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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 11:48:37 GMT -5
Well, after many adventures i start to believe so. The void spaces among frets act like speakers. The neck vibrates a lot more than in the solid case. IMHO the more solid a guitar is, the *less* resonance it has, the more the sustain will be. This particular partscaster of mine, unplugged sounds very loud. The neck is definitely louder than its non-scalloped counterparts.
So, i think i should live with this guitar, quiting the sustain pursuit. It just never gonna happen. I should go and try the fender scalloped guitars priced for 1500 USD+ and draw some conclusions from that.
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Post by strat80hm on Aug 9, 2013 16:08:47 GMT -5
So you re saying the less wood the more volume? And the less wood the less sustain?
I noticed a fair change of tone when swapping necks on strats. I believe necks and bridges are the main tone changers. Scalloping might be a factor too then.
I m planning on doing some on my dream guitar in progress, will see what happens.
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Post by 4real on Aug 9, 2013 17:27:40 GMT -5
Well, after many adventures i start to believe so. The void spaces among frets act like speakers. The neck vibrates a lot more than in the solid case. IMHO the more solid a guitar is, the *less* resonance it has, the more the sustain will be. This particular partscaster of mine, unplugged sounds very loud. The neck is definitely louder than its non-scalloped counterparts. So, i think i should live with this guitar, quiting the sustain pursuit. It just never gonna happen. I should go and try the fender scalloped guitars priced for 1500 USD+ and draw some conclusions from that. I don't mean to offend, but you seem to not have a good grasp of the physics and mechanics in all this...as it happens I came accross this by chance, though there is still a bit of 'guitar lore' thrown inthere that can be misleading...but it would be more useful to take things back to basic principles which some posts do tend to do... music.stackexchange.com/questions/6103/what-factors-affect-a-guitars-ability-to-sustain-a-noteThe above for instance, but one might get even more out of exploring the mechanics of such things out side of the 'guitar world' and putting all that to one side... Once a string is struck, the 'law of thermodynamics' takes over and the potential energy once made kenetic with the string in motion is going to be a matter of losses related to the system. By taking an already thin flexible structure like a guitar neck, then removing big chuncks of it by scalloping, you are making this structure have qualities that are even more going to provide dampening factors that reduces sustain. However, that is not to say that that 'shape' cant be made to work equally well. It just needs to have more 'stiffness' to it to make up or even improve on that... So, an obvious strategy would be to insert carbon fibre reinfocement in the neck so that it has the strength and rigidity to make up for the flexibility that the loss of material and particularly the fretboard has in that process...normally something that woulkd be done in the making of the neck...by modifying something that was never intended to be that way, you can only 'reduce' these factors of rigidity... However it is also worth noting that some 'dampening factos' and biased response of pickups and such are usually desirable to the 'tone' of an instrument...and as mentioned before, you can't nor should separate 'sustain' from these other factors which are also desirable but may be somewhat mutually exclusive...it's all about finding a balance, as with most things... A guitar like a steinberger carbonf fibre neck and body with wide range low impedance EMG pups, may would say sounds and 'feels' sterile...but you certainly get 'sustain out of such a structure. Not all resonances are detrimental to sustain either... But the analogy of the scolloping being 'like speakers' is a bit of a stretch. You hear sound because the molicules in the air are moved, a speaker provides a surface area to move more molicules than a string'...same way an acoustic's soundboard. Quite possibley you ahve just weakened the structure sothat it can movemoreand so move more 'air' so it sounds 'louder' to you...but that has little to do with sustain. Perhaps it is burning upthe 'potential energy' faster and so while 'louder acoustically' is lower on sustain... But even acoustic guitars, if built ridgidly and well, can produce phemominal sustain at times...check out the sustain on AR's standard maton on these melody notes...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 23:45:34 GMT -5
4real if you want a nice convo, pls NEVER EVER make any more assumptions about what i have grasp on and what not. I had more than good intentions to learn (btw i am comp. scientist who graduated 8.5/10 out of one of the hardest depts). Every time you seem to start like this, but you never deliver in the end.
pls solve this if you want a decent convo. This is very irritating, embarrassing, especially when the signal/insult(=noise) ratio is not so high.
Thanx in advance.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2013 23:50:33 GMT -5
So you re saying the less wood the more volume? And the less wood the less sustain? I noticed a fair change of tone when swapping necks on strats. I believe necks and bridges are the main tone changers. Scalloping might be a factor too then. I m planning on doing some on my dream guitar in progress, will see what happens. I say that energy is lost on the neck, for some reason. Less wood in general might not be the culprit, but creating little speakers between the frets does. Btw this neck is one of the stiffest i got. I can go from 9's to 11's with minimal truss rod adjustment. About what you say about necks i agree more and more. About bridges, i start to believe not so. Its a fine tuning situation. The bridge might have some role in the final fine-tuning process but in the beginning, surely the neck is the big factor. What i know is that stiffness-robustness, solid structure and weight will give lots of sustain. That's why i gotta do precise measurements with my strat VS a fender malmsteen strat and will post here the results.
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Post by 4real on Aug 10, 2013 1:28:44 GMT -5
4real if you want a nice convo, pls NEVER EVER make any more assumptions about what i have grasp on and what not. I had more than good intentions to learn (btw i am comp. scientist who graduated 8.5/10 out of one of the hardest depts). Every time you seem to start like this, but you never deliver in the end. pls solve this if you want a decent convo. This is very irritating, embarrassing, especially when the signal/insult(=noise) ratio is not so high. Thanx in advance. Ok...explain the principle that 'scollping acts like a speaker' to me because I fail to see the principle. Obviously, I would have thought, that if you take away from the neck, particularly in the crucial upper surface, you are taking away from the vital 'stiffining part of the neck', it's not likely to assist in sustain...unless you are privy to something that I don't see in teh basic principles that Is all. This is a public forua and you don't ahve the priveledge to demand from me or SHOUT as if that makes your theories any more stable. I was legitimately suggesting going to basic principles would be more of assistance to a discussion than 'my neck vs my othe neck therefore' kind of arguments...what are the principles?
