please verify these HH schematics

[renard]

im trying to get the best of both worlds here. The les paul HH sounds and positions 2 and 4 of a strat. I would like to use a 3 way toggle for the les paul tones and have the pickups wired to 500k pots. Id like to have one 4PDT switch that:

adds the middle pickup to the circuit
redirects the single coils to seperate 250k pots (master tone master volume) for optimal tone and to be able to balance volumes between HH and SSS modes
coil splits the 2 humbuckers

In this schematic the orange pots are 500k and the pink are 250k pots

availible tones would be

hn
hn+hb
hb

mini switch engaged

sn+m
sn+m+sb
sb+m

im new to wiring and am not sure if this is correct

Attachments:

[renard]

This schematic would have 3 master volumes (1 per pickup) and a master tone.

It should work like the above schematic but not redirect the single coils to 250k pots

I will use this scheme IF after testing my pickups with diffent pots, I find a pot value which compliments both single coil and humbuckers

Attachments:

[newey]

Reynard-

Hello and Welcome!

Sorry, I had to move your thread, as it doesn't belong in the "Schematics" sub-board, at least not yet.

I haven't time to check this right at the moment, but I'll do so tomorrow, if no one else beats me to it . . .

[renard]

sorry,
just signed up and wasn't sure where to post or how the forum works. I posted 3 schematics for review (i only see 2 on the thread) thanks for looking at them.

[newey]

reynard-

No worries about the mis-posting. We give newcomers a pass on that sort of thing. And, you get big props for showing up with diagrams, rather than asking someone to do the work for you.

But there are problems with your diagrams, unless I am just mis-reading your intent. First, you seem to be using the triangle symbol to mean "connects to ground", at least for some things (the pots for example). But if that symbol always means "connects to ground", then I can't make heads or tails out of your pickup switching.

For example, you show the green and white wires from each HB as being connected together. Now, I don't know what pickups you're using or the wire colors, but that may be fine. But, then you also show that connection as being permanently grounded (if that's what the triangle means). If that connection is always grounded. your HB is always going to be operating as a SC.

Again, I can't be more specific without knowing the color scheme for the pickups in question, but in general, to do what you want to do, the "series junction" between the 2 coils of each HB gets switched by the mini-toggle to split the coil. In one position of the switch, the two are simple connected together; in the other position, the connection gets grounded.

The other wires from each pickup (shown as red and turquoise) will go to the hot output and to ground, respectively. When I say it goes to the "hot" output, that means directly to its volume pot.

Also, there are several different styles of three-way toggle switches. I'm not sure which one you have, but your diagram of that switch doesn't make sense, so I'm thinking that you haven't quite understood that switch's functioning.

Your second diagram has the same issues. There may be other issues, but I can't tell without a better explanation of your diagramming.

[newey]

Many moons ago, in the early days of this board, a member posted this scheme (with links to his website with the explanations and diagrams)

HSH switched between SS and HH

Now, this is very similar to what you want, in that it's switching between Strat and LP tones using a 4PDT On-On switch. But it's different in that it uses a regular Strat 5-way switch to give all the Strat tones, and then the 4PDT toggle switches it to "LP mode". Positions 2-4 in LP mode are all the same- both HBs together, so there's some redundancy in the switching.

But, although it's a bit different, I thought this diagram might help get you pointed in the right direction.

[renard]

I apologize for the ignorance im really trying to wrap my head around how wiring works

Yes I am familiar with the 5 way schematic but the guitar I have already has a 3 way installed. I believe its a switchcraft. Essentially my guitar is a LP type guitar that I am adding a middle pickup to. I am replacing the stock pickups and routing a cavity for a middle pickup. The pickups I have purchased are Pete Biltoft vintage vibe Charlie Chrisitan pickups that he added a second coil to for noise reduction in the neck and bridge. The middle pickup however is a single coil.  I think I am using his correct colour codes.

My intent was to keep the 3 way switch and operate the guitar in HH mode and run the neck and bridge pickups through 500k pots
When i engage the 4PDT switch my intentions are to have 3 things happen

Bridge and Neck humbuckers split
Middle pickup is added to the circuit
These 3 pickups be routed to 250k master tone and volume pots

I do mean the triangle to mean ground but I am guessing at how the 4pdt works my thinking was the top row plus the middle row act together when the switch is in on direction and the middle and bottom row act together when the switch is in the other position. This is an ON/ON switch

So i thought that the first 2 terminals would ground out one coil to make the humbucker split the 3rd would have the middle pickup on and the 4th route the pickups to the pink 250k pots

in the other position the first 2 terminal would allow the single coils to flow and the 3rd terminal would ground out the middle pickup and the 4th would route the pickups to the orange wired 500k pots.

I guess I missed the mark here.

---

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[renard]

The second schematic was done by DEAF EDDIE but was an edit of a HERMETICO schematic.

