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Post by strat80hm on Jun 4, 2013 14:30:05 GMT -5
On my quest for assembling my dream guitar, next after the neck comes the body. I want it very light, yet resonant. I want it fitted for a 24 fret-neck with a real easy access to upper register (allowing barre chords on 19th fret for instance). I want it traditional looking - strat or maybe tele style, with a pickguard and chrome hardware i guess. Also it will need to fit: - non-locking vibrato-system - probably an X-bridge standard with piezo saddles from LRBaggs - 1 humbucker - 1 single coil - 1 sustainer circuit+driver - possibly a preamp for the piezo (with volume knob?) - a kill switch - either a button or a toggle-switch a la Les Paul - a master switch selector (toggle switch or 5-position fender-style) - master volume and master tone Along with dream neck (see other threads), came this body here that i m planning on using. - It s basswood i guess, very light but very tender, hence a short crack between the neck pocket and neck-pickup cavity that i ll fix soon with titebond and syringe. - it s perfectly fitted for the 2 octave-neck (..) - it s fitted for a Kahler Spyder vibrato-bridge: this implies filing up existing holes and re-drilling (standard bridges have narrower width - only a Floyd Rose can fit existing poles, with is not my direction. - it has that routing that i m planning on hiding around and below new brigde with flat pickguard material - or using a hollow metallic cover like on early Strat, Tele, JazzBass, which could allow to be creative by lodging some electronic or battery beneath said cover (?). - some routing will be needed anyway above or below, for the extra electronic (sustainer, piezo, batteries). Maybe a pool-cavity below pickguard to allow mid-pickup. - it comes with this not so "traditional" dark deep purple look that could maybe be brighten with chromes and brighter (Ivory? light Pink? Light Green?) pickguard. I would have loved to round up these sharp angles around the body for a smoother look and feel - this would mean sanding and painting, allowing to choose the color, and have a neater bridge area - but that s maybe too much work. One question that sometimes cross my mind is: given all the butchering coming ahead, should i go... or should i find a blank body with no routing (not easy given the 2 octave neck) and start the work from there? Thoughts welcome.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 4, 2013 22:51:22 GMT -5
On my quest for assembling my dream guitar, next after the neck comes the body. All well within the realm of possibility. I'll leave the wiring for that part of the forum and address the less erudite parts of the project. As far as fitting all of this business into the guitar, you're going to need to make some space. There are many places selling control cavity templates. The good ones are two piece to allow you to route the cavity, as well as the recess for the cover. This also doubles as the template to make said cover. I looks like this was a two humbucker guitar someone added a pickguard to in order to mount a single coil...but I've been wrong before. You can use this to your advantage and do your pickup swimming pool routing to allow for the single coils sustainer driver and a single coil, or noiseless single coil passive pickup. Making a new pickguard isn't hard if you have a good template and a router table with a top bearing bit. You can even use an angle router bit with a bearing to cut the shape and make a bevel. The routing for the LR Baggs system is still something I'd have to see to give you an honest appraisal of what's involved. I don't know what the neck was on that body to begin with. Your neck looks like one off of the old HM Strats, but those were usually an HSS configuration, which indicates to me a mismatch body and neck. So there may be some calculations in determining if the 24 fret neck you have will even work with the existing location of the trem routings. If you need some help with the scale and hashing that out just ask. Many of the non-traditional Strats built in the 80's were either basswood or alder. I'm guessing by the crack in the neck pocket and the gouge in the pickup\trem routings that this is basswood. The color will give it away. Alder is usually a light red or pink hued wood, where basswood is very pale, almost an off white. Both woods will give you what you're after in light weight. Again, double check the scale length coincides with the trem routings. On a 25.5" scale guitar, it's 25.5" to the high E or B as a rule, measures from the front of the nut to the saddle. If this guitar had a 21 or 22 fret neck this may skew that distance and it'll need to be moved. This may also effect your pickup routings. Do you know the scale of this neck? You may need to route and fill this area to allow you to make the correct routings