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Post by sumgai on Aug 10, 2013 1:35:34 GMT -5
OK, I need to step in here. Pete, some of that was a bit over the top. 'dude is correct, you made an assumption. Whether or not it was correct, it was expressed in a what I view as a non-neutral manner, and that's just not kosher. You know how to take care of that little concern, right? 'dude, you reacted with less fervor than usual, and that was good. But seriously, even if you have a degree in Computer Science, that's no substitute for a sound basis in Physics, and here I'd have to give the nod to 4real. I can't agree with everything he's said, but as a layman, he's not very far off the mark at all. Now, the both of you: Stand back, take a deep breath, and ask yourselves this question... no, these two questions: A) why is sumgai chastising me in public, instead of private like he usually does; and B) What benefit do I derive from coming out with all guns blasting? In the latter case, greekdude was, and is still to this point, keeping himself in check. Kudos for that. He's right, Pete - you rarely "call out" others who express a desire to know more details when they espouse an alleged "fact" that they want double-checked. With the exception of that asshelmet that's dogged you for years over the sustainer project, you've never had a real reason to "go off" on anyone before.... what's so special about greekdude's way expressing of a question that sets you off? Now, if I've still got your attention, let me boil this down to the quick and dirty here: you each have the same problem all the rest of the planet's population has - ego. Somehow your egos don't "mesh" with each other quite as nicely as each of you does with others here (and presumably elsewhere). I suggest, quite resolutely, that you two work on that. In my estimation, there is no "right" or "wrong", there are only shades of gray inbetween those two extremes. Finding the most equitable shade of gray is your job, both of you. How you do it is up to you, but I speak for the rest of the NutzHouse when I say "stop it". Nobody else is jumping down anyone else's throat for expressing an opinion or asking a question - why do you two insist on going at it Hammer and Tong? And if my asking politely isn't enough, then you're really not gonna like newey's response to this fracas - if he has to come out of his "man cave" and start growling, even I don't wanna be in the vicinity! 'Nuff said, and thank you. sumgai
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Post by 4real on Aug 10, 2013 2:51:41 GMT -5
I appologise to all and sundry...however... "I don't mean to offend, but you seem to not have a good grasp of the physics and mechanics in all this...as it happens I came accross this by chance, though there is still a bit of 'guitar lore' thrown inthere that can be misleading...but it would be more useful to take things back to basic principles which some posts do tend to do... music.stackexchange.com/questions/6103/what-factors-affect-a-guitars-ability-to-sustain-a-note"I don't mean to offend" this preface was to avoid the usual 'blast' from anything I might offer and it is in well meaning... "but you seem to not have a good grasp of the physics and mechanics in all this" This is not an 'assumption but an observation, the word 'seem' leaves wide open that I may well be wrong. I myself studied usic, but did get 99% on my 'physics of music' year and ahve studied quite a bit on basic principles of suchthing in the past and have had my own observations that go beyound a 'few' guitars... But, asi it happens, I did come across this tread as there is a new sustainer that I ahve forgoten the name of and was trying to find it recently to help others as a reference...as the questionsthat were asked in this thread directly relate to those GD repetively asks this community, of which I am a part of, I thought he would be interested. The large quote were not my words but those of someone that I thought were pertinent from that thread that he may wish to follow up on. I don't regard it 'a blast' to put such terms and no, normally one would not have to appologise for potential offence in teh first words of a post. I am not 'picking on' anyone and the only reason that this is seen as poor harmony is because someone took offence it seems, not from what I said or posted. In the rest of the thread, what is offensive about that, in teh begining, where is the offence or off topic contribution? At any time should he wish to, GD could ahve but never has attempted to PM me or communicate civilly and it is I that should be offended by this kind of thing. I even gave a break to the forum because I was hounded out and made unwelcome by this particular member. As to the other guy, well there are no shortages of such people out there, what is the relevance of such an observation? I returned with my own project and have lent help which I gather has been appreciated...I too am offering it here, but it does seem that becase one guy has a problem with me and takes offense, I am too strong? Where else are there all kinds of theoriesand repeated posts without substaniation...If there were and I were active on the forum, sure I would ask for clarification or questionthe validity or ask an explanation. I am sorry, but there was no 'assumption' but the seeking of an explanation of the principles behind these assertions and the provision of further relevant information. For those that have no looked at that link...the OP asked this in teh first post.... This question is exactly that asked over and over and explored well by a number of well informed people, I fail to see why linking this information and tentatively with a plea not to 'over-react' as has been done is some how...what...a 'balst' or abusive or could be interpreted as anything but well meaning.... So no, I do not know what the proposal is...that if a member not have a question to put to the open forum, for which I am a part, they should restrict such transmissions to PM's? Or, is it that one memeber can be abusive to me because I should NEVER reply to anything the person types, so a restriction on me regardless how ludicrous and the disrepute to the forum or offence tome or common sense and interlectual persuit, because he says so in capitals? Nope, I am not following at all. ... SO sure, pt forward the proposal here or privately and spell out exactly where I ahve made 'assumptions' bearing in the mind the word 'seem' and that I had to anticipate the potential that the person would be 'offended' by anything, even things of direct relevance by others, is so off putting. Give me examples of the places where I ahve failed to mention similar corrections or material to explain or discuss things on this forum. If anything, people accuse me of giving way too much...sheeesh
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Post by ux4484 on Aug 10, 2013 4:27:15 GMT -5
Unrelated... But pertinent:
In meatspace, I'm considered a smart guy. I'm that person people call when something's broke, because they know (more than likely) I can fix it. That said: I often feel like a moron here. i ended up here to gather some info I was too lazy to experiment with myself (JohnA's original site). I'm a tech, not an engineer (this place was/is LOADED with them). The thing that attracted me here was unlike most engineers I've worked with in meatspace, the ones here aren't dicks. They are guys you'd like to hang with. Don't know physics? ChrisK or JohnH will give you a push the the right direction. Working on a tube amp? The Gai or Unc could recall the info without breaking a sweat... and all of them did/do it as a mentor, not like a professor or boss. Being largely older technical guys, we're all opinionated... so this stuff is bound to happen... But thankfully not here as much as elsewhere on the Internet. I have so much work to do in life, I don't really want to take more education on than requires me to do the job (why I came here in the first place). I just want to play, and have my guitars sound the way I want.
I'm going to put some coffee on now... You kids play nice and let me know when you're done with your hard work.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 10, 2013 8:20:45 GMT -5
I've never understood why a neck might want to be scalloped. If the object is to be able to fret notes without reaching the board then doesn't using a jumbo fret wire do the same? If you reduce overall depth by say 15% by scalloping, neck stiffness is reduced by around 40% in theory.
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Post by lpf3 on Aug 10, 2013 8:52:25 GMT -5
4Real wrote:
Either way, what affects sustain is:
The rate at which the sound-producing component takes energy away from the string. What other components take energy away from the string.
I think this states it perfectly & I absolutely agree. I would think that removing mass by scalloping would increase resonance thereby improving sustain (and tone). But in this case I think JohnH's observation might be more important- that the stiffness would be significantly reduced by removing that much wood. That might have the opposite effect, the action would feel "squishy" (?) and the reduced stiffness might reduce sustain.
I think tying an Yngvie Strat is probably your best bet so you can decide for yourself . All this does beg the question though, why would someone who plays as fast as Yngvie care how long a note rings?
-lpf3
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Post by lpf3 on Aug 10, 2013 8:54:18 GMT -5
Unrelated... But pertinent: In meatspace, I'm considered a smart guy. I can't believe I actually Googled "meatspace" .......
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Post by ux4484 on Aug 10, 2013 9:48:47 GMT -5
I've never understood why a neck might want to be scalloped. I sense a new Disney/Pixar juggernaut coming on here... First, there was CARS, then PLANES, and now... GUITARS! Little Stevie Ray Strat was just a guitar plugging away every night at the "Venture Inn" surf bar... but he wanted to be more... He wanted to be... scalloped!!!
