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Post by lunaalta on Oct 14, 2013 14:12:18 GMT -5
For the last several years I haven't 'messed around' inside any guitars, except for the odd repair/tweek. But the other day a friend left his git with me, and it buzzes....... O. K. So, I have my friend's Fender '62 reissue Telecaster (Crafted in Japan¿) which buzzes quite loudly, except when touched (when it buzzes quietly... ). I figured I might just quiet the beast's cousin, with shielding, and then all will be well, believing this to be the source of the problem. But, it seems things are not so simple, unless I'm wrong... The neck pick up is fitted directly to the body, and not to the pick guard. So the PU mounting screws, with their springs (there is a recess for the springs in the wood), are in direct contact with the base of the cavity. The screening instructions, from GN1, indicate that the screen and the springs/screws attaching the PU should not connect. Does this mean that screening (or at least in this cavity) becomes a/impossible or b/complicated? Searching for the buzz, I have checked ground continuity all round the circuitry and all seems to be well. I also plugged my 'quieted' Strat into an amp with the same settings, etc, and the Tele is 'noisy'. He also gave me a set of Lindy Fralin Blues Special PUs and asked me to fit them (while I have the Tele in pieces). So, while I wait to see if someone has info for the above, I'll go fit them (assuming it is just a straight changeover job). I may be wrong, but I'm thinking this will not affect the buzz (nice if it did though ). N. B. Regarding the model, the owner is a little vague (it's a good friend of mine who is Spanish and speaks no, or very little English) and I can't find a pic of one on the inter web thingy with the white binding this one has. It has a black body (white binding top and back), maple neck with rosewood fingerboard, vintage tuners and 2 SC pick ups (neck PU covered), with a horrible, (almost) mint green scratch plate. The headstock decal just says Fender "Telecaster". Back/heel of the neck says Crafted in Japan along with the serial number (begins with S). Oh, and there is no wooden plug at the head where the truss rod would end. I'd be grateful for any help with this, since my buddy kind of looks up to me (he's about 25 years younger) when it comes to guitars and playing. Also, if I fix the problem, I'm sure he'd leave his Gibson Custom LP and Martin acoustic with me, if I asked..... Well, he would anyway...........LOL. He's a nice guy and a good friend.
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Post by newey on Oct 14, 2013 21:13:07 GMT -5
It might make a difference, Fralin makes a nice pickup, probably a better quality than what's on there now. And quality usually comes down to attention to detail, which can help minimize hum.
It could end up noisier, too, but I'd lay odds on quieter.
I'm no expert on Teles, and I don't recall seeing one as you have described it with the pickup directly mounted. But if the issue is the screws contacting the shielding, a little piece of electrical tape over the shielding at the point of potential contact should do the trick. Or, just omit the shielding in that area- remember, the shield does not have to be a perfectly enclosed space in order to function, some gaps are OK and probably won't matter a bit as far as the noise level goes.
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 15, 2013 10:24:11 GMT -5
Thanks for that, Newey, I'll give it a go, leaving holes where the screws and springs touch wood. Sadly, the Fender screws don't fit the Fralin PU at the bridge! So, it's of on a trip around the ironmongers to find screws that fit..............
