Godin Seagull Maritime modifications

[4real]

Well it was bound to happen, even on an acoustic...modifications...

My guitar these days is an all solid wood 'mini jumbo' Seagull Maritime. I chose if for a few reasons after much consideration last year, a primary desire was for the wider fretborad and solid wood, especially the top. There are a bunch of innovative and unique features to this model guitar.

I've also been experimenting with altered and open tunings. While the 'schaller like' closed tuners were decent enough, I've been 'spoiled' by the shaller locking tuners on most of my electrics and seems odd that you don't see locking tuners on acoustics too often.

One feature of the 'seagull' guitars that is obvious is their distinctive headstock shape. Some people don't like it I know, in fact godin's simon and patrick line is effectively just a seagull model with a more traditional headstock. Personally I like it on my guitar and apprectiate the reasoning for it. The much straighter string pull helps with tuning.

Seagull guitars also come standard with great Graphtech nuts and compensated bridges as well so there is no sticking of strings in the slots and such.

Other interesting features are a dual action truss rod that extends with the neck, virtually up to the fretboard. The brace just forward of the sound hole also has a very slight curve to it, this gives the top a bit of inherient strength where it is needed most through geometry. A lot of bowing of the tope comes from the fact that the sound hole cuts a big void in the very place that there is strain from the bridge. The strength also allows for a slightly lighter bracing making teh guitar more responsive. To the eye, it is barely noticable, but you can see it if you look very closely. There are lots of cool little innovations in these guitars and far cheaper for the features than any other brand.

...

Ok...so the first mod has been tuners. After being impressed with hipshots 'trilogy tailpiece' on the last project, I chose their new locking tuners and so glad I did...



They have a slightly higher 18:1 ratio for finer tuning. To do that, they have had to use an opened back design. The strings lock with rear thumb screws that will not fall out even when fully extened. The tuners can also be 'customised' with a range of alternate buttons. The standard ones are 'atypical' but are better in person than one might think. To suit this guitar I chose some small black buttons which I discovered when they arrived, have a lovely satin look and kind of light 'non slip' kind of feel to them...they feel really firm in the fingers while tuning which is great.

They do have an unusual screw placement, but came with alternative plates if you really don't want to use the screws at all...screws are neater and better. I'll post some installing pics when I get time.



From the front they look like this. The posts are a bit shorter so the same angle as if wound a lot, but as you can see, hardly any turn to get them up to standard tuning. A bit of a string stretch and retuning and it's staying in tune rock solid, even with brand new strings. I upped the gauge to 12-54 and trying uncoated Martin Phsopher bronze SP's on a recomendation. They do sound good and getting used to the gauge ok. Interestingly, the bronze coat even the high strings, so a fetching gold all round! Obviously with locking tuners, you can take the strings on and off or replace them in no time.

...

So not a lot of time just now, but this is stage one for this guitar. I will post some installation pics, perhaps a few pics of some features of the gutiar and then...on to the next stage. Due to the weather, I'd not been able to do the work I'll need to do for that and possible a couple of parts required, but am planning on an additional pickup stereo active/passive sytem and an unsual mounting scheme.

The guitar comes with a nice Q1 piezo system which I think might be a rebranded LR Baggs design. It includes a nice little tuner and simple volume, treble and bass rotary controls and a subtle feature. It does soung very good, but looking for an aditional sound source and something a little different in sound and versitlity.

[4real]

Here is a quick picture of the installation process...



These tuners perfectly fit the existing holes, other wise I'd have to use a hand reamer to enlarge them perhaps.

I've fitted them and used a straight edge to ensure they are all in line correctly. I then extended the locking screw as far as possible to get better access.

Using a sharp 1/16" bit and a hand drill marked with tape so I don't drill too far, I started the holes. I noticed that it was tricky not to get a bit of an angle with the thumb screw so once started, finished the hole with the tuners swivelled out of the way. Work slow and remove the bit occassionally and clear and blow off the dust.

The mahongany neck is a bit tough, so after the first few, wised up and rubbed the screws on a candle to 'wax them' and they went in much easier. Fortunately they came supplided with a couple of spare screws as I did strip the head of one screw in the process.

Using an electric drill I've found is not appropriate comnpared to the hand drill. They are heavy and could run away quick if not careful and not necessary for such a tiny hole. Many would adise also a 'drill press' but that risks a set neck guitar like this and again, with care, can be perfectly well done like this.

I have a blue mat there that is rubberised from the $2 shop and effectively protects the guitar and ensures it wont slide aobut. I've got good natural light and a good clear dining table to work on.

With all such things, a little care and preparation and simple tools are all that is required...

[newey]

A nice clean install. I've always liked those guitars, count me as a fan of the headstock design.

[4real]

Thanks. Bang for Buck they are hard to beat. The Maritime model is just below the top of the line but that is largely cosmetic. An all solid wood guitar like this for about $1000 out here (we pay more for everything) is pretty darn good and on a par in many respects to guitars costing 3x that or more really. It is perhaps a little 'plain jane' but that can be a good thing.