for the LR Baggs trem. Not difficult, but it does add time to the project. You should be able to salvage the trem back routing provided you don't have to make drastic changes on the top routing locations. My preference has always been back routing as it keeps the front looking cleaner and eliminates the need for a custom pickguard. Your call here. Right now it's looking like a refinish is a good possibility. If so, you can be as creative as you like. Again, with the high probability of a refinish, you might just want to have at it and make the body reshapes. You might even want to rasp the body reliefs to fit your exact human shape to make it more comfortable. The finish on these things is hard, but brittle. If you're going to do a solid color refinish using a heat gun will work faster than sandpaper to strip it. This stuff laughs at chemical strippers. I think we broached this subject in another thread. Working from a completely blank body will require some accurate tools and templates. Right now a lot of your reference points are already there. As long as there's no hurry you could go either way. It really is a 6 to 1, half a dozen question. A new body is just as much work, and more money. The old body may require some tweaking, but there is no additional expense to acquire it. Your call. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 5, 2013 15:35:49 GMT -5
Cool, now we re talking. Definitely Basswood then. This is actually an HM Strat from the 80s and this model came with that tele-pickguard and slanted LaceSensor single coil. I measure 25'5" on the E string. The neck and the body are actually from the same Fender HM, so there are no neck-body matching issue (you cant see the headstock on the picture, but the neck is the one). On this forum, i separated them for clarity. I guess i need to order this X-Bridge and see from then. At least i now know that im going for the 2 poles system (Standard, as opposed to Vintage, which was my first preference). This phase indeed is gonna be something I never thought about front routing until last night, when i realized that the "back trem" area is gonna have to be addressed regardless. If i choose to not go for a full refinish, then i could deepen the cavity, hopefully lodge the the sustainer circuit there and get away with some custom pickguard there. That would solve a lot of problems. Interesting option yup. I not tall (5'7") and the idea of a slightly smaller-scale guitar has always been in the back of my head. What you re saying here is: Go for it, make it your dream guitar for real! :-D . I d have to consider that direction. Lately i was more into: let s just fit the beast with my dream specs (neck, pickup, vibrato), but true, that ll be interesting to go full-blast and address the size, roundup the angles, choose the color... this being said, i wanted to bring this guitar on tour this Summer on the West Coast and in Europe, so time-constraint is in my mind as well... As said, i never embarked in such a project, will i have the patience? Thanks for re-opening the idea Cynical1, still debating here...
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 5, 2013 21:54:37 GMT -5
Definitely Basswood then. This does make things easier, as basswood is like butter to route OK, here's my concern expressed in a bit more detail. I'm assuming the original neck was 21 frets, typical Fender configuration. This gives you 17.919" from the nut to the 21st fret. Add a ballpark of .375" to the end of the heel and you're at roughly 18.294" The neck you want to use is 24 frets with the same scale. This would put the 24th fret at 19.125" without adding anything more down to the end of the heel. This will probably work out to a length difference in necks of right around and inch, or just south of it. You don't have an inch to fudge the neck pocket, or in the maple side of the heel of the neck...so this will more than likely be made up at the bridge. So, this is beginning to look more and more like a fill and re-route for the LR Baggs trem unit. Make sense? It does. And get a sample of the routing template, or a real routing template from them if they have one. Best $10.00-$20.00 you'll spend. You're not going to be routing around the existing back trem routings. Anytime I've done something like this I'm looking for real estate elsewhere on the guitar. Either behind the bridge, expanding the existing cavity or on the chin side of the guitar. With the body reliefs on this style of guitar there isn't much there, so you're probably going to working in a big "L" off the existing cavity. This is why I like the back routing...more room to fudge without the front looking like one big obscene pickguard. And don't plan on burying the sustainer board in a swimming pool route. the two switches are integral and would be a bit more than awkward sticking out that close to the strings. You may be able to