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Post by sumgai on Oct 15, 2013 11:54:54 GMT -5
The original Telecaster (and its forerunners) had exactly this setup, that being the Neck pickup was not adjustable in height without first removing the pickguard. The serial number on the neck starting with 'S' would normally mean it was made in sometime around 1994 or 1995. However, Fender Japan supposedly didn't start using the CIJ designator until 1997. Such are the vagaries of keeping records, eh? That said, Fender has never put binding on both the front and back edges of any of their standard line guitars, no matter where on this planet it was made/crafted. I'm sure some Custom Shop axes have had that treatment, but not their bread-and-butter stuff. My guess at this point would be that somebody married a Fender neck to a custom-built body. Stranger things have been known to occur..... Even given all that, it doesn't truly matter - what matters is that the guitar plays well, looks good, and satisfies the owner/player. Obvioulsy it's been owned by the same feller for some time, so that must be the case. All that's actually bugging him is the hum, and that's always been a standard complaint with this type of axe. Luna, I think the Fralins will make a noticible difference, both in tone and hum reduction, but while yer in there, why not shield the whole thing anyway, just to be sure. That bit about not allowing the pickups-mounting screws to touch the under-guard shielding material is only a matter of safety - John Atchley truly believed that an old tube amplifier will fail catastrophically exactly when the user chooses to touch the pickup screws, and not at any other time. Evidence of such happening over the last seventy years is pretty scarce, so I think the odds of letting the screws touch the shielding and thereby creating a problem are weighted pretty heavily in favor of the owner. Good luck, and post pix, before, during and finished. Sound clips would earn you extra brownie points! HTH sumgai
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 15, 2013 13:52:58 GMT -5
Mmmmm, I like brownies....... Actually, I don't think he's had it for too long. But he doesn't use it, preferring his LP and Strat. He has some nice amps too! A nice setup. all round. All in his soundproofed room, complete with A/C, drums and bass ready set up, next to the garage, so easy loading........ I'm working, with him, on the recording side of the room, at the moment. The guy who gave him the PUs is a well thought of luthier, with a business about 50 kms from here. He's also their distributor for Fralin, for this side of Spain. Another issue has shown it's head, apart from the fixing screw size. One of the screws, in the bridge PU, has sheared off. Wasn't me, honest... LOL. Now I realise why he gave them away (say's cynical me). So, they are obviously second hand. No problem. So long as they work and sound good, he'll be a happy bunny! What I have decided to do, is take the thing to a friend's house (a German client, who has every tool under the sun...) who has a drill press and all kinds of threading tools. I'll drill out the broken piece of thread, and then size the holes for the Fender screws and tap them. Job done. Good job they are larger in diameter.... Sumgai, thanks for that info. His gear is all pretty new, or tastily old...... And his house wiring will be in good shape. So, hopefully, there shouldn't be any dangerous failures. So, I'll go ahead and screen the lot. That bridge cavity is pretty tiny for my (getting) older hands, so the less messing around, the better. Due to lack of resources around here, I'll be using kitchen foil. I want to try to get each cavity covered with one craftily shaped piece, to remove any joining problems. Hmmmmm......... I'll ask him where he got it from. I've seen pics of 'Custom' Teles with both bindings on Gurgle images. Maybe someone married one with a standard neck¿¿ Are there any marks, that you know of, that would identify the body as Fender? Or a date mark??? I took a couple of pics before I started, and I'll try to remember to take pics as I progress........ well, I remember the 60s, it's recent stuff that sometimes has me stumped! .......and, I'll definitely be tracking something with this, I'll have it to play with for a bit. I just finished a 'country' song, maybe I'll swop the Strat tracks for Tele tracks. Hey, if I wear a cowboy hat and boots, do you think I'll play more country? Thanks again, for the help and support guys, Ill keep you posted......... Ted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2013 3:49:23 GMT -5
Luna just an idea, you could use those rubber "washers" they sell in hydraulics stores.
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2013 15:12:18 GMT -5
Sheilding is great, but you can often get as good a functional shielding from using all sheilded wire rather than shielding everything. Most of my guitars are done that way and completely quiet to silent (with noisless pups)...on a tele particularly, you have small cavities with the controls mounted to a shielded metal plate, if you pickups run sheilded wiring and to the jack, there is little else not sheilded as the pots themselves are enclosed as well.
If you want to 'spring load' pickups mounted to the body, stuff like neoprene or expanded foam (such as an old foam mouse mat) and double sided tape makes an excellent 'spring' under the pickup itself...this is typical with top mounted pups as in my strat and results in less 'micrphonics' as the pup is dampened and held a lot more stable to vibrations than suspended on springs...
