greybagz
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Post by greybagz on Aug 23, 2013 0:28:13 GMT -5
Hello Everyone... It's been a long time since I've been here. Hope you are all well. Haven't been doing much guitar stuff of late since having 2 children. I have a friend who has approached me for my soldering and wiring skills, however this one has stumped me... I am hoping someone here may be able to point me in the right direction, keeping n mind some components in the following pics might not be correct/ original. The bass in question has two pickups and the following scratchplate configuration....    I have no idea whats going on here. To me, it looks like it's been hacked at and failed.... Is anyone able to sketch something up that may work? Appreciate your time guys. Take Care Graeme |
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Post by newey on Aug 23, 2013 5:21:09 GMT -5
Based on the "Hi-Lo" output switch and the "3kΩ" tone pot labeled "Bass", I'm guessing this was an active set-up originally. Is there a battery lurking somewhere? Do the pickups appear as if they might have active electronics inside?
Apart from that, hard to tell what all those switches are doing.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2013 5:31:31 GMT -5
Makes sense newey, I looked at it too, and couldnt think of anything useful that a 3k pot could do with pasdive pickups. But if it was active, it seems more likley.
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col
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Post by col on Aug 23, 2013 15:01:52 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2013 15:41:53 GMT -5
Wow, yes it is! From the era of the low impedance Les Paul Recording. A nice pic of a Triumph Bass:  |
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Post by newey on Aug 23, 2013 15:46:28 GMT -5
Good pull, col! I hadn't thought of the LP recording, the pot value makes sense with low-Z pickups.
However, the schematic you show is for the (presumably) 6-string LP recording. It shows a 6-position rotary "decade switch" (sort of like a varitone)which neither the Triumph bass photos, nor greybaggz' version have.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2013 16:29:00 GMT -5
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col
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Post by col on Aug 23, 2013 18:11:46 GMT -5
Hi greybagz
Assuming your friend decides to keep this pick guard, he will need a pair of Les Paul bass low impedance Humbucker pickups to make use of the available switching, or, more probably (if available), something cheaper along similar lines. The tone system makes use of three taps from the pickups. Of course, he could opt for some other configuration to make use of that tone switch.
Thanks for digging up the correct schematic, John.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 23, 2013 20:15:04 GMT -5
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col
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Post by col on Aug 23, 2013 21:29:13 GMT -5
Hey, John, Since I cannot find any other reference to a Navarra Triumph copy anywhere on the Net, and since both have stuffed wiring, I wonder what the chances are of this being the same guitar? Maybe different owners!?  Well, we'll see what greybagz has to say about the guitar's history. |
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greybagz
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Post by greybagz on Aug 25, 2013 5:25:46 GMT -5
Hey guys, Sorry for the delay in replying. Flew to Sydney to help my mate bring a car home... Long drive back to Hervey Bay.. Wow, what an awesome reply from you all, you guys have never let me down. so great to see all the original guys here too!! Can't believe how quick you replied and found the info to help me. Here's a couple of pics of the guitar itself... Definitely a replica of the Triumph. Nice find guys!! I'd never heard of it.    Now i just gotta get my head around the schematics... I'll try n draw a line diagram and get you guys to check it for me. It seems this Navarra uses a bit of both schematics that Col & JohnH supplied. The pickups are only 2 wire types, also i'm not too sure how this 'Tone' selector switch works..(out with the multimeter me thinks)... I don't know much about the history of the guitar except that he's had it for years and picked it up pretty cheap second hand... Cheers again guys, i'll get started on it tomorrow. Graeme. |
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col
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Post by col on Aug 25, 2013 15:23:36 GMT -5
I'm guessing that this was never wired like the original Triumph. Maybe the tone switch on this is actually a pickup selector. Either way, it might be used for that purpose now (assuming you are not going to invest a lot of cash finding pickups similar to the original Les Paul bass low impedance Humbucker pickups (with three taps).
Do you think you will try to wire this (as far as possible) like the original Triumph Recorder, or go your own way?
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greybagz
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Post by greybagz on Aug 25, 2013 15:57:42 GMT -5
Hi Col,
I would like to get it as close as possible to original. Including the Navarra pickups. I'm hoping with the info you guys have found me, I'm able to suss it out.
