oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 1:49:56 GMT -5
Hi!
I've been looking at the Earvana nut (or any compensated nut) for my current guitar build, since I've never been completely pleased with how my current guitars intonate (both regular nut and floyd), but I'm not sure if I understand this product correctly.
As far as I can see, this only helps correcting the pitch of the open string. As soon as you fret a fret, the nut will be out of play completely, right? Like, if I fret the 12th fret, it will always be the same note, even if I add a capo on the 5th fret for example (not regarding the extra tension the capo puts on the string) So If I understand this correctly, this will only help with chords involving open strings.
On the Earvana website (http://www.earvana.com/technology.htm) you can see a graph where they suggest that the pitch is improved across the whole neck. I want to beleive this, but I just can't see how!
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 11, 2013 2:19:34 GMT -5
There is a more indepth description of WHY it works here... www.earvana.com/technology2.htmSo, in order for it to work, you must know how to properly understand and do intonation and such, good guitars can generally be 'intonated' played well in tune, but there are always compromises. Nut intonation is to adjust for the 'streching' caused by fretting a note by altering the scale length of each string in accordance with the amount of 'stretch' that puts them slightly 'sharp' by 'bending' the note down nnot the fret. A typical 'trouble spot' is playing say and open position A chord x-0-2-2-2-0. The B string tends to play 'sharp' even though it is not open, often the G string too in this case. The C# on the second fret b string tends to alomst always play 'sharp' because there is a fair bit of 'bend' to push onto the fret (obviously you never want to push too hard, but still, pushing it down bends it!). The same principle applies to any fret on the guitar, to 'fret it' you have to push the string down to the fret, and so that act bends it. To anyone's ear, 'sharp notes' tend to be 'sour' and falt notes more acceptably 'mellow'...the guitar tends to be irritatingly 'sharp' as a rule compared to other instruments. The 'equal temperament notes themselves are 'sharp' between the ocatves, especially around the thirds, but all of them are a necessary compromise. The guitar though, has trouble with that,a nd again has a tendency to go 'sharp'... There are techniques around som of that...and a good guitar properly set up and intonated can well play decently and acceptably in tune. However the answer is YES ... it can make a difference, if you can already intonate the guitar and the guiar scale and fret placements are right. It is not 'perfect', no system is and as the whole western temperment a bit dogy anyway, it is acceptable and potentially an improvement. There are a range of 'systems' about, this is another...I was looking at using one myself on my last project in fact, but have not played one. My tele has an LSR which required to move the nut and I think I may inadvertently added in a bit of 'compensation' in that movement, it does seem to play more 'in tune' Ther are many makers who have their own formula of moving the whole nut, just that tiny bit more forward, it only needs to be the tiniest bit as you can see by what these things are. But, just remember, it requires that the frets and the scale lenth is right and you ahve a really good handle on intonating and set up, it's no 'instant cure without that.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 3:16:36 GMT -5
Thanks for a very good answer! I was not aware that it was the bending of the string that was the main problem, interesting! For the record, I've been playing guitar for almost 15 years, so I hope it's not my inability to play/tune/intonate the guitar that is to blame I was also considering an Evertune bridge for other reasons, and from what you are saying, this should have a similar effect on the "correctness" of pitch across the neck? Also, I would assume that combining an Evertune with a compensated nut would be at least pointless, and potentially a really bad idea?
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 11, 2013 5:59:23 GMT -5
I've not heard of the 'evertune' thing, I'd be wary of it myself and need to know more, afterall, look at those 'robot' gutiars and is going to hog a lot of body. Intersting, but... A really good guitar, seems to stay remarkably in tune and not sure exctly how this works...hmmm These days, I use locking tuners ... my latest having 18:1 hipshot griplocks and been very, very impressed... I also have locking tuners and fully floating trems and dont really ahve much if any problems with tuning... Plus, at times I want to 'fine tune' and adjust the guitars for particular tunings or keys, or developed idiosyncratic ways of playing to avoid some of the guitar's inherit tuning problems... Might just be me of course, generally I tune by ear... I am a bit of a stickler abut tuing though, but a good guitar tends to be stable... But then, I'm not playing under 'hot lights' or any of those kinds of things that might throw things out, not sure. Is tuning found to be a problem for you, or is an intonation thing?
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 7:13:23 GMT -5
Tuning stability is not the main problem, altough I'm tempted by the EverTune's promise to "hold tuning for months".
