replace 52mm trem with 54mm?

[renard]

Hi guys,

I got a 90's made in USA peavey predator. It has sentimental value so Im fixing it up. I need a new tremolo as the original is total bunk and the mounting screw actually snapped. So here is the issue. The current string spacing is 52mm I guess 2-1/16 for our imperial readers. I have found a 52mm tremolo

www.ebay.com/itm/350486989913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

but I mean in kinda looks like junk compared to a

WILKINSON WVS 50 II K which is only 20 bucks more

www.ebay.com/itm/281123449364?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

The spacing on this is 54mm. Is the extra 2 mm gonna cause problems as far as the high e being too close to the end of the neck?

The obvious question is "well renard, depends on how thick the neck is" we I can tell you that the nut width is 42mm and the current string spacing is about 36-37mm

I dont mind getting a new nut if its necessary. I dont mind placing the bridge a little to the Low E side to compensate. I am filling in the current holes and drilling new ones to accommodate the bridge I purchase.

So is 54mm ok? Should i just go with the first bridge i posted? Seems like a lot less work, but to me it looks like a knock off of the second bridge and I rather have a good tremolo. Are they both good or possibly both crap and I should go the path of least resistance? 

[cynical1]

If it was me, I'd go with the WVS unit.  What's 20 bucks a few years from now when it still works?

As far a 2mm being a deal breaker...I guess I have t ask, how much room do you have at the heel of the neck now?  You're only talking about 0.07874", or 0.03937" one each side...about the same as a standard A string.  Standard spacing is around 1/8" on each side at the heel, so if there's .125" there now, the new trem will leave a hair under 3/32" left.  Since you don't bend the low E string at the heel, or pull the high E down, you should be fine.

One thing you will notice is the strings crossing the poles.  As long as the string crosses within the circumference of the pole you should be fine.  Exact alignment is not as critical as you'd think.

As far as the nut goes, I doubt you're gonna notice any difference with the 54mm spacing, so if it's still good, leave it alone.

Make sense?

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[renard]

strat peavey.bmp (589.45 KB)

unfortunately the guitar isnt with me its in a different country and I am having my Ma do measurements for me. I can get an exact measurement for the neck at the base sometime this week but judging from this picture can you discern if there is enough room?

Granted the picture is also on a slight angle, but if its more than enough room you can tell I am hoping and if its getting close I may go with the 2-1/16 even though I rather not.

I tried a little copy and paste in MS PAINT of the a string and boy it looks tight

[cynical1]

You don't need the width at the heel. You need the outside dimension from the string to the edge of the neck. I've done this a few times and never had a problem.

HTC1

[renard]

based on my pic does it look a little too tight? I dont think Im gonna be able to get Ma to break out a stew mac ruler and take that measurement for me. I was hoping I could subtract the heel width from the 54mm string spacing to get an answer of amount of room i have between the edge and where the strings would be. Oh also the guitar isnt even strung up so its not going to be possible.

[b4nj0]

Well, anything is better than Leo's 57mm. I have Warmoth neck on a one piece Schecter Koa "Strat" body. This is the one with the Mike Richardson wiring (thanks again Mike) It used to have a '70s made Roger Giffin neck that was about 3/32" too narrow at the high E side at the neck pocket (thanks Roger!) and a '70s Fender pot metal vibrato at 2.4375" string spacing , the same as my '73 Stratocaster, The memories of balancing the strings on the edge of the neck linger... Along with the Warmoth, I put a Wilkinson two point VG300 on and due to those same bad memories, I positioned it slightly off centre. Thus has not really worked because it has brought the whole low E closer to the bass side and now that one drops off from time to time yet the high E still drops off too. The Wilkinson has a 2.0625" spacing. As has been indirectly indicated, you only get around 1/2 of the reduction at the top of the neck, and only half that again on each side. I reckon that despite what I have written, anything you can save on width is worth the effort, but at least as important is to review your technique and adopt a more gentle approach / attack. It would be all well and good if I took my own advice here!