He thinks the rerouting of the pickups to individual pots between the HH and SSS mode is a waste of time. He feels 500K pots should be fine and opted for 3 volumes (1 per pickup) to allow for blending and 1 master tone

I can't explain that schematic as I have made no changes to it.

Again the idea here is to split the neck and bridge pickups and add the middle to the circuit. Id like to play the guitar like a les paul and then with a flip of one switch have positions 2 and 4 of a strat depending on where the 3 way was set. the all 3 singles at once would be.... i guess a bonus tone if the 3 way was in the middle position.

I was wondering that if I had each pickup wired to individual volume pots as DEAF EDDIE suggested would I be able to roll the middle pickup off in Single coil mode to essentially gain

neck alone
neck and bridge
bridge alone

 ?

If thats possible I would have every tone Im interested in as I dont think middle alone is very useful

but then again could i not get that tone from rolling off the volume of the neck and bridge pickups in single coil mode??

I know its getting complicated so to summarize

I just care about positions 2 and 4 of a strat and the 3 HH tones of a les paul. Id like to get this with as little alteration to my guitar as possible. For simplicity case just consider my guitar a les paul. Im comfortable adding a mini switch but if i would have to add 2 I mater as well go for individual switches for each pickup and have every combo possible.

I just imagine 3 mini switches plus a 4th mini switch that splits the coils to be very finiky.

[ashcatlt]

Your first diagram is kinda close. I notice that the middle pickup never actually gets connected to the jack, so it's always off. That's not hard to fix.

The pot switching is more difficult, though. Right now both sets of pots are connected across the output at all times. Yes, you're switching the pickup signal from one V wiper to another. You're leaving the other lugs connected, though, leaving that V pot as a passive resistor parallel to the one you actually want to use. No matter which you switch to, it will always sound like less than the smaller. Not what you wanted. Worse yet, the T pots will interact no matter which of them you've chosen on the switch, depending some on the V pot position. Anyway, it needs fixed.

Maybe wait on somebody else's opinion on this, but I think that you can take the "hot output" from the 3-way (or the lug on the 4P switch where it's going to meet the middle) directly to both V pots - basically take the three wires on the far right of the 4P off the switch and solder them together - then you can use that pole to switch the "ground" ends of the V/T pairs and it should be a lot closer to what you intend.

EDIT - no, sorry, that just causes other issues. You need another pole on that toggle!



Then you'll realize that there's no way to get silence from the strings (between songs/sets, etc) without buzzing...

The second scheme appears to do what it does without any trouble. Yes, you could turn the middle all the way down to get "Tele" tones, though that pickup will probably stop contributing anything meaningful to the sound well before its V gets to 0. No, you can't turn down the others to get M alone because turning down either of those Vs to 0 shorts the jack and silences the guitar, which would let you go get a beer or a smoke without leaving the bar to listen to your bzzzzzzz.

[JohnH]

I think there is a way to do this, based on the intent of the first diagram with seperate V and T controls for LP and Strat modes. But there is a tendency to run out of switch poles on the new toggle because to switch the pots properly, two poles are needed, one to switch the pickup side and one for the output side. Otherwise the signal gets loaded by two sets of pots. And two poles are needed to switch both humbuckers to singles. That uses up all of a 4pole toggle. So there can not be a switch pole dedicated to the extra middle pup. No problem though, just hardwire it across the 'strat' volume pot, and it will be in when needed and out when it's not.

Some suggestions: l reckon id do the strat side with a 500k tone pot and 250k vol. May as well get maximum quack potential and you can always set it with tone at about 7 to get 250k. Also, you might consider treble bleed circuits to keep the reduced volume sounds clearer. Best recipe is a 1nF cap and a resistor (150k with 500k pot, 120k with 250k pot) in parallel from hot outer to centre volume pot lugs.
Cheers
John

[newey]

OK, my mistake, I mis-read your diagram at first, thinking the silver wire (which is apparently the bare shield) was a white wire from one coil of the HB.

JohnH's suggestion as to the middle pickup is a good one. Looks like it'll all work out with that change.

[renard]

I woke up this morning feeling really discouraged. I think Im in WAY over my head. I dont know why I didnt just stick with the neck and bridge pickups. I could have just dropped them into my guitar and that would have been that. I got all ambitious and had a middle pickup custom made and I dont no what the heck Im doing. 

Here is how my guitar looks now and how I envisioned it at a time where I was considering individual pickup selectors (right horn) and a toggle which splits the humbuckers and reroutes the pickups to 250K pots (where 3 way switch currently is).

You will also notice that I am going to be replacing the bridge as I was ignorant and didn't know at the time that tune o matics were for guitars with a necks on an angle. The string action has always been a tad high and the tune o matic is as tow as it can go. I dont want to shim the neck and have already purchased the new bridge.