The electronics actually sould really good but kept simple. However, the next part of the mods will be adding to this system with a magnetic thing I've been thinking of. Partly cause I quite like the 'hybrid' sound, but to use open tunings, sometimes the straing are a little slack and so, the piezo is not getting as much pressure and those really low bass notes (sometimes as low as C) are hard to get a good sound out of. The intention will be to EQ to get a nice rich magnetic bass with the high end of the piezo and a common strategy these days. In addition potentially a microphone as well.

After these mods I will require some kind of 'amplification' and have a few thoughts. I may be in teh market for a small compact mixer with some basic digital effects for instance and might get away with these powered monitors I ahve to get quite a decent sound...if I'm lucky.

But, one step at a time and within budget...

The electric part of this seems like a good idea, but I need to work outside and fabricate a few aluminium bits and get some kind of new output stereo switch version to make both work. My intention is to also be able to run it passive or active in mono at a pinch...if all goes well.

But alas...the weather, winters coming early down her and been a fair bit of rain and other things to do!

[newey]

Partly cause I quite like the 'hybrid' sound, but to use open tunings, sometimes the straing are a little slack and so, the piezo is not getting as much pressure and those really low bass notes (sometimes as low as C) are hard to get a good sound out of.

That's interesting, I hadn't considered that (or encountered it) but it makes sense. I wonder what those slack-key style players do to combat this?

[4real]

Well...it's not that the piezo systems dont or can't work..

There is currently a "New wave of acoustic guitar" in recent years with a heap of innovative artists and instrument builders and perspectives towards amplifying the instruments. I've tended towards the thinking that as soon as one 'plugs in', especially with a pickup system, it is something of an electric guitar. If one takes that perspective, then there is not really a 'limit' or purisim to things so much...

Here is an interesting article with Jon Gomm who is at the forefront of this kind of thing...
nwoag.com/interview-with-jon-gomm-part-2/

"But yeah, you don’t need to spend a lot of money to get a good sound. What I always tell people is, if they want to get a good sound when they plug in, then you need two sources at least, not one. So if you have a humbucker and a microphone, or you have an undersaddle pickup and a humbucker, or contact pickups and something else, then two cheap pickups will sound better than one expensive pickup. Always."

An example of Jon Gomm's live sound...


He also uses effects a bit, primarily on the mag pup for even more variety.


I've been really admiring a bit of Erik Mongrain lately and as you can hear in this live clip, he's able to get a great sound with a combination of pickup systems...even with at times some very low altered tunings.



Another aspect is to get a fuller range of sounds and harmonics and to be able to use techniques and dynamic range and subtlties that you just can't communicate without plugging the guitar in. It's too much to ask any 'box' to be able to reproduce sounds all the way in the bass range and incredibly high harmonics at a usable volume or to play with super light techniqes and expect anyone, even the play sitting behind the instrument, to hear and use those sounds effectively.

...

My intention with this one, for now, is to make a new kind of mounting for a Fender Noiseless strat pickup I have (I notice it is sitting onthe table just under the head in the drill photo) to the internal forward brace of the guitar out of aluminium.

The idea is to connect this removable pickup with a mini jack to a fishman stereo+switch endpin jack. So, a stereo lead split to two channels, one passive mag the other active piezo. Possibly run with a normal lead as piezo only, or half pulling out the lead as mag only.

Likely about 80% piezo but the mag providing more depth and 'roundness' to a brighter piezo tone for the harmonic content and complexity. I suspect with different effects levels on each signal some nice sounds could be achieved. Perhaps a sense of 3D depths on Reverb to have the mag sound say, like a deeper quieter further back 'shadow' to the piezo sound.

Anyway, it is an experiement of sorts in these things as well as a different way of mounting and amplifying guitars. The 'souround sound' effect of the last project really is 'impressive' and can see potential in that kind of approach. For this, I'd like to streamline that a little more...

To this end, I suspect that the amplification system too will need to be reassessed and hope to develop something compact and portable but gives the feeling of a real acoustic guitar that has a sound that seems not to come from a single source but surrounds you, unlike the electric guitar usually 'feels'...

Anyway, a few early morning thoughts...

[4real]

One more part to get before doing the pickup mod...oh and finding a little time.

The intention is to mount a fender noiseless single coil strat pup to an aluminium mounting system that will hand from the forward brace. This will be wired to a new 'fishman stereo plaus power end jack". This has arrived and has 4 connections...this should allow both the piezo to go from the tip and the passive strat pup from the sleeve.

A Stereo guitar lead will be made up going from a right angle stereo jack from the guitar then splt to two sheilded leads to mono plugs on the other end.

Can people forsee problems with this scenario? Such as sharing the ground between two amplifiers or a mixer?

Amplification will be something to develop later I'm sure. I'm thinking a mixer to power monitors r a similar kind of thing. Somehting poortable yet powerful with a stereo spread likely with built in effects such as reverb and the like...

[JohnH]

Sounds cool. I can't think that such a setup would need more than normal precautions against ground loop issues eg. All the amp/PA gear is powered from one mains connection.

[4real]

Thanks John.

Awaiting this part...



This is a high quality jack for the guitar lead, which will travel down a stereo cable then split into two mono cables made from a cut guitar lead.

The fishman 'switchjack' has arrived...

www.fishman.com/products/view/switchjack

There is a PDF there that shows it to have the normal stereo connections and an extra power connection and various ways to use it (some with a zener diode) to enable passive and active systems together as in this project and numerous other combinations.