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Post by sumgai on Aug 10, 2013 11:36:18 GMT -5
As the topic seems to remain "on target" here, I'll not dwell on my particular sensitivity as posted above. Suffice it to say, Pete, that your response shows that you are "working on it" as I requested. But bear in mind, your first defense was the word "seems". I can tell you honestly that your definition and mine are not on the same page. Particularly in the tone of the delivery, "seems" leaves only a very small room for "chance of error", not a wide latitude. Perhaps that's a cultural thing between our respective societal upbringings, but it does bear cogitation, even for a word so seemingly innocuous. Now imagine how the word translates for a person who speaks English as a second language..... I can't begin to imagine how that might work out, cultural differences and all, even though I used to speak German as well as any native. The room for inaccurate translations is just to vast to consider as a finite element, and since we Nutz are not all native English speakers, perhaps it would bear positive results (ie less friction) if we all kept that in mind. ps. One can "assume" from the typos in your missives that you are indeed trying to pour out your thoughts as quickly as they come to you. Might I suggest that when you're done, you go back and re-read everything you just said with an eye for correcting spelling errors... In this way you might reconsider your thoughts and how you strung them together, which may go some ways towards how others perceive your intentions, and hopefully in an even more positive light than sometimes happens now. 'Nuff said on that topic....
I too am not a Physicist, but in the US, most if not all schools of higher learning require at least two quarters of Physics classes for any Engineering degree.* No problem for me, I like that kind of stuff. However, regardless of what any of us have discussed so far, the one single overarching factor that's gone unmentioned is this: The guitar is a veritable cornucopia of resonances, and in order for any one thing to be "of prime importance", all of those resonances will have to be adjusted to suit. Let me reiterate the important word there - all of the resonant points. No one single part of the guitar controls the sum total of what we hear, and what we usually describe as The Mojo ®, it's an amalgamation or synthesis or distillation of what each and every part contributes, and that's not all..... we then have to consider the joining aspects between each and every part and element. Neck stiffness - hardly worth a look. Neck joint to body - more worthy of consideration. Type of body wood - don't make me laugh, Runewalker has put that one to bed a long time ago. And for Gawd's sake don't get me started on Nitro vs. Poly finishes, that's not gonna fly with me. When today's guitars have been around and aged for some 50 or 60 years, then I'll have something to compare against a 50 year old Strat with an original nitro finish. And yes, age of wood is a high consideration. But let's not go there just now, I have other axes to grind. Magic tuners, magic nut, magic bridge/saddles, all part of the package, but how big a part, that's the question. Quality of hardware manufacturing is much more important than the metal content. A properly rounded corner on a brass saddle will have more impact on tone and sustain than a crude corner on a steel one, take my word for that one. Even there, corner-rounding is an art, and not something the designer just tosses over the fence (the cubicle wall) to the shop workers. It's all of the little things that go into making a guitar sound great or otherwise. Paying attention to what kind of screws are used to secure the neck/body joint is worthy of several man-months of experimentation, but on the other hand, what works for a single-piece maple neck and alder body may be crap for a two-piece neck with an ash body. For one, the tone might The Shiznitz, but on the other, the tone might remind one of a 60's Japanese Tiesco del Rey. The different possible outcomes for just this one factor alone can be mind-boggling when you start getting into the deep end of experimenting. But let's get back to gd's original question, because I think I've made my point now, eh? ....... 'dude, if you're still worried about neck stiffness, then let me say these few words: 1) The amount of wood within any given guitar part is not as important as the quality of the wood itself. First and foremost among all the criteria is that the wood be quarter-sawn and not flat-sawn. Flat-sawn is only OK, it works, but that's all you can say for it. Quarter-sawn wood has a much greater amount of structural integrity that works out (for guitarists) to be stiffer (stronger) and yet more resiliant to vibrational stresses.... ie. it has an internal component of resonance that guitarists have come to expect from their axe, and quite serendipitously it's easy for manufacturers to work with it, and get it to "behave" as a neck should. 2) The presence of a truss rod throws out all considerations about stiffness. Watch videos on how a truss rod (or a carbon/graphite rod) is laid into the neck, and suddenly you'll understand that there's a big cavity under the fretboard, full of air and containing a piece of metal that does not vibrate the same at all as the wood around it. Right there, we've got a whole new field of science we have to consider - resonating metal contained within resonating wood. Questions to ask are "how much contact is being made between the two", "at what points are those contact being made", "what kind of metal is being used (cold-rolled steel vs. left over castings from an auto parts manufacturer or some other poorly made stuff)" and I'm sure others could come to mind if I spent a few more moments on the topic. This is the kind of detail that very rarely gets consideration, even from the boutique makers. Even those who charge upwards of $2500 a pop can't always answer these kinds of question with any real profundity, in one or more places of their guitar(s), they are just using "what the industry says is common good practice", without a real understanding of what they're doing. Fine, I won't fault them, after all they can't be going to school for 10 to 15 years of their lives just to be able to understand what they're doing when they make a great guitar. Nearly all of us on this Earth are willing to just buy the thing and play it - we don't care, do we, if the maker has no deep clue as to what he did... after all, he created Mojo out of thin air, so we're willing to accept it as Manna From Heaven and leave it at that. (That goes for me too, BTW, I can accept it on face value without requiring that everyone in the manufacturing chain (from tree to store shelf) knows exactly what they are doing, and why the are doing it.) Whew. That's a lot of verbiage, at least for me. So let me throw this out there, and then I've gotta go take a chill-pill.... 3) If you really want a stiff neck to start with, it's gotta be a one piece, start to finish. That means no metal rod inside, so we're up against a wall here, aren't we? Plus, it must be absolutely resonance-inert - - absolutely no sympathetic resonance in response to a vibrating string, that's your desired starting point. Want that? You can have it, if you're willing to forego wood. Say what? Not wood? Not my beloved maple? Yeppers. What you want is right here: www.mosesgraphite.comThat's the top page, what you want to drill down to is here: mosesgraphite.com/productpages/ns-27-s-style-guitar/Now their prices are not out-of-line for high-end stuff like this (after all, they are Engineers and Physicists), but some judicious shopping can net you their products for a lot fewer drachmas. Guitar oriented stores carry them now, even Amazon for criminy's sake, but serious buyers will haunt eBay, where the deals can be found - that 400-500 dollar neck? $300, often. Sometimes less. Of course I can't say what shipping will be to Greece from somewhere in the world, but if it's from the US, and the seller wants an arm, a leg, and your first-born son, then let me know and we'll work something out. That's a promise. OK, I'm done, time to go. HTH! sumgai * Remember, if you're hungover the next morning when you wake up in the classroom, and you don't know which class you're in, here's your clue: If it's green, you're in Biology; If it stinks, you're in Chemistry; and If it doesn't work, you're in Physics!