Oh btw, I looked at that other link from another forum, and guess what, small world, the post was from the owner of this guitar, Doug.
I'll be in touch with my progress.
Another massive thanks to you all for helping.
Talk soon.
Gaeme
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col
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Post by col on Aug 25, 2013 16:37:30 GMT -5
Hi greybagz,
Do you mean like the original Gibson Recorder, or the Navarra Recorder? I'm guessing, though, that there never was an original Navarra Recorder, and this is an original Gibson scratch plate in Navarra bass. I say this because I cannot find another example of a Navarra Recorder (though, I have not searched exhaustively). It would be nice to have images of an original Gibson Recorder bass internals for comparison. The scratch plate looks identical to the Gibson.
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Post by JohnH on Aug 25, 2013 17:05:44 GMT -5
Good luck. If you would like it to be a collaborative project, it could be some fun for GN2.
Id suggest the way to start is to get a multimeter out and try to understand each seperate part as to how it was intended to work and whether it still does. For pickups; is each a single coil, or two? Are the coils tapped? Are there seperate ground wires? What coil resistances berween each wire? Try some tap tests.
For switches, exactly what lugs connect to which in each position, and do they work properly? Pots, what value, and do they turn freely and are they scratchy (inconsistent jumpy readings when turned). Log or lin? Transformer winding resistances?
If we can develop a schematic that represents the parts, then working out a sensible wire-up should be easy enough. I can contribute some modelling analysis if needed
Cheers
J
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Post by newey on Aug 25, 2013 19:17:39 GMT -5
Putting your meter to the pickups should resolve the question of whether they are low impedance or not. My suspicion is that they are indeed, and that the Navarra is a close copy, although not exact perhaps, of the Gibby original.
I mean, presumably, you make a copy for the guy who can't afford the original but wants one, and the low impedance pups were sort of the point of the original.
While the low-Z pickup thing never caught on in the guitar world, it is/was more prevalent in basses. Doesn't Alembic make low impedance basses to this day?
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col
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Post by col on Aug 25, 2013 19:42:05 GMT -5
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col
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Post by col on Aug 25, 2013 21:21:32 GMT -5
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greybagz
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Post by greybagz on Sept 2, 2013 5:30:59 GMT -5
Hey guys, Terribly sorry for the delay in replying.... I've been so busy at work and round the house. I appreciate all your input and patience. I'd like to keep the guitar as original to a Navarra as it can be. Achievable i believe by using a combo of the schematics that you guys found for me. So some info for you all to ponder on. I measured both pickups resistances and they are each 8.85ohm (not k-ohm). They seem to be single coils, big fat copper wire, and wax/ resin potted. One of the slide switches was stuffed, so I'm replacing both with 2 new ones. Both DPDT. The internal transformer has one winding of 33ohm and the other winding of 6.5k-ohm. I have sketched up a schematic that I'll post when I'm on the Mac, I haven't worked out how to attach pics from my iPhone. The schematic is basically a combination of the LP recording guitar & LP Triumph bass guitar. My biggest question is, Where in the world can I purchase/ acquire 2x 2.5k-ohm & 1x 1k-ohm pots?  All the replies and info discovered on the LP Triumph has been much appreciated guys. Cheers everyone.. Graeme. |
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Post by JohnH on Sept 2, 2013 6:48:19 GMT -5
1k pots are a standard value - shouldnt be any problem to get them from Jaycar or online. 2.5k is also a standard value but not quite so common. It would just be a matter of choosing 16mm or 24mm, and the style of shaft to suit the knob.
Gee those coils really are low impedance - interesting. Are you anywhere near a mixer? I expect they could be tested by going into a mic input.
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greybagz
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Post by greybagz on Sept 4, 2013 19:36:20 GMT -5
JohnH, no mixer close by. I've combined the LP Recording Guitar & LP Triumph Bass schematics to come up with this one. Can you guys have a look and see if it'll work? The majority of it is copied from the LP Recording Guitar, mainly cause of the 2 wire pickups. Capacitor values are as per the Triumph wiring. And the HI/LO switch is as per the Triumph wiring.... Navarra Bass Schematic.pdf (236.24 KB)How'd I go?? Looking forward to your replies, Graeme Oh, and I've sourced the 2.5k & 1k pots... They're on their way. |
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Well, we'll see what greybagz has to say about the guitar's history.