My main issue is intonation. For example, I can't seem to get E, G and D open chords to sound good, without tuning for one chord specifically. Those are usually the cords I use to "test" the tuning. Pulling some "jazz chords" far up the neck are also hard getting in tune while maintaining open chords in tune.
Just to be sure: the way I intonate is getting the open string and the 12th fret harmonic to be in tune at the same time. Maybe there are better techniques?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 8:17:24 GMT -5
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 8:19:07 GMT -5
Just to be sure: the way I intonate is getting the open string and the 12th fret harmonic to be in tune at the same time. Maybe there are better techniques?
You might take into account the 24th fret as well, also string action height, put them all in the mix and do a compromise.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 8:21:28 GMT -5
Yeah, that was the first product in the compensated nut category I think, don't know how it compares to Earvana.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 9:18:54 GMT -5
I will give that a go However, to return to my original quest: the search for the perfect guitar; which would be the ultimate configuration for a guitar if it's sole purpose was to get as close to perfect pitch on all frets as possible? If you get all nerdy and theoretical. And nothing that includes a battery or some digital postprocessing. Batteries are for flashlights! (Yes, that includes you, EMG )The candidates are: - Earvana (or other compensated nut) - EverTune - True Temperament neck Or any combination of the above EDIT: maybe this should be a separate thread?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2013 9:38:22 GMT -5
(Yes, that includes you, EMG ) funnily i got my most jazzy-ier/bluesy-ier tones, out of an EMG81/60 combo in an Ibanez ARZ800 single cut-away. Its the only guitar that makes me wanna play this music. Compared to Seymour Duncan livewires (the other active company), EMGs sound like the kings of vintage/jazz/blues tone. Anyway, that's my perception. I love EMGs clean. Best clean i had. Better than my strat/quack position or any other guitar i have played. My wife has noticed that as well. When you have the unarmed civilians making such comments it must hold some truth in it.
|
|
|
Post by ux4484 on Nov 11, 2013 9:54:24 GMT -5
Can't speak much for Earvana, but the the few I've picked up with them have not had that open A issue. I spent much time on my Cortez Tele on that exact problem, I did finally put a six saddle bridge on it to correct the problem. I had a Robot SG for a week... couldn't stay in tune. It was "close" but I always ended up tuning manually (what's the point, right?), it went back. Turns out Gibson had oodles of problems with the system. I can say, I've seen an Evertune in action on a US Tele at the Chicago Music Exchange, it wasn't for sale, it was a managers personal guitar. As it works via string tension, once set up it's freaky stable. he was playing open chords above the 12 fret... it sounded like a Piano (playing the "open" notes an octave down). He had it installed (They supply all the router drawings to do so, it's not for the weak of heart). It's probably cheaper to buy (or rent if possible) one of the LTD models ($1000usd) than to hack into a beloved axe on your own to try it. Too bad LTD chose to only appeal to shredders with EMG's in both models. There's two ways to set it up, just stable tuning, or stable tuning with bending available, but the "bending" setup seems to have a limit on the bend from some reviewers. I can imagine a few years from now, most studios will have at least one of these for recording... as they often tune lead players guitars to be in tune for the solo (when there is one nowadays) with the already recorded rhythm track.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 10:55:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the input ux4484! Nice to finally hear from someone who has actually seen one in real life Every negative comment about this bridge seems to come from people who hasn't tried or seen one in action. I sure hope it lives up to the reputation. The thing you said about the bends having a limit on an EverTune sounds weird though. I've watched a lot of demos and videos about the mechanics, and it seems, when the saddle maxes out, which it does when you bend, it should no longer affect the string at all. I think I will go for the EverTune, the fact that you can so esily make it behave like a normal guitar when needed (just tune up until the sadle maxes out), it feels like the pefrect system. Since I'm building my dream guitar from scratch, there is no compromise!
|
|
|
Post by b4nj0 on Nov 11, 2013 14:57:26 GMT -5
Worth a look... dates back to 1992. Buzzy Feiten may have already been working on his idea back then. It'd be no good for me because I wrench alternate tunings all the time, but the likes of Vai and I believe John Suhr both rate the positive effect on improving the guitar's tuning woes. Most of us just get on with it. Jeff Beck has the Earvana product on his Strat in the Ronnie Scotts show. www.mimf.com/nutcomp/index.htmI believe that Stephen Delft emigrated to New Zealand many years ago. He was a fine luthier from the East End of London. He helped me out with problems that I had concerning my Gordon Smith, (known with good reason as the British Gibson) that I purchased following one of his really excellent, thoughtful and well reasoned reviews in the long since defunct English magazine, "International Musician and Recording World". That was back in the late 1970s. I remember he told me at the time that Elton John commisioned him to build an acoustic for Kiki Dee. Stephen was (is?) an eccentric and colourful character. Yessir, I know I've drifted OT, the link is worth a look though... Try intonating a National and you might find a regular guitar a bit of a breeze! e&oe...