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Post by 4real on Aug 10, 2013 15:45:15 GMT -5
As the topic seems to remain "on target" here, I'll not dwell on my particular sensitivity as posted above. Suffice it to say, Pete, that your response shows that you are "working on it" as I requested. But bear in mind, your first defense was the word "seems". I can tell you honestly that your definition and mine are not on the same page. Particularly in the tone of the delivery, "seems" leaves only a very small room for "chance of error", not a wide latitude. Perhaps that's a cultural thing between our respective societal upbringings, but it does bear cogitation, even for a word so seemingly innocuous. Now imagine how the word translates for a person who speaks English as a second language..... I can't begin to imagine how that might work out, cultural differences and all, even though I used to speak German as well as any native. The room for inaccurate translations is just to vast to consider as a finite element, and since we Nutz are not all native English speakers, perhaps it would bear positive results (ie less friction) if we all kept that in mind. ps. One can "assume" from the typos in your missives that you are indeed trying to pour out your thoughts as quickly as they come to you. Might I suggest that when you're done, you go back and re-read everything you just said with an eye for correcting spelling errors... In this way you might reconsider your thoughts and how you strung them together, which may go some ways towards how others perceive your intentions, and hopefully in an even more positive light than sometimes happens now. 'Nuff said on that topic.... Sorry, but the defense is also in the first words..."I do not want to cause offense"...there is nothing ambiguous in any language or culture to that. "Seems", particularly when prefaced by this sentiment is similarly unambiguous. And yes, perhaps it is ';cultural', who knows...but in rigorous intelectual debate, "seems" can in no way be interpretted as assumptive... It does suggest that there is perhaps some reason to think that, perhaps, but I am not the one putting forward these unsupported hypothesis for dscussion, and the post goes on to invite some explanation as to the principle by which one might have the scalloped neck act "Like a Speaker"... I beleive the thread discussed by others that I linked to covers a lot of areas of direct interest and others seem to grasp the basic principles of the proposition including you. The reality is that, I deserve the same 'cultural sensitivities' that you show to GD, on the assumption that he can not understand englaish and that I should be more 'careful and considerate' of this, while I do not deserve the same...while ChrisK did and others. When others put forward a myriad of posts on teh same subject I expect I should be able tocontribute on an open english speaking forum if I should choose. As for spelling mistakes. Well look, there is no auto correct and I speed type. I typed that response as best I could as fast as one might speak it, it is not wrong and the amount of time that I spend typing between all that I am trying to do and negotiate in real life, is proportinal to how much the topic deserves...even with the obvious typos, it is more inteligible than than the spelling of many...and also remember that the american english is not spelt at all like the rest of the english world either. Throwing 'spelling' in there is so interlectually bankrupt as to not deserve comment, but you chose to for some reason. As the replies suggest, the reply was not at all out of line and I still fail to see how it could be seen as 'abrasive'...particularly since it tried to steer this repeated topic towards basic principles and provide coherent and cogent information that directly relates to this topic and the underlying principles. ... Here's an anacdote on the subject from Les Paul. When he built the 'log' he put strings on a length of railrod rail and noted the enormous sustain...his mother noted that such a heavy 'instrument' would be completely impractical, so he used a big post through the middle of his hollowbody. Because he understodd, as did his mother the basic principles... Here's another 'observation', when one makes 'kerfing' one saws out slots in the wood to provide the flexibility...scolloping would reasonably be anticipated to have a similar effect...but one really does not have to think that deeply. One might assume that a failure to see such basic principles does 'seem' to undermine the understanding of these basic principles, as does the level of discussion and the repeated bring up of the subject while neglecting teh basic principles of how these things work. But, I left that open... Now all this and distress to me, seemingly of far less importance for some reason, and the condescending racial 'oh, he's not english speaking and culturally different' and therfore is less capable of having a reasonable discussion and take offense, even when the first words were asking him not to and think reasonably...well....how do you explain that... But, in any civilised discussion, one would defend one's theories by defending what ever the proposition...not just making yet another 'ad hominin attack' on his chosen 'nemisis'...not mine. I sincerely hope you can see that. Just as in that other guy under many different guises, these things are targeted and repeated and from the very beginning, but as there where I answered such things at 'face value' and as helpful as I can before it got abusive...this is similar. Instead of returning with...even if he took me to be purposely offensive (despite the first words imploring him not to jump directly to that attitude) and plenty of room to reply...he went on to directing me, as if he has such authority, yet again, as to what I can and will say on this forum and bringing down a wall of hate and counter assumptions (real ones like 'he's not english, therefore he does not understand and his culture is different therefore, the normal rules of logic and interlectual discussion do not apply and that, as someone who is english, it is my 'white man's burden' to deal differently to such people and make allowances for his abuse twards me, which was unambiguous and in capital letters). I only mentioned my 'qualifications' as an invitation to defend his own. One might reasonably assume fromhis response that I am 'wrong' in these incorrectly assumed assumptions....if I am wrong, and it does not seem to be the case, the correct harmonious response would be to address the issue, not attack me personally and ahve others jump to his defence which is equally offensive to me...but to answer with the principles and perhaps also provide the references and qualifications for suggesting things like "scolloped frets act as speakers and make for a louder guitar'...it is not mine, but I did provide a reference that is directly relevant to all these threads cluttering up this forum and lowering the standard of informationa nd discussion. ... Now I ask where the offense is, and the assumptions of the moderators and others as to why that is, does not answer from the only person that is able to explain this extrodinary behaviour...the person who took offense, who is curiously abscent and from whom an appology and better behaviour can reasonably be expected towards me. After all, as can be seen here by those that have a grasp of the basic principles, and have not had to warily preface all their posts with, "I don't want to offend, please dont fly off the handle at me and drive me from the forum...but"... Some ahve posed reasonable questions, again, that the OP has failed to answer...why the obsession with sustain, etc? Now, I know some good reasons for such things, I've also sought and achived 'sustain' even infinite sustain after all. There are answers to things like the 'why not just use jumbo frets' too and all this could make for an interesting discussion, with civilised people who didn't attack me personally every fricking time I offer in all good spirit and generosity some relevant information as here. Te answer John is that, when you add jumbo frets, you are adding tothe thickness of the overall neck, to compensate one might 'shave the back of teh neck back, and so overall make for something simialr to the scolloped neck...but people do and my original LP in teh 80's was so equiped from teh 'fretless wonder' it originally was for this very reason. A good meaty fret though, does engender improved sustain and the lack of fretboard under does allow more easily to induce sustain, even infinite sustain, but exciting the string through 'vibrato techniques' without the friction of the fretboard under to produce it. Jimi Hendrix did it by slicing a groove in a fret with a razor, I think the 15th, to produce the sustained note in 'foxy lady'...the groove in teh fret producing a pick like effect as the note was vibrato-ed over it to produce that sound and infinate sustain... But, how can one reasonably expect me to feel welcome to pass on what I know or to learn, when all I generaously offer, spelling mistakes and all, are regualarly met with abuse and the administrators immedicately jumpt to the defense of that party, a party expulsed from his own native speaking forum and the opening to his first post here, possibly on this very subject, and to do so with such a shallow response as 'your spelling' and ''hes from a different language and culture'...excuse me? I am from a different 'culture' one of interlectual rigor and common decency, while some apparently are not...but I and I alone must 'modify' in unspecific ways, to accomodate one person for his 'flying to conclusions' every single time and directing all that energy towards me, even when prefaced by 'please dont take offense or take this thte wrong way, I really don't want another one of these derailments to attack me, but you might be interested in this thread and discussing hthings in basic principles and so, answer your own questions and move on from there'... I fail to see why I warrant this kind of 'treatment' and not the smae consideration...I honestly dont...but as GD is the one who started 'SHOUTING' then I expect him to return with a reasonable and coherant, and appraently perfectly spelt, reply to me to explain himself...not the replies of others that ARE assuming and excusing on his behalf. I do ahve soem knowledge and an interest in this area and I sincerely wished only to 'help' in this and in all posts, I'm no 'troll' but here to actually do projects and share my knowledge and yes, to learn. I will not ahve, yet again, this member hound me away from the forum because of his 'problem' with me and inability to understand the most basic principles of having a conversation about anything. Attacking teh other party and avoiding the question they raised, or the massive assumptions of the administrators runnign to his defence... On that last point...if cultural and language deficiencies are his defence, tht is not for me to know...that my friends is a massive assumption....lets here it from the man himself...I'm sorry 4, but "I don't speaka d english to well"...have you any idea how racist that sounds...but hey, maybe he might try that on...but in no reasonabl, logical or interlectual discussion is an ad hoimin attack permissible as a defense against nonsense popositions not supported by some kind of sensible argument. I take offense, therefore my proposition is correct and you have no right to contribute or say otherwise, is such a nonsenes and to support it, even worse IMHO....