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 16, 2013 16:57:55 GMT -5
That's an interesting idea, 4real. It also explains GD's comment, which confused me, at first....... LOL Well, since I'm busy working (painting a large house, single handed), at the moment, I'm gonna concentrate on getting the pup useable, firstly, then I'll deal with the screening, or possibly screening the cables....... hmmmmmmm........ Gonna drop the PU off at my German friends house for him to make a plan. Hey sumgai, you might have to bake some fresh brownies next week...........
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Post by 4real on Oct 16, 2013 22:29:34 GMT -5
All my guitars are done this way... My LP in the gallery, you can see there is a lot of wires going from the pups and back and forth to the selector through the tunnels...there's no room tos shield there. Even though a complicated wiring, the gutiar is dead quiet without sheilding by using shileded wire where possible. You might find for compact shileded cable, something like cheap RCA leads are a good source. If you have a complicated pup though like a HB, youd need 4 core plus sheild. But then, most come fitted that way these days. Another 'tip'...rather than try and solder the sheild to componest, like the back of pots, solder a wire to it and tape up neatly, then solder the wire as required, a lot easier and neater if using a lot of sheiled wire...something to coinsider anyway...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2013 8:17:40 GMT -5
^^ Thanks for those tips. I was having some slight hum issues with my ibby LP-type ARZ800 powered by EMG81/60, i realized that i had some hum problems under (unnaturally) extreme gain and while having the guitar at a certain orientation, and i started comparing to the rest of my guitars. The Carvin DC135 powered by Dimarzio Super Distortion which has (almost very good) factory shielded cavity/cover was better than the Ibyy in the worse location but was worse than the ibby in other locations/orientations, the (partially shielded) partscaster/HS3 was so and so depending on the orientation and pup used (bridge/neck - all HS3), the Kramer 210 powered by Seymour Duncan livewires, also shielded performed better in the neck position than the ibby and the carvin, worse in the bridge, and the big surprise here was the Aria!!! (the one we had the convo about the nut width ). Well this Aria has zero shielding, never did anything about it. Just installed the Dimarzio Fast Track 1/2 some ages ago and left it there, till recently i re-did all the electronics with new pots/switch, connected the bridge pup to the mid tone pot + i used a push/pull for coil-splitting both for bridge / neck. This guitar has Fast Track 2 in the bridge, Fast Track 1 in the neck and a generic vintage Aria mid pup. Well... this guitar has an output level close to the EMGs, but it is quieter than all of the rest combined!! I was remembering i had soldering problems with this one... just as i read your post... and BINGO!!! i recall i used some audio speaker cables from my old stereo!!! quite thick in comparison to the stock wires. (i threw all the old stock elctronics to the garbage, i had headaches with them for nearly 30 years). So that could be an explanation! the audio thicker wires acted as a shield! That, or it is strictly a matter of pups, that is the alternative theory.
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Post by 4real on Oct 17, 2013 17:28:18 GMT -5
Nope...speaker wires are not sheilded and thickness makes no difference,just makes it harder and takes more room.
With shielded cable, there is a core (or several) and an outer covering of (usually braided) 'shiled' which is grounded. All kinds of cables are made this way or similar, many from computers for instance that are now suplus, but many audio like RCA to RCA component connectors that are generally cheap. I tend to buy high quailty cables, but the smaller ones are good some times and perfectly adequate.
With a shiled cavity, you are sheilding the bare wirese and components inside that 'fraday cage' or sheild from RF interference. With the sheilded wire approach, you are sheilding each wire right up around it and so sheilding is not necessary...except where the connecting wires eit the sheild which should be reasonably short. The pot casings are a sheild as well. Of course, one could sheild the cavities as well. However, on something like a tele, the cavity is small and covered by the metal control plate that is grounded by the pots, so in my experience, the need for sheilding is minimal.