I'm anticipating that plugging the jack in half way my give the mag alone and of course, a normal lead the usual piezo only, though I suppose that remains to be seen.

How one might best amplify this to the full effect and what Kinds of sounds one might be able to achieve is a bit of an open question still. Normally people run the mag fairly low in the mix, but there are all kinds of 'effects' one can devise with the mag having a bassier EQ say and the piezo running the higher end. Compression on the mag and not the piezo too might be interesting to control dynamics. Then there is the whole area of different effects on the different sound sources that can be very effective I can envisage.

The 'surround sound' thing of the last project really did sound quite amazing and this is an attempt to further this kind of direction I guess.

One option that immediately comes to mind 'on the cheap' is that I have a pair of powered studio monitors putting out about 40watts each which are compact but quite powerful and full range and 'flat' in response. These combined with a small mixer perhaps will create a stereo sound. A small mixer these days can come with some digital effects and aux sends and eqs and could have a number of inputs and preamps to run say a condensor microphone as well.

The intention is to have a sound that does not come form a single source such as is normal with an electric guitar amp but to 'surround' the listener and player with a stereo spread. It's not necessarily to be faithfull to the acoustic sound, but it is to get an extremely high qulaity and unique sound.

The choice of pickup is in part because I happen to have one, but it also suits the guitar becaue of it's colour, a cream that matches the top. It is of course 'noiseless' which matters a lot to any of my projects these days. I'm also hoping to impart some of the 'strat sound' into a bit of a hybrid mix.

I can seem to locate it, but I did see a way to adjust the poles of a strat pickup using a vice to gently squeeze them through the bobbing. Normally this would be highly ill advised, but these do appear to be built to a bobbin in which the poles are protected from the wiring. The pickup in question is the lower powered 'noiseless' with a traditional 'stagger'. Fot his though, the pickup will need to be reversed and so too the stagger. As I am using brionze strings, it will be likely better if the poles are adjusted to a new stagger to suit. Any thoughts or links to how to do this would be appreciated...

[4real]

Ok...last part arrived...



Always a good idea to have what you need first.

Fender noiseless 'classic' pickup
fishman "switchjack" endpin stereo + power (4 connections)
Premium 90 degree stereo amphenol jack for guitar lead
Two aluminium 'struts' made so far. Riveted U-channel to 3mm arms.
Rubber 'mat' this should (hopefully) provide a pressure fit to the internal forward brace
Not shown, mini phone and shileded cable to connect passive pickup to endpin jack yet be removable.

So, I need to take the strings off and be sure that the mounting system is strong enough to support pickup. Then locate the holes carefully to mount the pickup to it, threading them for the mounting bolts. Remove existing end pin and wire piezo system to the 'tip', passive to the 'ring' and power to 'switch'. Make up "Y" stereo cable and test all is working. Remount everything and restring.

As you can see the pickup is staggered. However, I need to reverse mount the pup so the wiring if forward which reverses all the poles. I am using bronze strings (12-54) so likely will want to customize the stagger for an even response. Any ideas? 

Getting the holes just right and threaded is likely the difficult bit. I am planning on pressure fitting the struts, but may need to consider perhaps a 'clamp' of some kind, not keen on that solution, so we will see...

[newey]

As you can see the pickup is staggered. However, I need to reverse mount the pup so the wiring if forward which reverses all the poles. I am using bronze strings (12-54) so likely will want to customize the stagger for an even response. Any ideas?

Without knowing the internal construction of those noiseless pups, I'd hesitate to do anything like that. On the more modern (non-noiseless) Strat pups with the plastic bobbins, and which have the two magnets to either side of the pole pieces (the cheap Asian ones tend to use one big magnet which makes this impossible), it MIGHT be possible to (gently, with a wooden dowel)push one or more of the pole pieces inward so as to even out the heights. Those pieces would then stick out the bottom of the bobbin a bit.

On the SCs with the fiber bobbins, the wire wraps around the pole pieces directly, so you'd destroy the pickup in all likelihood. Again, not sure on the noiseless ones.

The other option would be to try to grind down the higher ones with a Dremel tool or some such, but that sounds risky as well, pretty easy to bust a wire with the vibration, I would think.

I would recommend leaving well enough alone, or getting a non-staggered pickup. If the overall pickup height will be adjustable, you can fine-tune things a bit that way.

[4real]

You are right Newey. Tricky. It would seem there are two plastic bobbin coils with the 'stack' separated by neo magnets to control the field. The ploes are similar to normal alnico and go through them all. So, the wire does not wrap difectly around the magnets like 'fiber bobbin' traditional single coils. You can't file or dremmel the magnets as that will sereiously endager them and besides would alter the length. Pusing them through with a vice is possible perhaps. Will see how 'bad' it is but esp with the brinze strings and the stagger being reversed, the G string could be very loud.

If you look at acoustic guitar players with mag pups, there is generally quite an extremely adjusted poles. However, I am intending to mount the pickup a fair way away from the straings, perhaps fairly level with the top and so that might not be as sensitive. I'll get it working before I attempt it. I did once see someone gently push the poles through as you say, perhaps with a bit of a dowel or something. Obviously with extreme care and such, but you can apply a lot of pressure with a vice.