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Post by 4real on Aug 10, 2013 18:53:04 GMT -5
On the issue of the 'truss rod'...it's purpose is to allow adjustment and compensation for the lack of inherinet rigidity in the structure, even in the origianl patent in 1921 for it, the proposition of using cheaper woods for the necks was propsitioned... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truss_rodSo it acts like an adjustable counteracting spring against the string tension because the neck is not ridgid enough under high tension to counteract it...it has not the rigidity... So one can ahve a 'stable neck' to string tension, but that does not add to it's inherinet rigidity that much, it is in it's nature only 'attached' at each end of the neck and prone to it's own problems related to this subject... We now do ahve materials such as graphite that are light and ridgid and different methods of construction, such as the Parker Fly's exoskelleton approach to provide rigidity and the truss rod can therefore be much lighter, even to a 'cable' in some designers hands. But many people simply use carbon fibre 'rods' or bars to impart the rigidity into the more traditional wooden structure. Manufactuers like Walden that I considered in my recent purchase do this as well as many custom builders and would definitiely be something one would consider if one were to be removing substanial amounts of material in saythe strongest laminated construction of the neck, the rosewood board for instance that provides not just a hard wearing surface, but those crucial rigidity forces. A wood like ebony is increadibly hard and can provide that and it's brittleness in construction compensated for, buy laminating to a mahogany neck for instance. Fender even originally devised his 'removable neck' to avoiud the use of truss rods believing that users could just bolt on another, but alos used somewhat cheaper woods and construction methods...they changed to the truss rod quickly when it was soon revealed that these things failed, before they could even be sold!!! SO one could ahve a 'stable' neck that might not change too much for going up a grade with the aid of this adjustable 'spring' but that does not make the structure more 'rigid. Removing searations of wood along the top surface is only going to weaken it more that the truss could counteract, but it will still be a less rigid structure and suffer as a result in other aspects. But then, 'sustain' is not necessarily the 'holy grail' that many 'enthusiasts' might assume or desire and should not be seen as something in of itself with the other aspects, such as the envelope and harmonic content through time...the aspects of 'tone' if you will... ... As to why you may seek more 'sustain', this was the purpose of teh Rafferty video. While you can shorten notes by things such as damping or striking the string with less energy...it is not so easy to induce more energy into the system once a string is struck to hold a note to the desired length and amplitude, if that is what you desire for expression. I've spent some years on some of these aspects, from trying to get a bit more 'sustain' as in aspects of my recent project and teh guitars design that accentuate that aspect (counter to a strat) all the way to inducing sustain electromagnetically and by other means. I ahve an interest in guitar construction and cohesive reasons both in principle and example. Someones alternative reality does not trump the laws of say, thermo-dynamics, which exist regardless of ones 'culture and language'...and one is tempted to add, so I will, was it not the Greeks and such who millenia ago outlined the means of logic and civil discussion and invalid argument strategies in teh form of 'logical fallacies' which abound here, and in general in the guitar community. SO, the culture thing, I don't buy it and the 'language', 'shouting at me and personal attacks' do not indicate a respect for that admirable culture which is the basis of science and reason. If that does say, in the USA, well...that's a pity... A lack of language is not been offered as an excuse and the reasonable response would not be to again attack me, especially with the preface, please do not take this the wrong way, but to say, "i am not following' or 'are you suggesting...'...or some such. That was not the case. As for other aspects, the logic is floored and supported by anacdotal observations of the most limited and flawed kind, this forum has not previously suggested nor conducted itself in a manner that would seriously entertain such fallacies. The 'promblem' is not in my criticism, but in the manner in which the OP responds to such things and his problem if it comes from me, and apparently not to others. I in no way intendedto cause offense and in my very first words tried to avoid that, not just in teh word 'seem' which is unambiguous and not an assumption nor an accusation and can not be construed so in the english language, it is a heavy proviso. The response seems to sugget though, that if I had assumed that, I was wrong. Well then, the onus is on the one offendedto point out the reasons why as explained earlier...and to show where I was wrong...not shout direct orders with an authority that he does not possess to hound down a selected member. I could well be wroing, also the implication fo teh word seems. As he takes exception to that, the onus is on hiom to show where and to elucidate us all on this 'special expertise' that I have apparently wrongly assumed he lacks. And...bear in mid, that hte apparent lack of knowledge is integrated into the very title and first post...that he does not know and is just making up from faulty intuition hypotheses and asking for a debate or opinion. Where do people get off criticising people for offering some alternative opinion or to point out the basic principles inherient in this scenario...or to ahve to point out to the powers that be that Shouting personal attacks is not a permissible or civil response...counter to what I am attempting to do here by yet again, having to defend and represent myself against them, from someone that selected me to abuse, and that I answered with good faith and useful information to consider and having to preface it with a 'please dont' which no one else need do nor should I ahve to...other than one might well assume in my position that this might be the result and his apparent right to outright abuse me is supported by condecending racial excuses and assumptions on behalf of the person himself and that it is some how my fault by passing on this information, information that others agree with and more and at least found useful, is agreeed abon. Are these people too to be publically castigated because their opinions/facts are also offensive...they did not feel the need to cautiously preface their replies in order to avoid this kind of thing now did they. I'm offended by this and much of this characteristic excuses on behalf of the complainent and would not at all think that it breaks a few of the rules of this forum in doing so...yet noone is saying, look GD...you have repeatedly gone overboard and you know...there is no reason that you have even offered, at least publically, and we would appreciate that you appologise and make amends and see any members posts in teh good spirit they are offered...especially considered that the first words specifically were devised to assure that this did not happen. What did he do...just start yet another 'sustain' thread....and hound out a member making good use of the forum for actual real projects and to help others. Clearing much of this up would significantly enhance this forum...