I spent $1000 to build this guitar about 7 years ago as a teenager and ran out of money when it came to the pickups. I just  stuck in cheap epiphone pickups.  

As you can see there is not a lot of room here to work with. I know a 5 way switch would most likely be ideal for HSH but I dont even know where I could fit it and I dont want to have a hole where the 3 way switch currently is. This is also why I went with the separate 500k and 250K pots because I already have 4 pots so I might as well use them.

Maybe I can just have a master tone and a master volume and use the 2 other holes to add switches? That way there are no new holes and I can fit 3 switches (one where the 3 way is, 1 for each pot removed). At this point Im feeling really bummed and am out of ideas. Im hoping these pictures might peak someones interest and perhaps they can offer some suggestions on what can be done with this guitar. I have also thought of using a 5 way rotary switch where the 3 way currently is.

I saw a cool schematic that goes

HB Neck
SC Neck + middle
middle
SC bridge + middle
Bridge

I think if I could start from scratch and have a 5 way I would have gone with this setup as it has really everything I want

I still would consider Individual pickup switches as pictured in my mock up so that I could have all the possible combinations.
I was going to use this schematic but I assume its wrong based on what everyone said about my other schematics.

Attachments:

[renard]

Does anybody have some fresh Ideas on what I should do with this guitar. How I can make it a functional versatile instrument?

[newey]

renard-

Now that I understand your wiring nomenclature, I think diagram " X 14", with the individual "on/off" switches, is OK.

Don't get discouraged, you have any number of possibilities here.

First off, adding a 5-way to a guitar that doesn't have one to begin with is a bit problematic, especially where there's no pickguard. It can be done, but some work is involved. So, let's rule that out and work with what you have.

The real issue is how much switching are you willing to live with to get the tones you want. If you can accept not having things all on one switch, your possibilities open up quite a bit.

Now, switches are fairly cheap, so an investment in the right ones for what you want to do is better than trying to fit the scheme to the switches you have on hand.

For example, if you are going to use separate toggle switches to turn pickups on and off, recognize that, for the HBs, you could use 2 DPDT On-On-On switches to give you On/off/Split Coil. The mid pup then gets a simple On/off switch. This eliminates the need for the 4P switch (if you eliminate the idea of separate 250K vs 500K pots.)

The middle pup could get its own volume, for blending, and a push/pull on that volume pot could be used to turn the mid on/off.

Probably the simplest thing to do, without having to drill more holes in the guitar, is to keep the 3-way switch selecting between the HBs as is usual, and then add the mid pickup on its own volume pot with the P/P to turn it on/off. Another P/P pot on one of the other pots then can be used to split both the HBs to SC. This gives you all the tones you seek, at the expense of having to flip more than one switch to get them.

A rotary switch is also a possibility, but these can be fiddley to work as well.

[renard]

This sounds like a good approach for saving drilling, but in your opinion do you think pulling up on two pots is more or less finicky than switching 3 switches?

For example going from Neck humbucker to sc bridge + middle would require

1. switching the 3 way to bridge
2.pull up pot to add middle
3. pull up pot to split humbuckers

opposed to

1 turn off neck
2. turn on bridge SC
3. turn on middle

I really like how I can have all the tele tones with just pulling up on a push pull as well.  The only combination not possible here is middle alone and I honestly don't think that is a major loss.


Basically Im now wondering if having 3 switches in close proximity would be more convenient and faster than push pulls.  I could place them diagonally above the existing 3 way and I think it would look ok.

Maybe I should start with push pulls to feel it out since it is reversible.

Is there a schematic for

3 way selector
each pickup having its own volume / master tone
split both coils with push pull
add pickup anytime

Or is this something Im going to have to try and piece together from various schematics and youtube tutorials?

Also one last question:

Do you think 500k pots are the way to go? For Charlie Christian pickups Ive heard 250K, 500k and Danny Gatton apparently used 1 meg pots, so I have no idea what route to go. Maybe this is one of those try them all and decide for yourself things?

EDIT:

Just looking over the picture of the guitar I was thinking what if I have a Master Volume/Master Tone and remove 2 pots and insert the 2 mini switches described above... I could even move the tone pot to where the 3 way switch currently is and have all 3 switches close together where the pots currently are and have the master volume there as well. Is this a good idea?

I just found that I never blended my 2 Humbuckers. I always had them cranked and only rolled tone off the neck when playing jazz, so maybe 3 separate volumes would go unused by me and switches may be an easier approach?

[renard]

I think it actually looks dumb now that I see it



So maybe we will go with 3 pickup volumes and a master tone while using push pull pots

Are there any more suggestions for how the pots can be utilized? Perhaps The humbucker can have a volume and tone they share and the middle pickup could have its own volume and tone?

Any other ideas?

