale, 24 frets, HSS, + the option for NON-locking tremolo/non-locking nut. But all those things cost more than 1000 USD, i am afraid.
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Post by cynical1 on May 21, 2013 11:47:45 GMT -5
As long as Carvin came up, they do offer kits. www.carvinguitars.com/kits/You can order on-line and do a fair amount of customization in the stock order form. I don't know if they could be tweaked more to your liking ordering over the phone, but this option would save you quite a bit of personal agony in the rework and get you out the door for about half of the cost of a finished Carvin. HTC1
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Post by strat80hm on May 22, 2013 15:45:12 GMT -5
Thanks again for your suggestions and links, i love broadening my knowledge about what s out there. Busy session day (using my other guitars, no worry), sorry no time to thoroughly go over all the comments now, though let me quickly ad this: About the kits, extensions and other (pricey) suggestions:- beside being a DIY person and never ever having bought any brand new guitar (i would be terrified to scratch it while changing a string or what), I love the philosophy of "doing with what s already there". I m a bit like one of these Guitar Rescuers, except that my goal here is not to resuscitate/recreate the original. In this very situation, i chose this guitar because it was cheap and broken: i saw it as a perfect launchpad for my dream guitar (as said: light body, 2 octave neck). I bought it quite beaten-up - though sort of playable- off Craigslist, literally in the street in the middle of the night in a small town in Oregon while on a West Coast tour - i used a rental car to drive about 1hrs away from Portland to get it after the show. I then discovered what i bought when back at the hotel that night, and i liked it. So i absolutely intend to use this perfect neck here i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/strat80hm/neckblue.jpg [/img] And most likely this light body here, perfectly retro-fitted for this 24 frets neck. By the way, the mark between the bridge and pickup cavities is NOT a crack -i thought too in the hotel room, but when dismantled back home, it turned out to be just a chip, probably made with a flat screw driver. About 24 frets: - i play a lot with 2 hands/8 fingers on the neck, so i need two full octaves on a WIDE neck, which is the case. - and this is not only about the number of frets: while it is absolutely right that you can play that high E by bending, none of my 21 or 22 fret guitars offers such a full and easy access to second octave to the point that you could actually play bare-chords up-there (i dont have any flying V About free nut:It allows the Pedal-steel effect - to bend one or 2 strings only - while holding the floating vibrato-block for the other strings to stay in tune. Uneasy to do with a locking nut. Of course i tried the same effect by pressing-down the fine tuners (in a D-Tuna fashion), but it aint enough range. About the vibrato block: so far i could not put my hands on an X-Bridge, though i tried the MusicMan John Petrucci yesterday in NYC. Plenty of nice idea on this axe (it s not for me though, neck way too narrow), and i really like the way the vibrato system mix both the advantages of the classic Fender (regular nuts, no locking) with the wide action of the "2 poles" AND the discrete recess for pulling up. Not to mention the integrated piezo. My plan is in several steps: 1 - first step, fix that real crack by the neck-cavity: do i have to break the full chunk free and reinstall it with Titebond glue? I dont see how i could insert glue otherwise (syringe??) 2- if the guitar resonates enough, then i ll have to make up my mind about how to get the piezo in: - JohnH method+regular Fender vibrato bridge? - 2 poles X-bridge (Standard) slightly recessed in the body (a la MusicMan Petrucci)? - 6 screws X-bridge (Vintage), which would imply some woodwork to level at least the front-part of the routing. When this works, then only would i proceed with the rest. Welcoming thoughts/ideas. Besides, when i see the dedication and knowledge you guys here have regarding sharing/helping/advising, i m wondering if i should start a dedicated thread on this project..