[Deleted]

Hi renard,
soon i hope i will be in your shoes, since from 52.5mm (2 1/16 inches) i am moving to a super-vee bladerunner which has E-E : 2.1 inches (~ 53.4 mm). Since pull-offs on high E has been a nightmare for me in at least 2 of my axes, i am very sensitive to those. I will revert with reviews on how it went. Generally, if your neck is generous in space there is nothing to worry about, narrower nut + wider neck makes life easier on this. I'll tell you how it went. It's just 1mm after all. If the bladerunner proves to be very good you might be tempted to try this instead of the wilkinson. Also Gotoh has a fine line of tremolos, but most of them is 56mm spaced USA standard.

[renard]

thanks for the input guys. I did post a picture of my guitar in an above post but here it is again.

I dont think there is a heck of a lot of room to spare. I want a trem for under $80 as it is not a very valuable guitar. I was sort of set on a 2 point trem, but if I open up to a wilkinson 5+1 and other 6 screw designs I have more options. What if I went the other direction like really cheap and buy a squire trem for 15$ and buy a 25$ trem block? Any opinions on the trem posted in my above link? I like that it has 2 points and a pop in arm. Anyone have any suggestions on a mid level trem?

[4real]

On my Squier I used the trem that came with the guitar. It is a two point system with solid saddles, feels nice and works really well. I even have mine in a full floating 'Jeff Beck' style...
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/5413/mahogany-hss-contemporary-strat



I've used 'string saver' saddles and they were an improvement if you have a cheaper trem, just make sure you get the right version for your string spread and trem to fit.

The really important part of trems is actually the other end. Locking tuners, string rollers and a good slippery or roller nut is the key there...



Set up and balance and such is far more a key to these things than some mojo infused 'product', the main thing in my opinion is that it works well, stays in tune and sounds good. You can get all that from the standard systems and certainly a two point system is an 'improvement' in my opinion, over the 1950's original design, but even they can be made to work well.

What you need to watch for a consider with a lot of these after market trems and such is that guitars like Squiers have a smaller string spread and thinner body so generally require a shorter block and you can find yourself in a whole heap of troubles trying to drop one into another.

You need to carefully check out the difference in the string spread, it can work but heavily guitar dependent, how the fret ends are rounded and how you play even. Remember to measure from the outside of the strings diameter, not the centres as the specs imply, the low E adds more to the width. Many guitars can take a slightly wider bridge but not all. If the standard bridge you have is ok, there are ways one might be able to make it work better, depends on your ambitions for it, but by far the bigger problems tend to be on the other end of the guitar, not the bridge end in all cases!

[renard]

All valid and appreciated points.

Main issues with current tremolo

The screw for the post snapped!

Very small cheap sustain block and since peavey are oddballs I dont think I can just drop in another one

I would like a pop in arm

So basically just go for a no name with these features? Guitar Fetish and a few ebay sellers have "Wilkinson Style" 2 point trems. I guess look for one with a decent block?

[renard]

I FOUND IT!


www.axesrus.co.uk/Wilkinson-VS50MkII-Tremolo-p/vs50mkii.htm?1=1&CartID=1


I found the WVS with 52mm spacing. I searched for this model on ebay and couldnt find it. Wilkinson seems like a really wacky company. They have different model names based on different distributors.  Its like looking for a needle in a haystack at times. Some trems that claim to be wilkinson are not stamped with the wilkinson logo. Some are distributed through all parts.

So any opinions on this tremolo. The block is 11mm and that seems a little thin to me although it claims to be solid steel. Looks like all the really good blocks are usually about 2cm thick

edit found in ebay had to search many ads to find 52.5mm spacing

www.ebay.com/itm/261022026749?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

So is this a better system than the 5+1 wilkinson bridge?  The dinky tremblock is a turn off but the rest of the unit looks boss!

[4real]

Jul 2, 2013 20:32:20 GMT -5 renard said:

I FOUND IT!


www.axesrus.co.uk/Wilkinson-VS50MkII-Tremolo-p/vs50mkii.htm?1=1&CartID=1


I found the WVS with 52mm spacing. I searched for this model on ebay and couldnt find it. Wilkinson seems like a really wacky company. They have different model names based on different distributors.  Its like looking for a needle in a haystack at times. Some trems that claim to be wilkinson are not stamped with the wilkinson logo. Some are distributed through all parts.