I tend to use noiseless pickups (though some do split to true singles) these days...so I know the noise is not fromthem, and so with this method I've been able to get zero noise, without the cavity sheilding. With say a split HB the noise is very minimal on the same guitars, but that is not the wiring as demoed with the same noiseless set up, but the pickupitself. Never the less, it is very quiet regardless, even with true single coils...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2013 2:09:19 GMT -5
Hmmm so either i got lucky with this one for some unknown reason, or i used shielded wires without knowing it, or shielding has zero effect with humbuckers. I repeat that this Aria strat has zero shielding job, and is by far the quietest guitar in the house under extreme distortion. I guess with your levels of distortion most guitars would sound quiet more or less. The problem is manifested only under extreme gain. What is the use case of discussing this? Probably none. In 99.99% of the situation even the noisiest HB guitar under extreme gains, would perform fine under normal gain levels (normal : rock/metal to nu-metal, very heavy modern metal + wah wah + some slight use of noise gate). So practically there is no problem really. The problem is theoretical, i am sure has been beaten to death here, and still no definite answer i guess.
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 19, 2013 11:03:30 GMT -5
A quick update........... Firstly, a big thanks for all of the very useful information. So, the drilling and thread cutting went well. PUs fitted and working fine. I also decided to go for shielding, in the end. I didn't want to cut back the PU wires... It was a little fiddly, but I got there in the end. I put electrical tape on the selector switch, to avoid any short circuits there. I also put tape at the ends of the bridge PU cavity, to avoid contact with the springs. The Tele is much quieter now, thankfully. Still a small buzz, but acceptable, for the moment. I'll know more about this when I get the thing hooked up for recording, possibly, later today. Only problem now, is the loud 'click', if I touch any of the metalwork with my fingers. Is this something that is easy to deal with? Oh yeah, pics are ready for processing (RAW files) and a sound clip will be done soon. I noticed that the bridge PU has 'Hybrid' written on the back side of the label. That explains the raised D pole piece, I guess.
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Post by newey on Oct 19, 2013 16:44:34 GMT -5
Did you disconnect the neck P/U cover?
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 20, 2013 5:51:26 GMT -5
Did you disconnect the neck P/U cover? The replacement Lindy Fralin doesn't have a cover. But, I did notice I'd forgotten to ensure that the overspill foil in the control cavity contacted the cover plate..... Much better now, though at volume there is still a small contact noise, but at volume. I recorded a short mess around, just to check to see if I can find noise in the wave form. Not a thing, nothing, nada!! So, I'm a happy bunny. The owner told me to do whatever I wanted to the Tele, to 'treat it as your own' (but in Spanish, of course, LOL). So, I was thinking of painting it flourescent pink with a 6" brush, with lime green splodges on it. He, he, he..... Yeah, maybe not. I hope, today, to get the pics up and a sound file. Again, thanks guys. Anyone have tips on how to clean up my apartment, now that I have tools and 'stuff' laying just about everywhere......... LOL.
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 20, 2013 9:25:29 GMT -5
I've put some images of the Telecaster here: Two Track MusicYou will have to scroll down to the bottom of the 1st page, for the pics. Now, on to the sound files...........
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 20, 2013 11:40:46 GMT -5
A quick demo is now posted at the same link ( Two Track Music), near the top of the second page (I'm Whitestrat73, by the way). No eq, of any kind, or effects, just straight into Sonar 8 Pro. No fancy playing, just strumming, neck PU first, then both, then bridge and then some simple picking, same order. It does sound sweet with some overdrive and delay, I must say, but that wouldn't demo what it really sounds like.