[newey]

Perhaps The humbucker can have a volume and tone they share and the middle pickup could have its own volume and tone?

That could be done. As far as three volumes with a master tone, ashcatlt pointed out the interaction of the pots you'll have with that arrangement. You need to decide if you can live with that.

Replacing the 3-way switch in the upper bout with a tone control will probably require drilling the existing hole out a bit to accommodate a pot shaft, meaning it would require some finagling to go back to the toggle there. Not easily reversible, IOW.

As far as pot values, it is largely a matter of personal taste, and also a question of the pickups to be used. I used a 1M tone and a 500K volume pot (so total parallel resistance of 333K)with a GFS dual lipstick tube-style HB and found it to be way too bright, I have to dial the tone down to about 7-8 at all times. But that's a really bright HB to begin with, so another style of HB might give different results.

[renard]

If it were your guitar how would you utilize the pots? I dont want any buzzing or any problems.

In the 2 push pull pot arrangement mentioned above would there be issues? How did you imagine designating the pots for that one?

[JohnH]

Jun 23, 2013 23:04:38 GMT -5 renard said:

If it were your guitar how would you utilize the pots? I dont want any buzzing or any problems.

In the 2 push pull pot arrangement mentioned above would there be issues? How did you imagine designating the pots for that one?

I actually like the scheme you first posted, which can be made to work with a couple of changes described before.

But as to what I'd do, I would base a scheme for the extra M pup on the way i currently have my LP. I use the two standard tone pots to give coil cut in addition to tone control. This is a basic version which would suit in this case:

LP mod

Then, I think Id add the new M pup using an on-off-on toggle, to put it in parallel with either N or B, or off. It gets controlled along with whichever pickup its connected to, and when its off its out of circuit.

This arrangement is simple to wire and gets all the strat and lp combinations, including B and N singles and humbuckers in parallel with M

Cheers
John

[renard]

Some of the details of your mod went over my head but i re read your posts on this thread and understand what u are saying but dont know how to execute it.

I can use 1 4pdt to split and reroute the pickups to separate master volumes and tones

use 1 mini switch to add middle for SC mode

use my 3 way like a les paul and a tele depending where the 4pdt is set

is that right?

if so I like this option best

it seems intuitive to me

can u clarify and confirm this is right?

[JohnH]

Yes you could have exactly that. But you dont necessarily really need the switch for the M pup with the options you first listed. The only time its used is when the strat volume is used, so if could be hard wired.

However if you did have a switch for M, it would give you a 'Tele' mode too. So using your three-position toggle, youd have LP mode, being as normal with humbuckers, Tele mode being the same N , B+N and B with single coils, and strat mode with B+M, B+M+N, N+M. I can do a quick sketch.

J

[renard]

oh that would be really appreciated

[JohnH]

Here is a sketch, based on your first design:



the top switch is the main N/M toggle, the centre one selectsstrat or lp mode. The lower one switches the middle on in strat mode only. You can omit this switch if you dont want N and B single coils . Treble bleed is shown, which is optional. all th eground points are shown except the wire to the bridge and jack, so just connect all th eground to a pot back.

One important thing to figure out is which coils to cut to, so that you get humcancelling when you want it. It should be the ones with opposite polarity, so If you want M and Bsingle to be humcancelling, you need the B coil which is attcrcated face to face with eth middle pickup -etc


I hope that makes sense.  you might prefer to redraw it.

cheers
John

[renard]

wow this is awesome i really appreciate it. Just so im clear if i dont connect that middle mini switch I will get the middle turning on as son as i coil split and it will be in combination with the neck and bridge single coils depending on where the 3 was switch is positioned right?

This is a really cool schematic i think it gets all the important tones and is intuitive. Its like a les paul and a tele in one plus a little strat mojo.

[JohnH]

I think it is a good concept that you came up with.

Yes, if the lower switch is omitted ( ie it's a wire link) you can follow that the M pup is always connected to the strat volume pot, so will be on any time that mode is engaged
J

[renard]

Thats so awesome! When I wire this up in september Ill post a youtube demo and credit you for this cool wiring schematic! Take it easy!

[renard]

Are these correct??

[JohnH]

You did a good job, but I made a mistake. On the 4 pole toggle, the ground that goes to the lower left lug and the one next to it, should instead go to the top left lug and the one next to that. That is so the shunting of the humbuckers to make them single coil happens at the same time that the 250k pot is selected. Also, the cap values are in nanoFarads, nF, ie 1nF and 22 nF. An nF is 1/1000 of a microFarad uF, so they would also be 0.001uF and 0.022uF.

Nice drawings, good luck. Dont forget to think about which coils to cut to for humcancelling - it may lead to swapping the Hb coils in the diagram - see previous.

cheers
John

[renard]

[JohnH]

They look fine!
cheers
J