So any opinions on this tremolo. The block is 11mm and that seems a little thin to me although it claims to be solid steel. Looks like all the really good blocks are usually about 2cm thick

edit found in ebay had to search many ads to find 52.5mm spacing

www.ebay.com/itm/261022026749?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

So is this a better system than the 5+1 wilkinson bridge?  The dinky tremblock is a turn off but the rest of the unit looks boss!

If you like a modern design at a modest cost with a push in arm, these are a nice design and should fit. The block is speced as 'solid' that does not mean steel. 11mm is about half an inch, how big would you want, that's normal. Dont know any blocks 2cm thick, that's almost an inch! You want something that will fit in the guitar after all. And it is 40mm deep, so chack the depth but should be ok.

The tricky thing with these is adjusting intonation, you can't just screw them like a standard against screws but have to loosen the saddle screws and push the saddles about and retighten and adjust height again so can be a bit tricky...my Khalers have a similar adjustment and can take a while to get just right.

The design is also abole to accomodate a range of stud screw placements, the top one held in place but the lower knife edge able to withstand a bit of variance which is good.

If you like the 5+1 hich has a more smooth wrap around feel, but not the two point pivots, well that looks fine too..i only know it from this review...check the specs as to if they will fit on your gutiar, otherwise similar features.

www.harmonycentral.com/t5/Electric-Guitars/Wilkinson-5-1-Contemporary-Strat-Tremolo-Porn-warning/td-p/32224551

A bit is up to the player and the kind of trem action and range you are seeking, personally I quite like the two point systems if they are good ones and allow for floating and less screws and friction issues. To get this kind of range, a small shim of the neck will raise the bidge higher on the studs and the springs pull it back allowing 'up bends' though, it is more for me, the bigsby like floating around the neck than the range of such a set up.

It depends a lot of the player and the kind of guitar and style you want from the systems..as well as the 'look' and feel under the hands. There are an infinite way of setting trems up and this can be an important part of the whole process. Many heavy handed or damping plyers for instance will have things set for trem down only (such as EVH) to avoid warble and detuning from pressign down on the bridge, players like Jeff Beck will have a system like mine with extreme hight, but one has to be careful that you don't lean on it and pull things out of tune. Bent nores on either system can be an issue as they pull on the strings and will pull the other strings flat...in my strat I added a trem setter, but it is not really necessary (my other guitars don't) but you need to compensate for things there.

You might like a down only thing like EVH, and a little extra spring pressure, though making it stiff, will hold th e bridge to the body and so transfer vibration, avod detuning and even allow things like drop D tuning say, without detuning the rest of the guitar.

All these things need to be thought of. And of course, it is the other end of the guitar that makes a very big differnce to things. I highly recomend locking tuners, perhaps at another time...

Wilkinson is the name of teh Designer, more than a 'brand' btw ;-)

Attachments:

[renard]

I have locking tuners installed and bought some graph tech string trees. The nut is bone and I way switch to a graph tech pre cut nut if the guitar has issues. I think my tech did a pretty good job with the cutting but ill have to see how it all works. I prefer the tremolo flat on the deck as you mentioned since i rest my hand on the trem a lot and have found it hard get the up bend intonated just right (minor 3rd when pulling up)

I thought that these saddles had a screw and once adjusted you just lock it down.

www.ebay.com/itm/350486989913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

there is also this wilkinson designed trem with the correct string spacing and screw saddles.

Im debating between the 2 now.

I found that guitar fetish also has this design listed as a D 19

cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380141292602&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

with a "cast alloy" full sized block. NOt sure what that means.

I guess you need to lower the tension off the strings guess at intonation and then tune to pitch to test, and keep doing this till you are intonated. Seems a little tedious but the saddles have a cool look and I heard these type sustain better (who knows).