squeeze a preamp in there if the board isn't too thick because deepening the cavity could pop you right through to the back trem cavity. Something else to consider, you've got the sustainer, preamp and additional switches to squeeze in there. Running wires back and forth between the pickups and under the pickguard and strings is a maintenance nightmare down the road. Back routes smartly put allow complete access with the guitar strung. Interesting option yup. I not tall (5'7") and the idea of a slightly smaller-scale guitar has always been in the back of my head. What you re saying here is: Go for it, make it your dream guitar for real! :-D . I d have to consider that direction. Lately i was more into: let s just fit the beast with my dream specs (neck, pickup, vibrato), but true, that ll be interesting to go full-blast and address the size, roundup the angles, choose the color... this being said, i wanted to bring this guitar on tour this Summer on the West Coast and in Europe, so time-constraint is in my mind as well... As said, i never embarked in such a project, will i have the patience? Thanks for re-opening the idea Cynical1, still debating here... By all means, go for it. This is a guitar you don't have to settle with. Change the body, paint it chartreuse... I would seriously re-evaluate having all of this work, including the paint and setup, finished for a tour this summer. I'm not a betting man, but I'd call that a long shot. There is a lot of rework to the body, there's lead time on components, working out the final switching and controls...depending on the paint used it's a 7-30 day curing time before you can buff it out...and you will be learning and doing things on a guitar for the first time to boot. Maybe by Halloween if you're persistent... But hey, I've been wrong before Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by newey on Jun 6, 2013 5:04:58 GMT -5
Cyn, I think you missed the part where Strat8Ohm said the body and neck were a pair.
But I agree with Cyn that this unit isn't going to be done in time for a summer tour, unless you can assign something like 4 people to help you crank it out. Rushing a job like this virtually guarantees it won't be right in the end, unless you've got a lot of these rebuilds in your resume.
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Post by cynical1 on Jun 6, 2013 10:09:07 GMT -5
Cyn, I think you missed the part where Strat8Ohm said the body and neck were a pair. Guess I did...CRS... HTC1
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Post by strat80hm on Jun 8, 2013 17:06:34 GMT -5
Indeed, neck and body are from the same guitar: this is why this direction has my preference. I went through the hassle once..
Well, i m trying to find a creative way to hide the soon-to-be-useless routing because of smaller-regular-non-locking-vibrato-bridge. I was thinking about a nicely shaped flat cover between the bridge and the bottom of the guitar (where the straplock pin is), probably looking like a faux-tailpiece or something. Then i thought that i could even use a hollow cover to create the same faux-tailpiece trick, but this way i d have extra room under this cover for something: either the sustainer board, or the x-bridge preamp, or simply the battery.
No, definitely not, if i do a pool that ll be to accomodate a middle single coil pickup (so far, i m planning the sustainer-driver on the neck and a humbucker on the bridge).
This is a good point Cyn1, the guitar strung! Although i m going to need a main front pickguard anyway to accommodate 3 pickups. I m foreseeing the toggle kill-switch on the lower horn - most ergonomic location i can think of, although i like it around the volume/tone knobs too.
I fixed the crack with titebond3 and syringe (it took 3 Insulin Syringes 30 gauge 5/16" length), seems to be sturdy now.
I received a sustainer yesterday (FSK101) and did a quick out-of-body-installation to try it, works fine.
As for having this ready for the tour, i think it might be possible to do a "test" version, with just the sustainer and a non-locking system. If it s satisfying, then i ll go for the full thing, with possible sanding/painting.
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Post by strat80hm on Jan 30, 2014 1:43:30 GMT -5
Question 1 - is there any danger in downsizing this basswood strat body? We all know EVH story - ruining the sound of his Ibanez Destroyer by cutting a chunk off - but i mean, if i make sure i leave enough thickness for the cavity walls, i am not jeopardizing the guitar s structure, am i? I know the old paint is helping in holding the wood together, but I find the shape a tad too long; cutting off about 1 inch at the bottom would bring on some sexy curves. Front view Back view Then i ll route the 3x2in for the sustainer circuit. Question 2: to recreate the rounded edge, do i have to use the router or could i go with a file?