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Post by cynical1 on Aug 10, 2013 20:51:12 GMT -5
I apologize if I re-state something already mentioned in this thread. I'm still unpacking and have to feed horses, so pursuing the 12,000+ words already deposited here isn't in the cards for the moment.
IMHO, the reason you perceive a difference in sustain with the scalloped neck isn't as much a matter of physics, material mass or specific gravity of the wood at 12 percent dryness at sea level... I see it as something much more simple. It's your technique and touch. As you lack a "bottom" on the fingerboard to end the string travel behind the fret the slightest variance of your finger pressure will effect how the string resonates. In order to keep the note in tune you trade off the traditional depth behind the fret where the wood would be for the lightness of touch needed to fret a note at high speed.
Now, considering that scalloped necks run almost entirely in the domain of shredders, whose goal is as many notes as possible versus the longest sustain, you are asking for a result the design was never intended to deliver.
So, to try and finish this in fewer words than War and Peace, your scalloped neck is doing exactly what it's designed to do. The fact you are not getting the result you seek is not the fault of the design.
Remember the analogy of taking a Cessna to the moon?
That's it. Gotta get back to work.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2013 23:59:45 GMT -5
SG, right on the (nail's) head again. Cyn1, I have tried anything, pushing as hard as the note going up two semitones included.
this guitar is just cheap. The fact that i like it i guess was accidental. I would like the same way any strat. I am sorry i got you all in this, just because a cheapo guitar cannot sustain. It will never sustain. Its structural components are cheap chinese. Not, that a miracle would be out of the question (and a lot of epiphones, high-end squires and mid-level ibanezes are in fact chineze guitars which simply kick a$$), its just that this miracle didn't happen. Buying chinese parts independently (body, neck) and then expecting this to be the ultra sustaining strat is just crazy. I was stupid enough to invest in pup/tremolo/nut , etc....
I will try to sell this guitar for about 400 euros, and then save up and go and buy a nice HSS fender strat. And stop all the drama. Enough with playing the luthier here. Thanx everybody for your support.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 0:17:44 GMT -5
If it's green, you're in Biology; If it stinks, you're in Chemistry; and If it doesn't work, you're in Physics! LOL, could i add, if its multi-color with flying rainbows all around, and everything works as expected, then it must be political science/sociology ..... (oops there i said it, back to the shelter!)
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Post by 4real on Aug 14, 2013 1:12:32 GMT -5
If it's green, you're in Biology; If it stinks, you're in Chemistry; and If it doesn't work, you're in Physics! LOL, could i add, if its multi-color with flying rainbows all around, and everything works as expected, then it must be political science/sociology ..... (oops there i said it, back to the shelter!) Well if that was some 'lame dig' at me because I sent you a 'link' that directly addressed the issues that you are having...well... My degree is in fact in music, this year I will have been playing the guitar for 40 years and studying and modifying guitars for nearly that long...my opinion on 'nationality' is similarly based on common decency and empathy and an interest in the wider world. There is no reason and I own several great chinese and other nationality guitars, cant be excellent or made to be so...the thing is to pick a design and type of guitar that suits it's purpose and is best for me and not just a 'fan guitar'... There are plenty of good cheap guitars about if you know what you are looking for, but modifying guitars and customising has never been 'cheap'... "Rainbows"...WTF?? There was never any 'assumptions' and the preface made it clear that you could hold your 'tempter tantrum' long enough to take what I offered in the spirit that it was intended and consider the information provided on it's merit. The title alone was enough that one could 'reasonably assume' that you did not understand the underlying principles and you have not offeredanything based on teh 'real world' to explain your 'observations'... Meanwhile, you have failed to even offer anything of value in your 'hypothesis' or any other aspects of your questioning or why, when others say things that largely support or expand on what was offered, you did not take the smae offence at them. And of course, no appology or recanting your behaviour or words...just this...at least you didn't as those who castigated me earlier here as they did assume, that your language skills and culture is not up to the task of basic courteous communication and discussion. Yet, you took no exception to that either. Your 'assumptions' about me are way, way off the mark though, repeatedly. But then you seem to have learned nothing in all of this, the strat was not made with 'sustain' in mind and you can not consider one aspect of a guitars qualities separate from other aspects, almost everything is a trade off...even if made in "amercia" or anywhere else. One of the main reasons people went to 'jumbo frets' and the scalloping is an extension ofthat, was that this allowed for easier, faster pull off licks and 'trills' as the meat of teh fingers can catch the strings unhindered. Jumbo frest adds to the neck thickness effectively, while the scalloping allows for a thinner neck. The side effect is some loss in rgidity in traditional designs, but as many have asked, if your thing is shreading licks, sustain is not necessarily the aspect most in demand, for most. It could be done in various ways, as has been noted, such as the use of graphite reinforcement. All things worthy of reasonable discussion by reasonable people without the ritual putting of this forum into disrepute or insisting from one particular member who has tried to help, prefaced uniquely and with caution at that, in an attempt to curtail this kind of thing, yet you just cant help yourself in your attempt to exercise 'authority' that you don't ahve in a public forum and to elicit what does seem to be misguided 'support' and dragging others into your delusions and assumptions of me and my motives, instead of reading teh actual words and falsely assuming of me, the agenda that ony you create. Yes, if anyone else acted as you ahve, I would have the exact same kind of response and yet still offer to assist, but the reality is that few if any have acted in such a way. I am not at all surprised that you have had trouble at other forums, and yet that would be the 'fault' of everyone and anyone else I'm sure. You singled me out for some reason, I have and did not you other to be sure that you understood that I mean no offense' because of your temperament and anger problems. There is no way that I can as others assume, that it is something 'cultural or language' deficient which I would take a lot more offence at, as I know plenty of people from all kinds of backgrounds and nationalities that don't have a problem nor use that as an 'excuse' nor 'shift the blame' to others who, if you looked at all, would see that I was only hoping to educate and contribute and offered quite a bit of information that is perfectly valid and on topic. As you decided to shift this 'topic' again and immedicately to how 'p d off' you are with me...well, I feel entitled to defend myself and...why no appology as has been asked for?
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Post by newey on Aug 14, 2013 5:51:17 GMT -5
To 4real-
I have stayed out of this fray up til now, but I now have to jump in. I have re-read all of this, and I fail to see where anything GD has said here would cause you to feel the need to defend yourself at such length. It seems you are being overly sensitive, and seeing slights where none are intended.
Are you right on the physics? Yes, as sg noted above. Have you tried to help? Yes. But I fail to see where anyone owes you an apology.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2013 7:17:41 GMT -5
Just a follow up, today i played for 10-15 mins an american standard strat (in a nice little place in Bosnia, very friendly people, nice!!). The setup was lousy. With neck relief very high (0.5mm++), and action also very high (over 2mm at 12th fret), and also with pups height high, the strings so rusted, and with the stock weak pups, but the thing sounded right. Felt right. Sustained for more than 5-6 seconds for G,B,high E, 12th fret! And the guy asks 1000 euro for this... I am starting to thinking over this....