I'll see how it turns out and how 'bad' it is, but given the cores alone will be detected with the bronze string and that the stagger is reversed, I think there may well need to be some adjustment...a different stagger as flat will still sound 'uneven'.

[newey]

Rather than subtract from the longer pole pieces, perhaps you can add to the shorter ones. Sacrifice an old pup, get some pole pieces, cut some very thin slices, machine them down to size. . . You get the drift. A drop of crazy glue to hold the slice in place, maybe.

At least you wouldn't destroy the pickup. Whether it would work or not, who knows? I've never seen or heard of anything of the sort being done.

But I can't think of any good reason why it wouldn't work. Since the "added onto" poles would not be one contiguous piece of metal, the field might be slightly different around those poles, as compared to the longer ones left unmodified. But I would think that effect would be slight, and that overall you would even out the response as you desire, since you're adding a bit of mass to the pole.

But admittedly a bit of a wild idea.

[JohnH]

A random thought offering:

If changing pole stagger proves to be too tricky, could relative pole strength be tweaked by attaching small pieces of steel under some of the poles? Ie, like a steel nut, and not seen from above
J

Edit: My post crossed with neweys, which is on a similar theme. But putting 2 and 3 together to make 4.5, how about, trash a clunky old ceramic pickup and harvest the bar magnet. Then have it positioned below the pickup, spaced off the base of the alnico poles using steel nuts which are positioned only below those poles needing a relative boost. The steel will conduct more extra magnetic flux through the boosted poles, maybe?

[4real]

Thanks Newey and John...will have to think that through a bit. Lets see how it sounds and how far it is 'out'. I suspect the G string pole, formally the D string as the pup is reversed is the main culprit and could be eased 'down' if required...

Got a little time to play with the project a little today...



Sorry for the blurry pic. Gives an idea of the idea though. The pup 'floats' from aluminium struts pressure fitted to the forward strut rather than being suspended from the top.

It took a bit of work, especially the threading of the pup mounting screws. The pup is height adjustable from each end but as is is perhaps a little deep and would like the pup to be mounted a little more forward still I think. So, this will require bending the struts up a bit which should solve both aspects. I will mount a mini phone socket and jack so that the pup is removable and other ideas perhaps experimented with at another time should I get the urge to do something without having to rewire the guitar.

Both the ideas might well work, though it would perhaps be a shame to mess with the magnetics of the 'noiseless' pup too much. I'm fairly confident about some small adjustment, but I could do either of the suggestion or indeed they might be useful in further idea.

One would be to make an ultra compact pup to fit right up against the fretboard edge and say 1/4 wide and stacked to be noiseless. It would be a pretty low impedance I'd imagine, so likely require being active and so wired to the power perhaps. However, it may well be that this 'strat' sound is the kind of thing I am looking for and not really anymore 'weird' a look than other mag pup acoustic solutions and so far, very little cost...always important. I had the pup already and matches the string spread and been impressed by the noiseless qualities and sound on my strat (they being the hotter JB models). The other costs have been the new end pin jack and the making of the Y-lead, most of those parts being available too.

[4real]

Well, had a little more time today, sometimes it is better to think through what you plan to do and imagine yourself going through the motions so you work out all the pitfalls you cvan think of...well, that's my excuse...

Now...here perhaps is a better look at my 'strut' design which I modified after the test fit pictured previously...



I bent the arms to allow for the pickup to be adjusted a little higher and screw down much tighter on the springs and also perhaps bring it a little more forward...



I have a length of shielded cable ready to take the pone jack and a 3.5mm socket that I will tape to the 'strut' so that this pup is removable (and perhaps other pup ideas could be substituted with a compatible socket in future).

The struts are 3mm aluminium and riveted to a U channel that is a little oversized for the strut. Rubber has been attached to both sides to allow a firm pressure fit and 'grip'...they are quite hard to put on and remove, which is a good thing as you definitely don't want the thing falling into the guitar. It allows for no modification to the guitar and much stronger and safer than mounting it to the top some how. The single rivet allows for a small amount of rotation to help with getting alignment and fit as required.

I have 'blacked out' the strut arms, though they really cant be seen without close inspection...this 'trick' is done with 'nail polish' and while not particularly 'neat' in this prototype, it does the job. Really, you cant see the struts anyway, but though I might as well. Will also be using black tape to hold on the jack socket to the lower arm once I get a chance to solder things up.

I'll be able to connect a temporary jack socket and test the pup once I am happy with the placement and install before proceeding and leave the pickup in place for a while to ensure I am happy with things and the pup does not interfere with the playing or acoustic sound after restringing and considering if there are any glaring 'balance' issues regarding those pole staggers.

[4real]

OK...so here is the assembly so far...it's tough getting those springs on, I might need to shorten them to be able to screw them down even lower...but gives more of an idea of how this 'invention' works...



The padded and rubberized U shaped sections fit over the internal brace, the struts have been bent a little to give more bite and adjustment and pull the pup forward a little more and hold things together. The jack socket will be wired to the twisted pup leads then taped up for insulation then taped to the underside of the lower strut with black tape though alomst of of this assembly is hidden under the pup and top so wont be seen.