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 11, 2013 15:17:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the link! And the anecdote I might try that out on one of my other guitars!
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 11, 2013 18:29:47 GMT -5
Nut compensation has been around for a very, very long time. As for the bridge system, that's a lot of mucking about with alllan keys,a nd not ar all surethat it does what it says...I'll ahve to study it more perhaps when my internet connection goes over the 64kbps it's running on now.
Still, I am wondering what it is that you are hoping these things are going to address?
Jeff Beck uses the old style LSR roller nut I think you'll find ...his manipulation of intonation via the wammy bar and bends and such is unique, one of the few players that can actually play with those 'sharp' microtones ...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2013 1:38:29 GMT -5
Since I'm building my dream guitar from scratch, there is no compromise! Just one comment here : try to use the best woods available. However note that : a) High quality woods = absolutely no guarantee for good tone b) Low quality woods = a guarantee for poor tone Start with an inadequate foundation, and you will not be able to upgrade the instrument no matter how much money you invest on it. Also trying to go the "custom" way, might be a good idea. Carvin would be the most obvious choice.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 12, 2013 6:26:46 GMT -5
Since I'm building my dream guitar from scratch, there is no compromise! Just one comment here : try to use the best woods available. Bought the body blank from a swedish guitar parts dealer and as far as I can tell, it's a good piece. Here it is in it's current state, working on the belly cut and arm slope to get a nice curve, not quite there, but soon!
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 12, 2013 6:35:21 GMT -5
Still, I am wondering what it is that you are hoping these things are going to address? My goal is to have a guitar for studio recording where I don't need to re tune for every part I'm going to record. When the guitar is placed on top of other guitars, vocals and other instruments, it's very hard to get it sounding 100% in all situations, without having to tune specifically for the part that you are going to record.
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 12, 2013 11:41:59 GMT -5
Still, I am wondering what it is that you are hoping these things are going to address? My goal is to have a guitar for studio recording where I don't need to re tune for every part I'm going to record. When the guitar is placed on top of other guitars, vocals and other instruments, it's very hard to get it sounding 100% in all situations, without having to tune specifically for the part that you are going to record. Right. From what i've been able to read up so far, this 'system' would appear to be some kind of mechanical auto tune and takes a bit out of teh guitar to install and a lot of messing about to get right...that alone tends to put me off... But, tuning is something that tends to need constant adjustment when playing with other instruments, but the nature of how other instrumentas are tuned and what works. It is by nature tha the guitar plays a bit more 'out of tune' than others and so will often need a little adjustment. Often adjustment ot accomodate one key over another. This is certainly the case if you were to retune the guitar, but appears to be the case regarding registers...are you aware of how a piano is tuned from bass to treble? I ahve a feeling, from what little I've read' that this bridge concept, would make it really difficult to do any adjustments and hinder rather than help. Could be wrong. For certain, tuning stability is important, as is intonation and all other aspects. Yu can achieve that, locking tuners for instance provide amazing stability of tuning, even after installing new strings. High ratio tuners allow for finer adjustment. Thicker or more 'stiff' necks help too for stability. I'm not sure that this bridge system addresses the intonation problems that things like the earvana tries to address either. In very old times, the actual frets of early instruments were not fixed but could be adjusted. There are many systems out there for fretting to adjust or built for certain keys and such. Everything is a compromise to some extent,oone thing affects the others always and so a trade off. Sometimes adjustments need to be made, but from what I've gathered so far, this bridge system once set up, would seem to make that process tedious to difficult if not impossible to do as required and so, to me, would not be advantageous to the goal. To me the 'issue' is more about 'stability' that you are seeking, again could be wrong. But I'd look at it a bit more I think before commiting too hard and weigh up the pros and cons of such a contraption. I'll look into it a bit more now my computer connection has sped up and can see video again ~
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 12, 2013 15:09:55 GMT -5
My goal is to have a guitar for studio recording where I don't need to re tune for every part I'm going to record. When the guitar is placed on top of other guitars, vocals and other instruments, it's very hard to get it sounding 100% in all situations, without having to tune specifically for the part that you are going to record. To me the 'issue' is more about 'stability' that you are seeking, again could be wrong. As I mentioned, I'm looking for something that compensates for the guitars inherit problem with intonation. Even if the Evertune's main selling point is tuning stability, they are also claiming it helps "fixing" one of the inherit problems with guitars, that is the extra tension put on the string by pushing it to the fret. The best experience, according to VGS Guitars , is combining the evertune with a true temperament neck, which they claim makes the guitar "perfect". Have no idea how much truth lies in this though I don't know exactly how pianos are tuned, but I do know that it's not simply a matter of just tuning each key to a perfect pitch note to get it to sound good when playing across the keyboard. I guess this is the reason for the weird frets on true temperament guitar necks. But I can't say I'm down with the theory of this, I just know that the problem exists.