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Post by cynical1 on May 22, 2013 18:01:37 GMT -5
Thanks again for your suggestions and links, i love broadening my knowledge about what s out there. Come here often enough and you'll find your mental faculties moving in the other direction... Well, I can relate to that. Lately all I've been doing is recusing guitars. You can see the latest patient, Blue Murder, here. The routing and filling I did there will more than likely apply to any routing you will need to do to lose the current trem and go with a vintage Strat style. [/img] And most likely this light body here, perfectly retro-fitted for this 24 frets neck.[/quote] Then so be it. It appears this neck was routed for a locking nut. Was the plan to go with a roller nut or an oil impregnated TUSQ nut? Makes a difference in what you do with the nut shelf. If you're going to lose the routings for the FR style trem you can address the gouge then. The crack in the neck pocket will need to be addressed. Most times you see this it's because of a fall or drop. Either that or someone attempted to install a different neck on said guitar without matching the heel profiles. When they locked it down the wood split. The other common occasion is when someone tried the old urban legend of loosening the neck screw at full string tension and then re-tightnening them. The theory behind this is that it'll pull the neck tighter into the cavity to increase sustain, improve tone, feed the homeless and bring gas prices back to 1960's levels. Generally, none of the aforementioned occurs, but the wood at the base of the neck pockets usually splits... If it's a non-structural crack it's easy to fix. Worse case scenario is if it cracks into the body, but that's rare. Based on the pictures, it looks like the crack is contained withing the depth of the neck pocket. Without seeing it I'm gonna have to toss a few questions at you: Does it go deeper than the neck pocket and into the pickup routings? Does it have any slop in it? By that I mean can you lift it enough to get a syringe into the crack? How far across the neck pocket does the crack traverse? And yes, a syringe will work fine to shoot the glue into the crack. I have horses, so I have no small shortage of hypodermic syringes around the place. You can buy them at any equine supply house on the Internet, or if you live in the sticks, pretty much any feed or farm supply store will have them. The trick is to find the smallest needles around. I prefer the 20 ga or 22 ga. 1" or 3/4" ones. Thinning TiteBond, or any wood glue more than 5% will reduce its holding strength, but it you put the glue loaded syringe in a zip-lock bag and drop it in a pan of water on the stove and just keep the water warm, not boiling for about 15 minutes. It'll flow out of there pretty good for a few minutes after you take it out of the bag to use it. As far as the X-Bridge, if that works for you than go with it. I don't have a routing template for it, but I would assume LR Baggs can steer you in the right direction. It's probably too much to expect it to drop back into your existing routings... If I was to choose between the 6 screws or the 2 pivot posts I'd probably go with the posts. No need for flattery...we show up here anyways... I think you're probably onto something with breaking this project down into sections and running a thread on each one. What you're doing does cross into several different sections of the forum and it would make it easier for future visitors to catch the topics down the road. One last question. Ever rehabbed a guitar to this level before? OK, two questions... What's the state of your tool inventory? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by sumgai on May 23, 2013 11:58:48 GMT -5
Back when ChrisK was kicking butt and taking names later, he posted the following: If you stop to think about it, which Leo obviously didn't, at no time will the bridge rest against more than two screws - the laws of chance simply won't allow for more than two of the six screws to fall in perfect alignment across their bridge-facing surfaces, nor for the exposed knife edges (of the screw holes in the bridge) to also fall into the exact same alignment. By micrometers or otherwise, there will be gaps, and it's only a crapshoot as to which two of the six will be the "winners", holding your string containing device in alignment with the neck such that it's playable. While my engineering expertise is in Electrical, like most other colleges mine required a modicum of classes in other disciplines. My gut feel upon first reading the above was "Of course, why didn't I think of that?". And so it is left up to me to give credit where it's due, and remind one and all that the 6 vs 2 screw discussion is moot. Not even the Japanese, with all their manufacturing experience, would dare to claim that their $500-$1000 guitars can meet this expectation. Perhaps a $2,000 axe, but even then, I dunno..... Or as we used to say in the aerospace industry, "You want how close a tolerance? How much money do you have?". (Again, I'd have to imagine that this adage predates modern man, and the industrial age as we know it.) Sorry if I pee'd in anyone's Cheerios, but there it is. (And for the record, Chris would not've been sorry. More like elated at having imparted some elucidation. ) HTH sumgai p.s. My search-fu is weak this morning, I can't find that thread where Chris let loose the above myth-buster. Anyone else got a clue where that might be hiding?
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Post by strat80hm on May 30, 2013 0:44:21 GMT -5
Hey Cynical1, i checked your Blue Murder: really crazy thing good to see you re into salvation too! I d love the best system: something that ll stay in tune, allows dive bombing and wide bends, yet look standard. Impregnated nut seems the way to go for me no? The crack is just along the angle, it stops at the bottom of the cavity, doesnt go any further. Basswood is very tender, i realize that on my other StratHM (that i kept stock, except for an added homemade pickguard for the look), both the holes for the strap buttons became too wide - i fixed that with titebond and picktooth, but it makes me wonder about the fragility of this essence. Good tips about heating up a bit the glue in ziplock bag: im in the City, not much animals, but a lot of elderly, thanks to whom i could get a batch of syringes for free this week! I never really rehabbed an electric guitar that necessited wood work no. I fixed cracks on my flamenco guitar, i fixed another nylon acoustic with some added pieces of wood below the top, i installed piezo systems, etc, small stuff. Dremel, circular saw, drill, heatgun.. Is this enough? Also i can probably gain access to the wood-workshop of a friend nearby who has a router. I m starting to think that i ll go for the 2 point x-bridge system, and maybe it could just accommodate the recess body: in this case, i would just have to remove the old metal insert, fill in the holes, and just drill new ones for the x-bridge (no piece of wood to glue on beforehand). Then i ll create that nice "cover" around all of this to hide the recess cavity. Does it sound reasonable thinking?