[4real]

Jul 2, 2013 19:33:06 GMT -5 renard said:

thanks for the input guys. I did post a picture of my guitar in an above post but here it is again. View Attachment

I dont think there is a heck of a lot of room to spare. I want a trem for under $80 as it is not a very valuable guitar. I was sort of set on a 2 point trem, but if I open up to a wilkinson 5+1 and other 6 screw designs I have more options. What if I went the other direction like really cheap and buy a squire trem for 15$ and buy a 25$ trem block? Any opinions on the trem posted in my above link? I like that it has 2 points and a pop in arm. Anyone have any suggestions on a mid level trem?

By the look of this pic, both of these trems will require some modification to the pickguard...

[renard]

Ya Im thinking of making one out of wood and having my GF extend her paint job on to the new guard. Mods are not an issue with this monstrosity. I just want to get it playing as well as possible since it has sentimental value. Ill end up with a whole new thread no doubt on what pickups I should purchase. Most like SSS which is another reason I will require a new pickguard. These are just cheapo epiphone pickups at the moment.

[4real]

Oh ok...well some of these types may have screw adjustment and I like the look for somethjing different. Either is ok. I'd go for tthe block that is most going to fit, both width and depth into the body myself. Don't get too sucked in by all the 'mojo' floating about around the 'block' and all that, got the one that best suits what you want and how it can be set up and feels comfortable to you.

The nut on my strat is also the original as it is well cut, it is perhaps graphite but supect it might just be a very good plastic one. If you have a bone nut, you can add lubricant to it to improve things if it work and is good for you. Making a new nut can be tricky and a lot of work so if you ahve a good bone one, cool.

Look into the block depth and thickness and the bass plate as compared to your guitar t see what fits best and choose a style that appeals to you. I personally quite like the 'satin crome' saddles on my strat, a bit less 'sticky' under the hand for me, but get to suit.

We are after all on the budget end of things and 'improvements' in 'tone' and 'sustain' and all that, well, there is a lot of mojo and the 'im[provements' are in part subjective and in other areas, improvements of very small increments.

You may find it tricky to get the two point systems flat to the board, you can add something under the plate like EVH does to have it bottom out, but I dare say there will be a way, study the system you by to get the best adjustment for you...

[Deleted]

Renard, from the pic you posted, it seems there isn't a lot of room there, you gotta stay 52.5 mm max.

Renard, Have you looked at Guitar Fetish narrow MEX/import 52.5mm 6-screw, steel/brass block complete tremolo assemblies?

Better don't opt for just the block, but better for the whole set, as it will surely fit together.

www.guitarfetish.com/105mm-Chrome-Spaced-Import-Made-in-Mexico-BRASS-BLOCK_p_1158.html

I d'say, if you currently have 6-screws, stay with them, no reason to introduce potential new points of failure, if not needed.

You could also try the genuine big block mexican trem by axesrus : www.axesrus.co.uk/Fender-Standard-Vintage-Tremolo-in-Chrome-p/007-101-4000.htm
or their own offering : www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-52mm-Spaced-Tremolo-Steel-Block-p/bs050comp-sb.htm

i have tried saddles from them, and they sounded superb, tone improved in my Aria strat.

[renard]

greek dude,

thanks both of those are gorgeous! My current trem was actually 2 screws (not 6 or posts) and one screw snapped and is still in the guitar, so I will need to go with a whole new set up with new holes.

I was kinda set on a snap in arm as i find it tedious to unscrew the arm when i am done playing and what usually happens is i dont bother putting the arm in when i play. Also I dont like how the screw in arm dangles around. Id like it more like a bigsby where i can move it out of the way and then move it into positon and it will stick there.

These are however really gorgeous blocks. Any other suggestions on other trems now knowing a little more about my situation? Is a 6 screw trem easier to instal than 2 posts? Do you know of any 50mm trems to give me even more space on the neck? those 2 links were really really helpful

[Deleted]

Jul 2, 2013 23:49:09 GMT -5 renard said:

My current trem was actually 2 screws (not 6 or posts) and one screw snapped and is still in the guitar, so I will need to go with a whole new set up with new holes.

Sorry i missed that. So now it seems that you have to remove the broken screw first right? You may try a proper screw remover for the given screw. How wide is the screw? I think you have to remove the screw first, and then keep on the 2-point design, scrap what i said, now IMHO this is the preferred way.