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 12, 2013 17:36:15 GMT -5
Ok, well now my connection is fast enough, when I get a bit of a moment if you like a little later to investigate and be more informed...
Sure, there are compensating necks and such of all kinds, but the reality that MUST be understood is that there is no PERFECT as the whole equal temperament sustem is inherintly 'out' and a 'trade-off' and teh guitar more than most instruments sufffers from intonation issues.
I'm watching this now for instance. For a start, there's so much distortion it's hard to actually hear anything. But, look at that huge hole in the back of the guitar!!!!
I always used to play a real old gibson LP and you could do huge bends without going out of tune and sound 'in tune' all over...a super heavy solidly made guitar...and lets face it, an ad-fomercial...
This video is from 'evertune'...
First thing that comes to mind are all the complaints about the fender trem system...hmmm
Sooo....it will compensate against finger vibrato, no?
At least this video has a clean sound you can 'hear' and actually shows you how the thing is adjusted with the keys...
Comparing it to a 'bigsby', perhaps one of the poorest bridge system in history for tuning stablity, is a bit OTT!
This one combines it with a 'true temperament' fretboard ...
hmmm...
At least it might take some of the initial irritatingly 'sharp' impact tht tendsto feature on a lot of players like this that are bending the strings just through string impact...
...
So clolour me skeptical on the compromises, which are significant, of such a system. If there are particular problems with tuning that you are encountering on a normal guitar, I'd like to know where those things come from. It could well ahve merit, but given the complaints many ahve with floating trems and all that, one wonders if this justoffers more of the same without the trem system in terms of feel and such. Bending is going to feel a bit weird with a delay before the bend takes, and more subtle vibrato should be impossible by the nature of the system. There is considerable routing required and that is a trade off in the guitar in many ways. It's certainly restrictive in terms of changing tunings which to me would be a problem. Understand also that sampled instruments are not always, often aren't, in tune themselves as they are sampled from real instruments.
For me, I think I'd find the compromsises to the guitar, but especially the technique and expressiveness a little too much of a trade-off...but I'll keep considering the concept. Perhaps others could advocate for it. It could produce recordings and performances that are too sanitised...who knows...
|
|
|
Post by ux4484 on Nov 12, 2013 17:44:43 GMT -5
IMO, it's a rythym players tuning system.
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 13, 2013 7:48:20 GMT -5
I think I've watched every video of the evertune that exists on the internet I hate to sound like a sales representant for this system, but this is what i think: - It seems just a little bit harder to tune than a floyd. If you tune like once a month, it wins in this category - The routing is just a bit bigger than a floyd. - If you want "full finger vibrato" you can just tune up to "zone 3" and it behaves like a normal guitar, in like 5 seconds All the cons are the same as with any floating bridge i think: hard to do alternate tunings fast (this is even worse on a trem), less wood in guitar body, probably less sustain One thing I'm still curious about, in theory, is this thing doing the same job as a compensated nut? To me it sounds like it's doing the same job, compensating for the extra tension put on the string by the finger.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2013 10:07:22 GMT -5
All the cons are the same as with any floating bridge i think: hard to do alternate tunings fast (this is even worse on a trem), less wood in guitar body, probably less sustain My Floyd Rose II Kramer 210 can do 10 seconds on high-E @17 fret without a sweat. I doubt you'll find many Gibson LP's that can do that. Rocky George of Suicidal Tendencies (IMHO the God of punk-funk-retro-hardcode guitarists) could do miracles with his RG and Universe Ibanez's, some natural harmonics clearly rang for more than 10-15 seconds (with tremolo use included).