The end result should be a 'no-mod' installation without attachment to the top and minimal affect to the sound hole acoustics.

Again the idea is based on Jon Gomm's comments quoted earlier and other peoples practice and comments regarding pup systems that any combination of pups will be superior to a single system such as a piezo. I'm not too keen on internal mic solutions which comes up hear occasionally though there are good options these days in that regard, for one reason I don't want the guitar to be so 'live' that you get handling noise and such. A passive mag system also allows for either the passive or piezo system to be used separately.

Amplification will be something to consider along the track I am sure. For now when complete, I'll be able to run both systems into the recording audio interface and get a reasonable idea about the potential such as running effects on different channels and balance of volume and tone. I'll also be able to test these powered studio monitors as perhaps a suitable candidate for a small stereo amplification system combined with a small mixer perhaps. Maybe adding small powered PA boxes if ever I 'play out' and need more than 40 watts a side.

So, so far so good and much according to the original 'plan'...always possible something may go wrong, so worth taking it slow and testing along the way to ensure everything is going as desired.

[4real]

Ok...a couple of pics of the test fitting with the modified mounting system as above...pretty happy with it so far...



Pickup mounts just shy of 'touching' the sound board and pretty much as far forward as I'd want it. You can see here why I have reversed the pickup so the connections are forward. Also, how the struts are 'hidden' and the 'black' effectively hiding any hint of how it is mounted. The mounting too seems to be pretty sturdy allowing a fair pressure to move it and will of course be protected by the strings.



This shot shows how I got a bit more 'height' by the adjustment as well, springs are a lot tighter and so pup should not vibrate or feedback, one hopes. You can see the pronounced 'stagger' of the poles here with a particularly high pole under the G string. I am using a wound G, 12-54 set in phosphor bronze, so it will only be the core of the string that will be sensed. Not sue how such pups are normally adjusted for this kind of application.

Anyway, so far so good and no harm to the guitar, as yet....

Next step is to get the soldering iron out and make up a test lead and the stereo cable. If that all checks out, the more nerve wracking endpin 'switch jack' to combine the existing piezio. As far as I can tell though, the new jack will look identical to the one in there and so should fit without modification to the guitar itself...

I want to fit a strap button to the neck, not sure yet where to mount that, under the heel, or to the side of the neck or similar kind of thing...any thoughts?

[ux4484]

I've been back and forth on locking tuners on acoustics. On mine, the stock tuners are SO good, and I rarely change strings on them compared to the electrics (which is I think why more don't have them) I just haven't felt the need.
I know what you're going for with the strat pup. I had the desire to do something similar on the Maderia/Guild dreadnought my wife has (she got me the Yamaha A/E to prevent me from doing it). I was thisclose on a couple Dean Markley's on EBay/CL, but they are not THAT different tonally from the piezo in the Yamaha. This was solved for me when I got my Mustang III, the samples are good enough to get a strat-like tone from the piezo. Heck, I used it for a baritone and a bass on some recordings (because I didn't have to switch guitars and tune them) and it is very passable/usable for my use. I didn't get the upsidown until I saw the picture, and I was thinking a Tele bridge pup would have a bigger tab. If those pole pieces are potted, you may want to take it off and heat it up with a hair dryer after getting the poles set to your liking to clear up any air gaps that may have been creating by adjusting them (I did this with the Alnico V pups in the pickguard I bought, as the previous owner had it set for a much bass-ier twang than I prefer).
On the strap peg: I've never been able to bring myself to drill into the beautiful back of the Maderia, but I did install one on my Wasburn Rover, right on the back of the heel like my Yamaha:
This keeps the slight neck dive of the Rover to a minimum, and is the thickest part of the surrounding area. I'm surprised ANY A/E wouldn't have front strap peg.

[4real]

Jun 19, 2013 11:18:52 GMT -5 ux4484 said:

I've been back and forth on locking tuners on acoustics. On mine, the stock tuners are SO good, and I rarely change strings on them compared to the electrics (which is I think why more don't have them) I just haven't felt the need.
I know what you're going for with the strat pup. I had the desire to do something similar on the Maderia/Guild dreadnought my wife has (she got me the Yamaha A/E to prevent me from doing it). I was thisclose on a couple Dean Markley's on EBay/CL, but they are not THAT different tonally from the piezo in the Yamaha. This was solved for me when I got my Mustang III, the samples are good enough to get a strat-like tone from the piezo. Heck, I used it for a baritone and a bass on some recordings (because I didn't have to switch guitars and tune them) and it is very passable/usable for my use. I didn't get the upsidown until I saw the picture, and I was thinking a Tele bridge pup would have a bigger tab. If those pole pieces are potted, you may want to take it off and heat it up with a hair dryer after getting the poles set to your liking to clear up any air gaps that may have been creating by adjusting them (I did this with the Alnico V pups in the pickguard I bought, as the previous owner had it set for a much bass-ier twang than I prefer).
On the strap peg: I've never been able to bring myself to drill into the beautiful back of the Maderia, but I did install one on my Wasburn Rover, right on the back of the heel like my Yamaha: View Attachment
This keeps the slight neck dive of the Rover to a minimum, and is the thickest part of the surrounding area. I'm surprised ANY A/E wouldn't have front strap peg.