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Post by ux4484 on May 30, 2013 10:15:41 GMT -5
If you feel like shelving that project for a couple years, the BEST system WILL be available: www.evertune.com/Trem/
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Post by cynical1 on May 30, 2013 11:01:35 GMT -5
If you feel like shelving that project for a couple years, the BEST system WILL be available: www.evertune.com/Trem/I don't know if you're an investor in this project, or just an interested bystander, but this system, while apparently engineered to death, still suffers from the same inherent weakness as a 2 point...it has a mechanical wear point at the center of the arc of rotation. In fact, if I read the documentation correctly, each saddle has a mechanical point... I would call this a step up from the original 6 screw trems, but I would have to say they have over-complicated the design past the point where I would call it the "BEST" system. Introducing more points of function or points of failure seems counter-intuitive to me. I've seen enough animated CAD models turn into paperweights over the years to reserve judgement until I see it work in the real world. Not intending to channel the spirit of ChrisK here, however, I'd really have to see one in action to judge fairly...but since it's still parked in the R & D phase, that'd be tricky. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by cynical1 on May 30, 2013 12:14:49 GMT -5
Hey Cynical1, i checked your Blue Murder: really crazy thing good to see you re into salvation too! Salvation...never thought of it that way before... I just like working with older used guitars because after 20+ years the wood has stabilized...and they're usually pretty cheap to pickup. And I guess there is a certain "rescue" motivation in there somewhere...Project #1 was a real "back from the dead" thing... First off, is the current nut shelf routed for a locking nut? It's going to involve a little wood working to fit either a roller nut or a TUSQ nut...probably more for the TUSQ nut as you may need to build up behind it. IMHO, if you're not afraid of doing the work, a roller nut is always my first preference in a trem system. Especially in your case where behind the nut bends are a regular part of your style. I personally like the LSR nut, which has the small adapter extension to cover more of the existing nut shelf, but the slotted Wilkerson is a good one too. Steer clear of the one single roller styles...they really are garbage. Be aware that with any of these nuts you will have to route into the fingerboard slightly to keep the overall scale accurate. LSR roller nut kitWilkinson roller nutGarbage.The crack is really pretty typical for basswood. Basswood is prone to cracking and splitting. Ever see pictures of Vai's Evo from the back? Serious crack there...welcome to the wonderful world of basswood... It is pretty easy to fix. Just open the crack enough to inject the glue, lay a small hardwood board over the top of the section and use a bar clamp to clamp it down. Let it sit overnight and just clean up the excess glue with a razor knife blade. One thing about using toothpicks... toothpicks are made from the softest wood available to ensure long life of the toothpick machine tooling. This means when you glue it in it has the holding strength of the glue and a soft wood. For a pickguard or truss rod cover they're great. For a strap lock or button they're not the best solution. You're better off just taking a sharp knife and whittling a piece off of an oak or other hardwood board and using that. No problem. heating the glue does allow it flow through the syringe a lot easier...but you need to work fast as once it starts to cool you can blow the needle right off and leave quite a mess to clean up for yourself... Depending on your trem options, if you change pickup routings and your final choice on the nut, this may get involved. It's nothing you need Norm Arbrams for, but it will require you to use power tools, build small fixtures and measure twice, cut once. Above all, it requires patience, time, and a place to work free of obstructions to place a secure table or bench you can clamp to that will see a lot of sawdust. Workshops are great, but a basement, garage, or even a porch off the back of an apartment works. I would caution against doing this in an apartment...unless you just love to vacuum... I love Dremel tools, but for what you're doing you probably won't be using it much. You will need a router, possibly a router table, so buy your friend with the workshop a beverage or two of their choice and ask them how they feel about letting you sneak in periodically to work on a guitar. Very little of what you will be doing will involve hand tools, aside from the router. Any fill pieces will be cut on a table or jig saw. You're also going to need a good drill press...never trust your hands and eyes to drill a straight hole... A drum sander is great, but you can double task the router table for this job. Any jigs or fixtures you build will involve the same tools. Again, none of this is difficult. Slowing yourself down and working accurately is usually the hardest part to master. You can always fix mistakes, but not making them is easier. From my experience, you're going to need the piece in hand to make an accurate evaluation of how much rework is necessary. You may not have to do much if anything, or you may have to fill and completely re-route. Another point to consider is where the saddles fit on the old bridge versus the new one in regards to the guitar's scale. A difference of only 3/32" may make intonation a problem on either the high or low end later. Anything you want to start a separate thread on please feel free. This project will have a number of stages and keeping them all in one spot tends to make eyes glaze over. Breaking the stages down also allows for a better reference down the road for other forum members. So, still game to butcher some wood? Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by ux4484 on May 30, 2013 16:49:10 GMT -5