|
|
|
Post by ux4484 on Nov 13, 2013 10:43:28 GMT -5
In zone 2, it's actually controlling the string tension, so no matter what you do it's not changing pitch. It's the mechanical equivalent of the Roland V or Anteres (synth) autotune Peavey is using (http://www.autotuneforguitar.com). I thought it would sound sterile (like the Roland and Peavey does), but on a Tele, it was chimey, and very piano sounding. Zone 3 sounded great as well, but some of the Stones riffs he was playing sounded a tad late (IMO)... But he had JUST got it, just like dealing with latency in digital effects or recording, I imagine you learn to compensate. My initial feeling was the same as yours... Gotta have, I'll never waste time tuning again. But reality creeps in and unless you are a session player, you realize there's little "need" for the hobbyist to own one. Supposedly there is a Trem version due in a year or so. Being so expensive/invasive this is truly one of those "wait and see" technologies. I hate to cut 1/3 out of the guts of a guitar and have no support a year later.
On a related note. I took my 8 year old Yamaha APX 5 out of the case yesterday after not being played for weeks... And it was perfectly in tune... Even after playing it for 20 minutes... With OLD strings.
A good setup goes a long way.
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 13, 2013 17:02:40 GMT -5
In zone 2, it's actually controlling the string tension, so no matter what you do it's not changing pitch. It's the mechanical equivalent of the Roland V or Anteres (synth) autotune Peavey is using (http://www.autotuneforguitar.com). I thought it would sound sterile (like the Roland and Peavey does), but on a Tele, it was chimey, and very piano sounding. Zone 3 sounded great as well, but some of the Stones riffs he was playing sounded a tad late (IMO)... But he had JUST got it, just like dealing with latency in digital effects or recording, I imagine you learn to compensate. My initial feeling was the same as yours... Gotta have, I'll never waste time tuning again. But reality creeps in and unless you are a session player, you realize there's little "need" for the hobbyist to own one. Supposedly there is a Trem version due in a year or so. Being so expensive/invasive this is truly one of those "wait and see" technologies. I hate to cut 1/3 out of the guts of a guitar and have no support a year later. On a related note. I took my 8 year old Yamaha APX 5 out of the case yesterday after not being played for weeks... And it was perfectly in tune... Even after playing it for 20 minutes... With OLD strings. A good setup goes a long way. Good post UX, I agree... It makes me wonder what tuning issues you have had before and why you might have had them. Tuning and intonation is very important to me. Most of my gutiars are remarkably stable. My Godin Seagull for instance, stays pretty much in tune and intonated, even with new strings after the second tuning and I use altered tunings as well and often slack tunings (down to C) ... on my electrics too with trems or the multituning 'trilogy' guitar too. All of these have locking tuners and most ahve graphtech or LSR nots and a sraight string pull over them. A stable guitar is also pretty important, if your neck is too thin and flexy, that can sometimes be an issue, could look into a neck that's got reinforced carbon rods if a really thin neck is required. For recording, it could even be wise to record the strings and check the tuning of the next track to that frequently, or check against a good tuner, perhaps in the recording software. Often people rely a little much on electronic tuners as well I think...I've been tempted to try soemthing like the earvana from time to time, but find with a really good action I really don't have the issues to any great extent, so it is not that necessary. There are many benefits to locking tuners to consider. Super fast string changes, no windings to loosen around the posts (a prime culpute) and stings held tight...they are not just for trem type guitars. The nut is also a place where strings can hang, along with thingslike string trees. The LSR is good and can eliminate string trees, if you dare (requires some fretboardcutting to move it forward) but only really necessary for trem guitars, graphtecs though are decent, though a good nut is generally enough. Some people also use high jubo frets, and these can oftencause more problems because the string is often pushed not only to the fret, but bent over them. It can take a bit of technique to only push as hard as one needs and that takes practice as many players tend to push too hard, causinghand fatigue, loss of speed and flexibility and tuning problems. Playing 'too hard' tends to deform the string by the pick just before the note is struck as well, especially for players who use very light strings. All these factors should be considered... But yes, while I really like new technologies, I honestly do, I'd be wary and at this stage, everything is 'hype' andthere are significant compromises for a 'problem' that really should not be that big a deal on a great guitar, set up and player ~
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 15, 2013 1:36:27 GMT -5
Ok, I'm gonna give my best effort to intonate this thing and record some samples, then maybe you can help and listen to judge if my setup is poor, my guitars are crap, or if I'm just plain hallucinating When you are talking about LSR, are you refering to the roller nut or the company that makes headless guitars?