Thanks UX.

Locking tuners certainly make string changes easier, but it is really for the tuning stability and precision when changing tunings and to that extent they are an improvement. The stock tuners were similar to schallers and very decent but these are definitely an improvement with no windings around the tuning posts which is a bit of the culprit. If you aren't changing tunings then stability is likely not that necessary and it does seem to be rare, if ever, you see locking tuners on an acoustic.

Effect modelling can be effective and for most I think something like a Behringer acoustic modeller pedal, although a little 'hissy' is going to suffice and provide more options that adding a piezo to an electric and be cheaper, non-invasive and used on any guitar, so that is definitely something people might want to consider.

This guitar is called a 'mini-jumbo' and all solid wood full sized acoustic, though a little thinner than a huge full sized jumbo. It has quite a wide fretboard which is necessary for this fingerpicking style I'm interested in. The is a much more 'balanced' tone than many guitars this sized, a bit like a 'grand auditorium' kind of thing...so the full bass, midrange and clear trebles and harmonic shimmer in fairly even measure. It also has a Q1 piezo system, which I believe is designed by LR Baggs. It has a simple bass treble and chromatic tuner but sound very good.

Mini-Jumbo Specs...



However, the acoustic when amplified kind of becomes a different beast. I am hoping with multiple pickup sources to get a more 'multi-dimentional' kind of sound. And of course, I will be running in stereo and hoping to have a 'stereo sound' and 'stereo effects chains' as well eventually.

Some may not be familiar with the 'jazz strat' thing I built last year which I hope would suffice for the direction I was going in. As a prototype and idea it was extremely interesting and effective, but really does not have the quality (being made from spare parts largely) and still some 'bugs' in the electronics and other aspects. However, it did give me a bit of a taste for the idea of stereo 'surround sound' using multiple amps and sound sources.

MULTI-TUNING "JAZZ BOX" PROJECT



This guitar has a number of different mono and stereo outputs with both piezo and magnetic outputs. The sound out of two amps is quite a different experience to play and hear. It's quite a different experience to have the sound come from all around, rather than a single 'direction' like a guitar amp which feels kind of 'remote' and the combining of pickup systems does seem to add more 'depth' to the sound than a single system. Having that option allows for a greater 'mix' of sound and to run stereo effects, such as effecting only the mag sound say. For instance, one might add a deeper reverb 'depth' to one signal than the other and get a less woolly and present dry piezo signal shadowed by a more 'distant' mag signal which can give phenomenal 'depth' combined with a stereo system to give more of a 'surround sound' kind of effect. Similarly you could use compression on the mag to ensure a longer fuller sustain after the initial 'burst' of the piezo's attack, or to give dynamic control, while still maintaining the 'dynamics' if that makes sense, so you are not 'squashing' everything. I suspect there are a whole world of things to explore with such a system.

[4real]

Jun 19, 2013 11:18:52 GMT -5 ux4484 said:

I've been back and forth on locking tuners on acoustics. On mine, the stock tuners are SO good, and I rarely change strings on them compared to the electrics (which is I think why more don't have them) I just haven't felt the need.
I know what you're going for with the strat pup. I had the desire to do something similar on the Maderia/Guild dreadnought my wife has (she got me the Yamaha A/E to prevent me from doing it). I was thisclose on a couple Dean Markley's on EBay/CL, but they are not THAT different tonally from the piezo in the Yamaha. This was solved for me when I got my Mustang III, the samples are good enough to get a strat-like tone from the piezo. Heck, I used it for a baritone and a bass on some recordings (because I didn't have to switch guitars and tune them) and it is very passable/usable for my use. I didn't get the upsidown until I saw the picture, and I was thinking a Tele bridge pup would have a bigger tab. If those pole pieces are potted, you may want to take it off and heat it up with a hair dryer after getting the poles set to your liking to clear up any air gaps that may have been creating by adjusting them (I did this with the Alnico V pups in the pickguard I bought, as the previous owner had it set for a much bass-ier twang than I prefer).
On the strap peg: I've never been able to bring myself to drill into the beautiful back of the Maderia, but I did install one on my Wasburn Rover, right on the back of the heel like my Yamaha: View Attachment
This keeps the slight neck dive of the Rover to a minimum, and is the thickest part of the surrounding area. I'm surprised ANY A/E wouldn't have front strap peg.

Thanks UX.

Locking tuners certainly make string changes easier, but it is really for the tuning stability and precision when changing tunings and to that extent they are an improvement. The stock tuners were similar to schallers and very decent but these are definitely an improvement with no windings around the tuning posts which is a bit of the culprit. If you aren't changing tunings then stability is likely not that necessary and it does seem to be rare, if ever, you see locking tuners on an acoustic.

Effect modelling can be effective and for most I think something like a Behringer acoustic modeller pedal, although a little 'hissy' is going to suffice and provide more options that adding a piezo to an electric and be cheaper, non-invasive and used on any guitar, so that is definitely something people might want to consider.