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Post by sumgai on Oct 20, 2013 14:14:11 GMT -5
WS73, Nice, showing a Tele in the avatar of a user with Strat in his name! Nicer would be if the TwoTrackMusic forum actually displayed either the genuine articles or at least linked to them... or are all those FaceBook links holding the pix and sound tracks you allegedly posted? (WireShark (and other port monitors) tell me that no such things are forthcoming from TTM, and that's a sad thing indeed. ) That forum does look like a good compadre to our own NutzHouse, but I dunno.... any place that'd let someone named High Moon be a Global Moderator, that's just.... Nutz! Glad to hear that you got the kinks worked out for your buddy. sumgai
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 20, 2013 15:57:40 GMT -5
WS73, Nice, showing a Tele in the avatar of a user with Strat in his name! Nicer would be if the TwoTrackMusic forum actually displayed either the genuine articles or at least linked to them... or are all those FaceBook links holding the pix and sound tracks you allegedly posted? (WireShark (and other port monitors) tell me that no such things are forthcoming from TTM, and that's a sad thing indeed. ) That forum does look like a good compadre to our own NutzHouse, but I dunno.... any place that'd let someone named High Moon be a Global Moderator, that's just.... Nutz! Glad to hear that you got the kinks worked out for your buddy. sumgai He, he, he. Well, that's another friend's Tele. He took the photo while I was visiting him in Ibiza. I have used my strat as an avatar before and just felt like a change.... maybe I'll use the worn out maple neck from my strat next time....LOL. I'm not sure I understand your comments regarding pix and sound files. AFAIK all the files are hosted by TTM. Facebook embeds as do Soundcloud and a few other sources. I used the system I did because I didn't want this stuff was too lazy to load it on a storage server, as such. I've mentioned the Nutz House on TTM before, and had good responses, so yeah, the two sites kind of compliment each other, without taking anything away, If you know what I mean. TTM has recently been revamped, the old site was suffering from Elastoplast failures.... And yes, the alter ego of 'High Moon' is a strange one.... O. K. back on track (ya had me going there, Sumgai....) Actually, there is one other issue, which I forgot to mention, but I'll take it over to the luthier department, where it belongs.....
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 20, 2013 16:13:50 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on Oct 20, 2013 18:08:52 GMT -5
Nicer would be if the TwoTrackMusic forum actually displayed either the genuine articles or at least linked to them... I'm not sure I understand your comments regarding pix and sound files. AFAIK all the files are hosted by TTM. After further investigation, it turns out that TTM requires a viewer to become a registered user in order to see any attachments, such as pictures and sound clips. Comes down to a matter of how much a System Operator wants to be open to the public at large.... some do, some don't, and some choose part way between the two extremes. No sweat, it's all good. sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2013 7:08:53 GMT -5
So, I was thinking of painting it flourescent pink with a 6" brush, with lime green splodges on it. He, he, he..... tone-paint!!
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 21, 2013 10:41:47 GMT -5
So, I was thinking of painting it flourescent pink with a 6" brush, with lime green splodges on it. He, he, he..... tone-paint!! YEAH!!!! Groovy......... I'm not sure I understand your comments regarding pix and sound files. AFAIK all the files are hosted by TTM. After further investigation, it turns out that TTM requires a viewer to become a registered user in order to see any attachments, such as pictures and sound clips. Comes down to a matter of how much a System Operator wants to be open to the public at large.... some do, some don't, and some choose part way between the two extremes. No sweat, it's all good. sumgai Ah yes, I forgot.......... Duh! You'd have to be a member to see attachments, a new thing, sorry....... Since we now have a shop, I think the idea is that, while you are working on tunes, perhaps with a collaborator, the files are only for members. The file count gets pretty high over there, what with videos and tunes getting previewed. Actually, I'm waiting for my own ftp info. The host changed servers on me and didn't give them to me........... As soon as that is sorted I'll put them on a page of my site.
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Post by lunaalta on Oct 21, 2013 18:16:42 GMT -5
I finally got my ftp access back. They changed it on me....... Pics are now available @ my web site (sorry for the link, images are protected) I'll sort something for the sound file.......
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2013 1:50:11 GMT -5
nice binding. reminds me of "fender select" series.
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