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Post by strat80hm on Jan 31, 2014 1:46:05 GMT -5
I m studying where to fit the controls and eiectronic, therefore deciding where to route the extra-cavities. I have to organize and fit: - 2 pickups (mini-humbuckers from a Les Paul) - 1 sustainer driver + circuit - 4 knobs (master VOL. + master TONE + sustainer INTENSITY + piezo bridge VOL.) - 2 switches (5 ways-pickup SWITCH + master KILLSWITCH) Here are 2 mockups of where my mind is at so far: This one with the piezo VOL. on the upper horn: That one with the piezo VOL. with the other pots. My concerns are wether or not this is a good idea to dig hole into these horns. Also wondering if should i route from the front of from the rear. Any thoughts welcome as always
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Post by ux4484 on Jan 31, 2014 3:18:10 GMT -5
I can't really say for placement, there are many here more qualified to help on that, but with all the wood you already have to dig out, it doesn't seem prudent to reduce the body size.
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Post by newey on Jan 31, 2014 6:49:36 GMT -5
8Ω-
Earlier in the thread, I think cyn1 recommended a rear rout, and I agree. Fashioning custom rear covers is easier than a custom pickguard, and the rear covers can be DIY'd, but a custom pickguard would (realistically) have to be professionally done to get it to look decent. That adds cost.
If you do go for a rear rout, however, you have the task of cutting a slot for the 5-way. I'm not sure how you'd do that (never done it myself), but I'm guessing a scrollsaw or jigsaw of some sort will be necessary.
Also, if you go for a rear rout, you'll need long-shaft pots, which it doesn't appear that you have, assuming the parts shown in the photo are what you will be using.
Also, I'm not sure the 5-way switch can go on the bout, at least not in the orientation you show it. Looks like there would be too little wood on each side. Also, wiring-wise, you end up with a long run up to the bout for a whole lot of wires (you'll want to use shielded cable for those runs), and then back down to the other controls. I'd look to try to get the 5-way into the control cavity.
The kill switch placement on the bout isn't so problematic, as it's only two wires up and back. The question with the killswitch is really: Where do you want it to be for ease of use?
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Post by strat80hm on Jan 31, 2014 15:48:29 GMT -5
it doesn't seem prudent to reduce the body size. Thanks for input. Indeed, i have concerns too. I m gonna to the safe way and leave it as is for now.
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Post by strat80hm on Jan 31, 2014 16:35:58 GMT -5
Thanks for advices and experience. The whole mock-up is trying to get obstacle free strumming with ergonomic positioning AND sturdy structure. How little wood is not enough? Here it seems to fit. i m wondering if it s weakens the guitar though. - i like the way Fender conceived the Jaguar/Jazzmaster: very ergonomic with a lot of uncluttered room for the strumming hand. - i do not mind a custom pickguard - once i actually made one from scratch wood that s comesticaly decent actually - as that ll be easier for soldering/maintaining i seems. - If front-routed, i m thinking 2 half-pickguards (upper and lower) - the 5 way switch (double wafer) must be accessible while playing: i like to change pickups as i strum/arpeggiate, so it needs to be around the horns i guess. I d like it just above the fretboard as well - if it s structurally sound. - to avoid useless routing, the sustainer s circuit could also fit below the pickups. Then i d replace the board-mounted toggle-switches with 2 slide-switches like those: Looks like the body is thick enough to fit the circuit (without the toggle) + slide switches Not sure if i m making the right decision. I d like to start routing today/tomorrow and get a first prototype for a show this weekend..
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Post by 4real on Jan 31, 2014 17:39:40 GMT -5
I've serious conerns about the ability for the sustainer to work in this position and electronic selection applications. How much real world testing has been done on this ~ aesthetics and such are all fine and well, but insignificant if it does not work as intended.
Some of your placement ideas would not have fit, there is an example of a Jem routed out for a fernandes sustainerunder the strings somwhere on the net...