This guitar is called a 'mini-jumbo' and all solid wood full sized acoustic, though a little thinner than a huge full sized jumbo. It has quite a wide fretboard which is necessary for this fingerpicking style I'm interested in. The is a much more 'balanced' tone than many guitars this sized, a bit like a 'grand auditorium' kind of thing...so the full bass, midrange and clear trebles and harmonic shimmer in fairly even measure. It also has a Q1 piezo system, which I believe is designed by LR Baggs. It has a simple bass treble and chromatic tuner but sound very good.

Mini-Jumbo Specs...



However, the acoustic when amplified kind of becomes a different beast. I am hoping with multiple pickup sources to get a more 'multi-dimentional' kind of sound. And of course, I will be running in stereo and hoping to have a 'stereo sound' and 'stereo effects chains' as well eventually.

Some may not be familiar with the 'jazz strat' thing I built last year which I hope would suffice for the direction I was going in. As a prototype and idea it was extremely interesting and effective, but really does not have the quality (being made from spare parts largely) and still some 'bugs' in the electronics and other aspects. However, it did give me a bit of a taste for the idea of stereo 'surround sound' using multiple amps and sound sources.

MULTI-TUNING "JAZZ BOX" PROJECT



This guitar has a number of different mono and stereo outputs with both piezo and magnetic outputs. The sound out of two amps is quite a different experience to play and hear. It's quite a different experience to have the sound come from all around, rather than a single 'direction' like a guitar amp which feels kind of 'remote' and the combining of pickup systems does seem to add more 'depth' to the sound than a single system. Having that option allows for a greater 'mix' of sound and to run stereo effects, such as effecting only the mag sound say. For instance, one might add a deeper reverb 'depth' to one signal than the other and get a less woolly and present dry piezo signal shadowed by a more 'distant' mag signal which can give phenomenal 'depth' combined with a stereo system to give more of a 'surround sound' kind of effect. Similarly you could use compression on the mag to ensure a longer fuller sustain after the initial 'burst' of the piezo's attack, or to give dynamic control, while still maintaining the 'dynamics' if that makes sense, so you are not 'squashing' everything. I suspect there are a whole world of things to explore with such a system.

I believe the pups are wound on self contained bobbins and so, the mags while potted are largely 'pressure fitted' and not in contact with the wire and you can see they go right through. The noiseless design is a stack of two coils with a middle layer of side magnets. Given that the strings are bronze, only the cores are magnetic. What you don't want for instance, is that G string to be excessively loud compared to the others, but only testing will show if this is a 'problem' and then I will tackle if from there. I think a very gentle squeezing on the poles should be able to shift them the mm or so required, if that is required.

The guitar does not have a strap button other than the end pin. I got a nice 'wooden' button from stew-mac when I got the new end-pin jack. I'm loath to drill into the guitar of course, however! A location as you show would be a neat one, and my guitar has a slightly inset heal so the strap button would not protrude beyond the body. But many guitar put it on the front or even the side of the neck heal. My concern is to not have the strap pull off, the body on an acoustic is quite deep after all and this is not a guitar you are going to want to 'drop'. Perhaps there is a way to better 'lock' a strap to the guitar.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts. In any project I do, I like to have something a bit different or explore some ideas. In this one, the "innovation' is largely in the mounting system which looks so far to be a reasonable success. The rewiring of teh guitar to stereo though, may allow me to explore some alternative ideas I've had for a while also in more compact mag systems for acoustic guitars, but who knows if I will get around to exploring that kind of thing. It may well be that this system is interesting enough and unique in sound and flexibility for my purposes and so, leave it at that. I might add that, playing solo acoustic guitar, the sound and tone of the instrument is a lot more important than in a context where the guitar is a flavor in a mix, so any small increment in improvement, makes a big difference in the end as it is so 'exposed'.

With luck, I'll be able to do a little soldering today and resting it, I've been missing her...

[4real]

Ok...got a bit of time to do a little soldering so I could restring the guitar...


This shows the mini phone connection taped to the lower strut and invisible externally...



Restrung with the pickup in it's final position...



I did a bit of preliminary testing, there is not too much of a problem with the 'stagger' as the pickup is a fair way from the strings. Because there are no pots involved, the signal goes direct and so is pretty 'bright', perhaps I should add a 5ook resistor to the cable at some point to tone it down a bit...any thoughts?

I messed about with the tone controls on the amp though to get a decent sound, basically 'flat' seems to be ok with all tones about centred. It doesn't sound 'stratty' as such or even that deep tone of a neck pickup, but it is an effective sound and generally quiet even without any string grounding. I am hoping I won't be needing that if I can avoid it. Any very slight 'buzz' I think is from the 'open' jack socket rigged for the test, but even then pretty quiet.

Compared to the piezo, it does have a bit of acoustic quality, being not a super hot pup and well away from the bronze wound strings. What it does better than the piezo are harmonics that ring loud and true all over the neck and there is no piezo 'quack' which is another reason to use a mag in combination with a piezo to smooth that effect out. You can also do a nice 'slap bass' like effect with the thumb near the bridge, a technique that I wanted to explore that acoustically and with the piezo, was not quite so successful.

I've not got quite the sound I am looking for yet, but this is only a preliminary test and at least works and seems to have a lot of potential.