Jul 2, 2013 23:49:09 GMT -5 renard said:

I was kinda set on a snap in arm as i find it tedious to unscrew the arm when i am done playing and what usually happens is i dont bother putting the arm in when i play. Also I dont like how the screw in arm dangles around. Id like it more like a bigsby where i can move it out of the way and then move it into positon and it will stick there.

These are however really gorgeous blocks. Any other suggestions on other trems now knowing a little more about my situation? Is a 6 screw trem easier to instal than 2 posts? Do you know of any 50mm trems to give me even more space on the neck? those 2 links were really really helpful

I'll keep an eye, so we are looking for :
- 52.5 mm max
- snap in arm
- 2-point (what's the current stud-center to stud-center spacing? )
- big sustain block, preferably steel or brass

right?

[Deleted]

BTW, by looking back at your first link : www.ebay.com/itm/350486989913?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

i can't find any problems with it. And the big block, even zinc alloy will do its work. Can you pls explain, in case i missed smth. What bothers you with it?


how about this one : www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-Modern-Tremolo-525mm-String-Spacing-p/bs213.htm

[renard]

Well i think the screws are a forget about it, cause im going to just drill a hole and stick a dowel in and start fresh. Thats kinda work doesnt intimidate me so much. The screw is buried in there deep so im just going to drill it out of existence. Id love feed back on brass vs steel, and really anything in general. I am kinda set on snap in arm just from all my whammy experience. Ive owned strats all through my life yet never have used the whammy and its something i really do want to incorperate in to my playing so it would be nice for it to always be there. I used the whammy a lot more on my gretch cause it was always there.

Maybe just an overall opinion on what would you do? 2 point trem or 6. Brass or steel. If you were starting from scratch knowing what you know. The real only thing for me is its got to have that snap in arm that stiffly stays in place and can be moved. No teflon on the threads trick been there tried that lol.

[renard]

I really like that one from the UK.

I think the main purpose at this point in the thread is to ask since im spending 60-80 bucks whats the best bang for my buck. Most sturdy well made with the best materials.

[Deleted]

As far as 2-points are concerned, i have Floyd Rose in two of my axes (one Kramer 210 '90, and one Carvin DC135 '88). They work, as you would suspect great. But they require serious routing. Not sure you wanna go that way on your sentimental precious peavy axe. In the same regard, i'd say keep it stock, don't drill the 6-screws, stay with the 2-point pivot. Now about blocks, etc.... Its a hit and miss situation. Just find a combination that feels right and forget about it!

[renard]

So here is what im take away from your experience an our convo

we will stick to 2 point trem

blocks are a bit of a mojo sales pitch so we wont factor that in too heavily

although the wilkinson saddles look cool they arent really as functional as screw saddles so

since you can vouche for Axesrus and to be frank i am more comfortable buying a product from the UK than hong kong

im going to go with

www.axesrus.co.uk/Axesrus-Modern-Tremolo-525mm-String-Spacing-p/bs213.htm

I really do appreciate all the input as Im really indecisive and it seems the more options the less confident i become in making a decision.

*routing for a floyd is def out of my abilities as a wood worker.

Thanks again I really appreciate all the help

[renard]

Purchased! Dont want to hear anything about tremolos for a while or how there is a this other tremolo with way more mojo thats way better for less money that would send me into a mental breakdown lol! Cheers

[Deleted]

Jul 3, 2013 1:37:06 GMT -5 renard said:

Purchased! Dont want to hear anything about tremolos for a while or how there is a this other tremolo with way more mojo thats way better for less money that would send me into a mental breakdown lol! Cheers

This one is all steel, no major "mojo" concerns here! We look forward for a review!

BTW where are you from and/or located?

[renard]

i am a Canadian (Toronto) teaching in South Korea for a year. I go home in September and to pass the time been contemplating how I will improve my guitars when I get home. It gets me through my days! I plan on doing videos on all my mods. Im really excited about the CC riders I bought from Pete Biltoft at vintage vibe for my other guitar because there isnt a lot of info on those pickups. One of the members here JohnH helped me with a really great wiring mod for the. This has been the best forum Ive ever been on. Really helpful and no condescending attitude. I hope to be able to give back with some videos!