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Post by 4real on Aug 14, 2013 14:02:11 GMT -5
To 4real- I have stayed out of this fray up til now, but I now have to jump in. I have re-read all of this, and I fail to see where anything GD has said here would cause you to feel the need to defend yourself at such length. It seems you are being overly sensitive, and seeing slights where none are intended. Are you right on the physics? Yes, as sg noted above. Have you tried to help? Yes. But I fail to see where anyone owes you an apology. Specify exactly where I offended or that the origonal reply was offensive, culturally or language insensitive...length of reply, typos and other 'excuss' do not invalidate or suggest an inappropriate 'tone'...you are only encouraging GD to come back yet another day and hound me out of the forum and spread this kind of behaviour and attract more from others who see this behaviour and see it as a 'soft touch' and an open forum for abuse. I don't regard the assumed excuses that the admin has made on his behalf that his problem is that he is culturally and language incapable to understand that first post, or how I might be at all construded as offensive enough to be 'shouted at' and told 'never' to post anything in this open forum, which is not the first time, it is vitually everytime... I am offended by this behaviour...I do not enjoy these public abbominations and did not encourage it and do and did not deserve neither his first outcry nor the ongoing and rediculous arguments on his behalf that were also insulting. I did also, not derail this subject, as as soon as I posted a good link directly to this question, GD jumped down my throat in capital letters or the counter accuasations that "i am too sensitive" when it is he that jumped up and down about a simple offering of a link with the intent to help and prefaced with the normally unecessary, please dont take offence, and the clear non assumptive 'seems' proviso...whicle massive assumptions are made on his behalf, also at length I might add, largely to his defence, directly afterwards...because he is culturally and language deficient...you do relize that I too come from a different culture and not shown the same 'sensitivities'...so why this special "case" and why should I be the one, the only one, that needs to be "sensitive" to him...others arent and have said things here that are far more 'offensive' or no different...why single me out then? Because I post too long, or the forum lacks a spell checker of that this subject is more about GD and his ludicrous theories and purchases and biases than guitar modification and playing the darn things...and in the case of this forum, helping and contributing, and if you did read that first post to which he took exception and derailed his this thread into this 'issue', now making this 'on topic' then at his instigation. It is not about 'being right' either... And...it is not so that I am 'pciking on' him at all. We have seen this before and reacted exactly the same way, and 'excuses' made on culture and language that turned out to be malicious and fake andthe same person join under multiple identities again and again...so no, I do not make exceptions, it is just that most people do not behave in the manner GD does...and that does make me a bit 'sensitive'...but unlike GD, I am replying to posts directed personally towards me in a public forum and on a topic that in doing so, he chose... But, as for the 'length of reply' (a cheap shot farnkly) I have offered plenty in good spirit that speaks directly to this original topic and with good intention. When a member directly and repeatedly stands over another and uses and abuses authority that he does not possess...well, if there is not a rule there should be, but further, it should have been then that someone should have pulled him aside and said, hey, if you did not want comment, don't put it on a public forum, and defended me instead of making up patently offensive excuses and further entrench the situation...or is that some kind of 'cultural difference' between me and the forum admin and others? PMs could ahve been used as well, that is what it is for, but that was specifically rulled out and I certainly have not made nor recieved any... SO, I am sorry, but I fail to see how an appology is not an appropriate response for his outburst and the management of it and further insults in that process...and if you have read it, why you missed that request... I am sick and tired of this one member loosing it because I offer some assistance or in this case, a link to something of direct relevance, or indeed ask for clarification...all very normal and 'non offencie' but, since GD has a 'problem' it is some how made mine, because I am 'too sensitive'...but if so, why is his curious sensitivites accomodated and encouraged and mine that can be shown to be valid, compounded with further demands upon me? As I asked, where exactly did I in my original post did I 'make assumptions' or offend, especially when prefaced with the words...I do not want to offend'...sheesh... ... So, GD saw a guitar...perhaps start a new section just for GD and others who want to glow or criticise some instrument they saw in a shop somewhere and how much it costs...as if the number of 'euros' has any bearing on how good something might be... Many times by many members the question has been asked as to even why this particular aspect of the instrument is of particular importance so that people can offer suggestions that is just outright ignored. When for many posts and threads abuse is thrown at parts made in 'china' (when most things are made in such places) when clearly the problem is the workmanship and lack of gumption to investigate exactly what went wrong or why that simple peice went wrong. One might 'assume' that filling guitar necks with wood glue and baking soada, breaking screws off in the neck and impatient and poor workmanship and a reluctance to aquire and learn to use the appropriate basic tools required to do such work might well be at fault...then without reference to the likely cause of the problems, start a myriad of ongoing posts slamming such products that likely failed due to his ineptitude...and we all have to be so 'sensitive' to this one particular member and spread this rubbish? Come on, I ahve stepped around this and tried to assist only to recieve this kind of bollocking and calls to take into account his problems, while at times, every 'recent post' that a visitor here might see is this kind of stupidity and perpetuation of illogic and abuse as if the guy is still on some 'ultimate gutiar' slam site or something. So, sensitive, perhaps, but with reason and I did initially, till GD made this thread yet again about me with baseless assumptions and offence taken without any clarification as to exactly where. If he actually did read that link offered as you can see directly asks the questions that he has repeatedly asked here, he would be a lot more 'informed' and perhaps even see how a discussion can be made without the supurfluous ad himinin attacks and run down of logical fallacies and crys of cultural insensivity...or you are too sensitive. You know....how about you make the same accusation at him, next time he takes offense at someone that prefaces his reply with 'please dont take offense' and provides a link that those who read it, would agree speaks directly to the topic at hand... And don't compound the logical fallacies by suggesting that the spelling or length of reply invalidates the message there in...if there is a specific place in my original response that deserved this, let me know...because all I've heard is the proposition by others that it is a matter of language and culture and that I have not been 'sensitive enough' and that the word 'seeems' is some how assumptive when it clearly is not, and that I should even have to think to ask for offense not to be taken, indicates that my intention was to try and offer a contribution that in no way deserved a personal attack or those accusations, or the support that he should make them, ensuring that this will continue and downgrade the forum and the information in it. For all that, an appology or retractions are warranted...and if your proposition were to be shown to be in anyway true, then it would come from me!! In my 'culture' making an appology goes a long way to keeping the peace and mo0ving forward, all you've done is add more insults and compounded the problem and given more strength to ensure that more of the same is a likely consequence...or am I being insensitive to your culture by suggesting that option?