The mounting system idea is the 'innovation' in this project and to that extent, and as a prototype, it seems to be a success . The mounting is invisible and makes no modification to the guitar and seems reasonably sturdy. There is no noise from the top or taping on the soundboard which some mag installs to the top can some times pick up but I wanted to avoid.

An example of 'sound' from many I admire might be something like this...(effected with chorus, but combining piezo and mag pickups in a live sound). Strap button placement is into the heal and on some guitars to the side of the heal which would seem to be the most advantageous to not falling off I guess...





And of course Erik Mongrain's great live sound, again with mag and piezo pups and such...



Not quite there, but early days and really, to produce that range, my old roland guitar amp has it's limitations and the real 'tone' is likely to be found in a more advanced amplification system with a far wider range and control of the signals...

[ux4484]

On the strap peg, I've never had the Yamaha slip off the Levy strap that is always on it (quite the chore to get it off for the picture).
Since the Rover is kind of floppy and neck divey while playing... just in case, I installed an Ernie Ball strap lock peg (can be used a traditional peg as well). The Rover popped right off the strap the second time I used it (without the locking top). Needless to say, the locking top has been on its strap ever since.
The only guitars I've ever had with the peg on the heel jump off (or near jump off ) a strap were neck diving models (Gibson/Epi EB series bass, or any Hofner-esque hollow body).
I'm using my SA padded strap on the Epi Dot (peg on the heel) as its the right length for the larger body, it's rock solid with a slightly floppy front strap hole.
Sorry, I just hate "seeing" a strap peg on the top/side of a beautiful acoustic.

[4real]

I know what you mean, hence asking for suggestions, you only want to drill once, but you don't want it to ever 'drop'...

Here's a look at the heel on the seagull...



As you can see, there is a bit of a shelf below the body on the end the heal with a decorative 'cap' on it. The heel has an adequate 'shoulder' to say mount it to the lower side which you see a bit and likely never to fall off, or the front but I suspect less advantageous.



Above is a strap button I got from stew mac and new for them. It is snake wood, but almost black and has a brass inset for the screws countersink and seems pretty strong.

Because of the 'shelf' I'm not sure if the strap might fall off, but perhaps I could modify the strap in some way. What are these straplock things you have?

[ux4484]

Ernie Ball Strap locks

[4real]

Ah, ok...not seen those but had a similar system on my LP many years ago. On my electrics these days I have been using schaller I think they are locks which are even safer I think but worried about them marking the guitar, these would perhaps be a better solution, have to think about that. I wondered if there might be a DIY solution to a conventional button by altering the strap or making some kind of washer. First thing that came to mind was a kind of O-ring sewn to the strap and securing it to the button perhaps, hmm. Will ahve to think about the options a little more I guess. I might ahve to consider a new strap as well perhaps, perhaps something with a narrower fix to the forward button, it is not as if this guitar is heavy.

Practically all acoustics are neck heavy given how light the bodies are...

[ux4484]

My Daughter's friend has one of These and swears by it.
I've seen a few guys with this Planet Waves Model.
Though if you (like me) prefer a piece of leather next to your acoustics, a Lock-it strap may be the best option.
The reason I even ended up with the EB locks is they were in the clearance bin at GC for $12 (because EB had changed the packaging?!). I bought 3 sets, but have only used them on my Rover. Since the EB locks INSIDE the strap button, on a heel button it does sit further away from your body as opposed to a standard strap.

[4real]

Well, on a budget you know....and I wonder if there might be a DIY solution. These are all interesting. As it is a light guitar, I might get by with a canvas, leather ended strap I have and see if I can DIY something for a conventional strap button while I look for something else. Because the shelf in the heel is there, I might need something a bit thinner on that end, a wide solide strap lock is unlikely to fit on the recessed button. I kind of like the idea of it being on the bottom of the heel as there would be no 'twisting' but, the lower side of the heel seems to be technically 'the best' as far as not falling off...hmmm...

Thanks for all those links though, gives me a few ideas...

Any ideas for a DIY solution would be interesting though...cheers...

I suppose I should point out that the end pin socket when playing electric at least, will have a solid right angle plug into it which will guard against anything coming adrift.

[ux4484]

After reading about half of your jazz box project (that is a freakin' NOVEL!), I'm thinkin' you could rig something up with mousetraps.

Just for the entertainment value alone, I should send you a D'Andrea strap or a set of EB locks as thanks.

[4real]

Jun 20, 2013 7:08:30 GMT -5 ux4484 said:

After reading about half of your jazz box project (that is a freakin' NOVEL!), I'm thinkin' you could rig something up with mousetraps.

Just for the entertainment value alone, I should send you a D'Andrea strap or a set of EB locks as thanks.

That's ok, glad you enjoyed it, these things tend to take a while and a lot of work, especially that one...plus, I used to add in quite a few pictures and diversions and such...

here's a pics from last weekend...



There are a few more in the gallery, but they will relate back to long posts, especially the strat as I recall, if you need a read...

It's kind of what the place is about, doing something 'different' perhaps, trying something new, collaborating with others and picking up tips...like using mousetraps and what have you...

I think I might find a way of securing a strap too if I put my mind too it...will think about it...

The 'jazz strat' is a great 'concept' though, it's just that I could not build it quite up to the kind of standard I need nor really cured some of the bugs, but it did show an enormous amount of potential...