I don't know if you're an investor in this project, or just an interested bystander, but this system, while apparently engineered to death, still suffers from the same inherent weakness as a 2 point...it has a mechanical wear point at the center of the arc of rotation. In fact, if I read the documentation correctly, each saddle has a mechanical point... Wow! Living up to your name cynical1. Clearly with the shortness of my post, it was mostly meant in jest as to being "best". But as a stand-alone bridge/tuning system, I am definitely an interested bystander in the Evertune system. I saw a Tele with one last year at the Chicago Music Exchange (not for sale, one of the salesmen brought his in to show his co-workers). it was amazing, he had it set for failsafe (can't even do bends), but then he set it to allow bends with just a quick tweak of each tuner... Freaky! Some video's from NAMM this year with the Snap Dragon guitar were amazing (I should cross post it to Newey's travel guitar thread). I personally would not go in for an Evertune Trem model when it comes out, but I would like the standard model in at least one guitar (one of mine, not one of the handful of models with them currently). Other than some channels for wiring, I usually keep the router away from my guitars, but this device has kept my interest since I saw it last year. BTW the Blue Murder is aptly named, very nice. You guys have killed it here technically beyond anything I would ever consider. I've never installed a trem, but I have removed them from a few guitars to make them hardtails (two Fender styles (2 and 6 screw) and a Bigsby vibrato). I have trems on two guitars, but I don't love them, and will try to use my playing style or pedal for said effects if I can. Of the two (in my limited experience), I find the 6 screw more forgiving, stable, and easier to setup. I've tinkered with tremsetters and the like, but mostly I just go for maxing out the springs on the block, and tweaking the screws to get the bridge base 1/8 from the body. I can always get that to work reliably. I think the MagLok shows some promise as a trem stabilizing device, but I have yet to see it in action firsthand. Snap Dragon: Mag Lok: www.super-vee.com/Web_Mag-Lok_Instructions.pdf (I don't work for these companies either)
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 8, 2013 17:34:22 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for knowledgeable comments: - i now made up my mind for a 2 poles vibrato bridge. - i m going to have to fill and redrill, unavoidable.
As said, i want an integrated piezo-system, as well as a performing vibrato-bridge. I need something that s precise (wide range, stay in tune) and light-weighted, easy on the eyes (classic look, nothing too bulky)
I m about to order the LR Baggs X-Bridge Standard (2 poles + piezo), but since it exist the possibility to adapt piezo saddles to most model, i m thinking i should go for the best bridge first.
In these "order online" days, i cant see/touch this X-bridge anywhere at any local guitar shops here in NYC (GT center, Sam Ash, Main Drag Music..), and online pictures are not always accurate (frequent mismatch of Vintage and Standard pictures).
So this leaves me with questions: - does anybody know the specific vibrato-bar attach-system on the X-Bridge Standard? I personally like the old Fender system (threaded bar) as for attaching the bar.
- anybody has a Wilkinson or another good quality vibrato block on their guitars? Is it any convenient to install piezo saddles on them?
- LR Baggs X-bridge standard is about 140 USD, is there any cheaper but good quality-option?
Just double checking before ordering.
As for the nut, my preference goes for a TUSQ nut definitely (light, cheap, easier to install), but i ll keep discussing this under the proper thread.
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 8, 2013 17:50:19 GMT -5
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 9, 2013 11:26:34 GMT -5
It looks like the same design holding the bar either way. It looks like they've put some sort of plastic bushing inside the housing for the rod. Notice the small set screw at the back of the housing? My guess is that the bar is a friction mount with the small set screw to lock it. I imagine if you want it to swing free while not in use that may not happen as easily with this design. If you like the bar in a set position this should be perfect. I've never had my hands on one of these, so this is just a guess. HTC1
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