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Post by 4real on Aug 14, 2013 14:11:50 GMT -5
4real if you want a nice convo, pls NEVER EVER make any more assumptions about what i have grasp on and what not. I had more than good intentions to learn (btw i am comp. scientist who graduated 8.5/10 out of one of the hardest depts). Every time you seem to start like this, but you never deliver in the end. pls solve this if you want a decent convo. This is very irritating, embarrassing, especially when the signal/insult(=noise) ratio is not so high. Thanx in advance. for the record ^ Who cares if he is a computer scientist...but i was right in the assumption that he would 'take offense' and fail to read the actual words or the link or quote or it "seems" ahve a grasp of the basic principles involved or as john calculated, removing 15% of the structure reduces the rigidity by 40% and why that would affect the result... I don't think it is what I have said at all that so appauled him, it's his own inadequacies and ego that need no help from me to make that plain... And, as posts that followed show, that link and information provide did inform the discussion and most posts referenced it...except for teh streem of defending this kind of post and others like it for some time now.... Nor do I have to tollerate racial slurs, even in this thread, and be told to be mute on the basis of cultural difference
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Post by sumgai on Aug 14, 2013 21:46:48 GMT -5
Pete, you just handed me a veritable cornucopia of reasons to come down on you, but..... I'm not gonna do that. Instead, I'm gonna go ya one better - I'm gonna do exactly what you accuse others of doing, and that is not reading all of the words you write, and especially not reading them with the intent of dissecting every one of them to discern the "true intent" of your message. Let's go back in time: ..... and be told to be mute on the basis of cultural difference You just attempted to turn my words into a different meaning. To wit: I did not say "mute", nor use any other synonym to give that impression. What I did say was "understand that there are cultural differences". And at that, this phrasing was expressed some time ago, not just recently. More recently, I alluded to cross-language translations also getting in the way of clear understanding between the involved parties. Just so we are clear here, I do not intend that you shut up, I intend, as the Administrator, that you learn tolerance, and that you grow a thick skin. Yes, I said that, right here in black and white - I want you to become impervious to assumed slights, slurs, negative intentions, etc. Let it all roll off your back, or your blood pressure is gonna cause you to have a stroke. (Oh please, please, please trust me on that one, I speak from personal experience.) Only in this way can you get past whatever you perceive is wrong with a person/post/thread/forum/internet/life/whatever is bothering you at the moment. Back to that "full intent and import" thing.... I for one don't mind reading lots of data. Number 5 said it best: "More input, more input!". But to be honest, I read for meaning, and for nuggets of wisdom, I don't read to see how many words I can gather in during one sitting. And most of all, I don't like to play lexicographer with each and every word spoken/written, I want to get to the idea of one's thoughts, and chew on that for awhile. I do that (gather overall meanings) by reading and rendering intentions all in one swell foop. I need not go any further in critiquing your verbiage, that's for another day (indeed, if ever), I'll only say, you tax my cognitive processes, sometimes heavily. If I have to start assembling everything by breaking it down to word-by-word, then I may indeed start missing out on some of your wisdom. Come to think of it, when you write what you know (the technical aspects), I have no problem catching your drift. When you write in "defensive mode", I catch myself assuming what you're intending to say, and still miss out on some of it, as witness your rebuttals. So I ask myself "why is this, what makes Pete write so differently between the two modes?". I can't answer that - can you? Tolerance. Compromise. Observation and acceptance of others foibles without lashing out at perceived incompetance. That is what makes the world go around my friend, but don't trust me on that, I'm only quoting Ghandi and others of like stature. Trying to mold the reality of others to your liking is only gonna end in tears, trust me on that one (no quoting others, that's my original ). If this were a PM, and I'll expain why it's not in a moment, I'd open up to you with some choice personal anecdotes from my life's history, but since it's public..... Let me say only that I needed about 50 years of life to learn that this isn't my planet, and that there are many, many editions of Life's Little Book Of Rules, most of them a lot older than my personal copy. Perhaps your copy needs a bit of editing and updating, hmmmm? As to why this is public, let me stress and reinforce - this message is to let all and sundry know that newey and I are not firecrackers when it comes to taking care of problems, but neither do we sit back and let it all hang out. We made that mistake with the Cypress thread, we're not making it again. Further, I'm a betting man, I'd lay odds that several/most readers have been to other forums where suddenly a member "disappears", seemingly without a trace, and everyone wonders "what did the Admin say to him, was there any conversation at all?" or other similar phraseology. I don't want that here, it smacks of "power tripping". I do have the time and inclination to reason it all out, and absent a good reason not to do so, I'm also willing to share my thoughts. A well-run Forum should not have the members wondering "What's going on in the Admin's head, is he going off half-cocked?" Anyway, that's my take on your epistles of late. I have to castigate greekdude, you do indeed deliver, when the chips are down. Or at least you make a valiant attempt, no one can take that away from you. But as soon as one certain member shows up, you take that effort only so far, and then suddenly it's all guns are out and blazing - that's not warranted, and especially not here in The NutzHouse! From now on, and this is An Official Warning, don't make assumptions, and for Gawd's sake, don't get defensive. If you think someone is getting "in your face", then back off. Back off and let newey or I handle it. (Of course you can always ask for help publicly or privately, if you so desire.) Trust me on this, we are sensitive to the needs of our members, and for the near-term future, we're gonna pay much closer attention to what's happening. If there does develop a "he started it" situation, then someone's pouch is gonna be missing a high percentage of marbles at the end of the game. I trust I've said enough to make my point clearly. If not, please be unafraid to ask for clarification. I know that I often come across as know-it-all asshelmet or worse, but in this case, I've made every possible effort to bring you the bottom line in no uncertain terms - you are the one in danger of suffering here, no one else. Making your personal pet peeves public is one thing - disrespcting an individual member is quite another. Let's have no more of that, shall we? Please? Thank you. sumgai
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Post by asmith on Aug 15, 2013 8:52:28 GMT -5
I used to like this place.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2013 9:48:17 GMT -5
Guys, lets take it easy here. If one must leave, that should be me. I am newer here than 4real, have not contributed as much as him, and caused more troubles than positive vibes, overall. I am sorry to see asmith say this. I could very well stop writing, and only write when i am in deep need of (professional!!) guitaristic-lutherie help!
Cheer up guys!
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Post by ux4484 on Aug 15, 2013 11:42:31 GMT -5
You see GD, that's the rub... JohnA wasn't a luthier, he was just a guy who picked up a cheap guitar later in life and couldn't stand that it was noisy... He experimented and researched some stuff, and threw it up on a page for others LIKE HIM who couldn't find this info easily. This forum is a DIRECT offshoot of that principle. If people like you leave it... It doesn't have a purpose. I left for reasons completely outside this forum, and now that I have a bit more time on my hands, I came back... The mood does seem a bit different, but it is very heartening for me to see so many old friends still here. You know, there's always someone more educated and experienced in SOMETHING than you, me, and everyone else. . You had a Spider-Man to Reed Richards moment (hope you read comics). Reed is Sooo smart, he doesn't even know when he's steamrolling someone... Unless Ben or Sue tell him. Every person in a team (or community) has something to contribute, there is no "here" without members like us.
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Post by newey on Aug 15, 2013 12:06:00 GMT -5
Well said, ux! No one has to leave because of anything that has been said here, if anyone leaves it's his or her individual choice.
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Post by ux4484 on Aug 15, 2013 14:49:45 GMT -5
Thanks! BTW, you're Sue (Gai has to be Ben Grimm)
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