But, basswood is not very structurally strong and already cracking, with all these cavities you are likely to significantly weaken it structurally ~ and at the very least, surely be neck heavy
With these kinds of projects, I've always tested out the set up, incrimentally in a test instrument before getting ambitious about how to fit everything in ~
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Post by strat80hm on Jan 31, 2014 18:39:20 GMT -5
Good point 4Real: so far i only did a quick real world installation - sustainer driver (at the bridge)+humbucker (neck)+piezo bridge- and it worked nicely, no hiss. But indeed i havent done a FULL testing. That mini-humbucker (bridge) could of course not be used when sustainer is on, although i havent figure out a proper wiring yet.
Could you tell me more precisely what you see that wont work please?
Good point again. So far, this guitar is the lightest i have: i always try it standing up with a strap and it s perfectly balanced as of now. Are you saying that you would not recreate some Jaguar/Jazzmaster cavities ideas on a basswood strat body?
I hear you, and this is what i ve been trying to do too; all along the way, guitar nuts' expertise came in very handy. First i went for a sound and steady structure with that new vibrato bridge, nut, tuning machine and fretboard extension. Then i experimented with piezo/sustainer/pickups placements. Now i m searching for a clever way to layout wiring and switches, in a out-of-body fashion, trying to indulge ergonomics and functionality.
And i hear you 4Real, I might wanna try a full test with everything connected the way i d want and see if it works then. I might do this (out of body, no routing) for these experimental shows this weekend.
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Post by newey on Jan 31, 2014 21:48:40 GMT -5
4real makes a good point. Between the sustainer, piezo, etc., there's a lot of investment here trying to get this to come out right.
You could probably pick up a pawnshop Strat as a test mule for $50, and use that for all the routing/fitment issues before you rout the real guitar. Given all you will have spent (and labored) to get this done the way you want it, the added cost is insignificant.
Once it's all laid out and working to your satisfaction, then you can do the same to the real guitar with confidence. The new wiring, pickups, and so forth then just transfers wholesale to the good axe.
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Post by 4real on Jan 31, 2014 23:01:17 GMT -5
There are a number of things of some concern, that's not to say that things are not possible till proven otherwise, however a lot of time hasgone into various sustainer applications and there are limitations. I'd have to know a lot more detail about the testing you have done. The reversing of the sustainer driver to being closer to the bridge and so string end where the harmonics are a lot closer gives concerns and that the sustainer is a lot closer to the pickups is also a radical departure from the design specifications of this sutainer and practcially all sustainers. That driver puts out a lot of electromagnetic energy, pickups are designed to be extremely sensitive to fluctuations in magnetic energy and so there issues are to do with electromagnetic interference. In general, the drivers of sustainers are designed to run as close to the neck and away from the source (bridge pickup) as possible for a number of reasons. The amount of distance from the driver allows more power to be put out (distance from the source is it's ownly protection from EMF), the neck position is generally where the strings swing is greatest and so easier to drive, so not requiring as much energy and so less EMF. It is a tricky balancing act. Because the harmonics are closer towards the bridge, you may find some erratic harmonic effects as well, as I discovered with a few mid-driver designs. As for hollowing out gutiars, my 'phase-o-caster' is a good example of a guitar that experiemented with these ideas (and my first DIY sustainer guitar) ~ guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/799/diy-sustainer-blend-phaso-casterThis guitar was significantly hollow with a large back cavity under the jack plug and hollowign out under most of teh scratch plate as well as the spring cavity and an f-hole right through the guitar. It's block/ply construction is significantly structurally stronger than basswood which is very soft and prone to splitting. The end result was very light but a little neck heavy and it did suffer eventually (though not completely broke (as one of my cheap basswood guitar did with a bath tub route with out modificaton just under sptring pressure). The basswood test guitar that 'broke' when the bridge pulled the wood farward clean out by string pressure. This guitar replaced the previous one as my testing guitar ~ (here set up for the 'goblin' project made for tom morello where I did the electronics and sustainer for (hidden in the neck pickup) ~ You might be interested in my telecaster and other gutiars in the gallery, the tele having a sustainer and controls squeezed into a very small cavity ~ guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5318/blueteleful-kahler-sustainer-teleThat's not to say it wont work, hard to say but there are reasons to believe there will be issues with such a radical departure which has failed so often before exprerimentally. Before doing such things, I tend to test everything by mounting all the electronics on a board and externally as much as practical to ensure everything works as expected and then transplant things into the positions required. Some things though are not practicaly, back or front routing into the top horn say for a piezo pot is perhaps not as ergonomic as you think in practice, but most importantly would weaken it so much as to snap off in use with the entire weight of the guitar hinging from the strap button on it, so lots of reservations there too... Guitar structural strength is very important and here is a lot of hoipes and dreams on this creation (and $) and it would be a shame if things failed and litterally fell apart, or indeed that more concern were to be placed on switches than weather they are capable of the end result desired. Also, sustainac and fernandes both warn against complex witings and indded there are limitations placed on most guitars when including a sustainer. A bypass switch is typically 4pdt, but your fernandes takes care of that, but designed to be completely active, so not sure about how you are designing around that dificulty. It would liely be possible to run teh piezo at the same time, but quite possibly not off the same battery and battery life may well be an issue because of the two systems and the rate of curent draw of any sustainer which tends to eat batteries. Likely there will be power fluctuations that could lead to all kinds of click and pops. Generally sustainhers will only work on very quiet himbucking guitars, if you intend things like HB splits, these kinds of things can cause issues as the power will decrease, the noise increase, and that result amplified heavily through the sustainer, interfering withthe string driving and creating stray EMF. My suggestion would be to install and test out each 'system' (piezo, sustainer, sustainer, mag options individually and ensure everything works in a real world situation before worrying about how to fit it all in the guitar, the ergonomics or aesthetics... Only trying to help, not syaing it isn't possible but there is reason to ahve some healthy skepticisim and test thouroughly before commiting to heavy modification of the instrument ~
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Post by strat80hm on Feb 20, 2014 0:27:50 GMT -5
Thank you again for wise words GuitarNuts. So i went hunting for a test mule: just wanted to share the one i m thinking of using. I m planning on routing beneath the pickguard and fit my system in (piezo bridge, mag pickups, sustainer driver and circuit). - Does anyone recognize any brand? I would not want to damage a collector Here, no brand, no name, and i had never seen that headstock shape. - what wood this is? This body is quite heavy, made of 3 pieces of wood it seems. I m quite ignorant in woods, though this is definitely not basswood.
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Post by newey on Feb 20, 2014 5:19:11 GMT -5
The headstock registers in my brain as a Peavey but I could be wrong.
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Post by ux4484 on Feb 20, 2014 11:34:35 GMT -5
Almost all the peaveys have some kind of undercut along the bottom. I think this is one someone fashioned from some SX or Jay Turser neck, is there a name in the neck pocket?
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Post by sumgai on Feb 20, 2014 15:28:30 GMT -5
This particular shape is available from any number of "blank" neck producers. It's their way of avoiding possible litigation over copyright issues. Which means that the axe could've been a home-brew, or it could've come from a "white-box" builder. The real intent of course is to provide an over-abundance of wood, which would then allow the final end-user/owner to modify the headstock shape to something else, if so desired.
BTW, that grain pattern most certainly could be basswood, but I'd bet more on poplar.
FWIW, actual weight is never a good way to determine a wood species, and when it comes right down to it, neither is the grain pattern. In fact, unless you've taken the top off and looked down inside (possibly having to scrape away some paint), then for all you know, the outer appearance could be a piece of laminate, thick or thin. After all, the LP is good example of a maple cap over a piece of mahogany....
HTH
sumgai
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Post by strat80hm on Feb 21, 2014 1:23:28 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing thoughts. Here are more pics: Indeed it seems like there s no brand whatsoever. Very cheap finish (look at that thick layer!), apparently cheap pickups too. Still unsure about what the wood could be. I think you re right Sumgai, this could be some DIY kit - or at maybe a cheap strat on which the neck has been changed. Anyway, it doesnt seem like i m gonna butcher any fancy axe, and this was the main point. Cool!
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