|
|
|
Post by 4real on Nov 15, 2013 3:18:00 GMT -5
Ok, I'm gonna give my best effort to intonate this thing and record some samples, then maybe you can help and listen to judge if my setup is poor, my guitars are s t, or if I'm just plain hallucinating When you are talking about LSR, are you refering to the roller nut or the company that makes headless guitars? I happened to see this morning, may be interested, PRS talks aobut things like tuning (especially in this auto-tuned world) and a quick aside how they 'moved the nut' and frets a paper thickness of acuracy ~ Oh, LSR is the wilkinson designed roller nut, often found on fender guitars. Jeff Beck has been using the older 'larger' style for some time ~ Above is my tele with khaler trem. Locking staggered schaller tuners and LSR not, no string trees and a straight pull over the nut to avoid nay hang ups in the nut. The LSR also has tiny black rubber 'dampers' behind the pair of tiny ball bearings which allows for not having string trees. One 'cool thing' about the LSR is that they are screwed on and so 'shimmed' with tiny little metal shims and so, adjustable. The down side is that the nut slot has to move forward... This guitar has a floating trem and it is possible that the 'slot' was moved a little forward, by the tiniest amout. Perhaps the spring loaded bridge aids similar to the 'evertune' as this guitar intonated very well and plays in tune. A roller nut like that would likely be over kill on a hard tailed bridge, but certainly something like a graphtech is advisable as bending notes by necessity (unless you have a lock nut) slip and can hang, similarly a straight sting pull and roller trees to avoid string pull are all advantageous. Locking tuners have been a god-send. The schallers have been great on my electrics, I've tried a more budget version and not been so hapy. The 'griplocks' from hipshot though have been by far the best, with a higher ration 18:1 and incredible stability you can get very fine tuning (and of course, changing strings is super fast and no hassle at all). I have graphtech nut and bridge and straight string pull aon the seagull. The hipshots come with a fairly wide range of alternate 'buttons' as well, I 'customised' mine with black buttons and was pleased to find thay have a nice semi mat 'grippy' kind of finish, but they have all kinds and tradtional versions... As you can see, there are less than one wind around the posts to tune to standard tuning, the higher stretchier strings, perhaps a tad over. These winds can be a real problem with tunings and the 'lock' will not let the string move withiin teh holes. The posts are a fair bit 'shorter' as there needs to be no room for winds and so, the pressure over the nut is similar to that of a normal tuner with a lot of winds. ... There are a whole range of things that are at play, bot with the setup and the player. For instance, there is the 'bend' of the string down to the fret, with a lowish action, this is fairly minimal, more noticable near the nut due to the geometry. However, if a player pushes donwn further than required, and ahs jumbo frest say, the string can be pushed down hard over the fret and cause significant amounts of 'sharpness' in the process. I played an old LP for about 20 years exclusively, as at the time 'jumbo frets' were the 'bomb' I had it refretted and some other work on it professionally. As many feel, I wanted that 'ultimate guitar' and so, followed all kinds of 'lore' of teh era (70') like brass nuts and such, even though it is a real gibson. I recall having all kinds of issues with tuning/intonation, entirely caused by being a young player that played too hard. I had to retrain myself to ensure it did, and in that respect kind of glad I did. But, did regret taking out the original 'fretless wonder' original little close fretting as well. Another problem with jumbo frets, is that they generally ahve a lot of area and less of a 'point' to the crowns, even if they are, the can wear down fairly fast and so afftect intonation and other aspects. There are some advantages to 'jumbos', your fingers tend not to touch the board if you control the technique and vibrato is a lot easier (though, the evertune would seriously mess with that at all, perhaps my main criticism of it, for me)... These days, as on my new guitar above, the frest are relatively small and thin and although one could push the strings into the fretboard,I dont. SO, this is perhaps something to look at...if the crown is not where it should be where the string breaks over, due to poor fretting or wear, with jumbos that can effectively move the frets! If the technique is such, or the strings too light, this too could cause tuning problems. Neck stability too can be a big problem. (this can include the neck pocket and attachment on bolt on guitars). A gibson LP has tremendous stability, quality maple with a rock hard ebony board mounted to it, clued join and the upper side supporting the join significantly. Remeber that hte 'truss rod' is there to adjust it, it does not provide stability, it acts as a countering 'spring' tothe tensions of the strings and si not attached but on heach end. There are necks that are reinforced with carbon rods, or even carbon necks, that can create enormous stiffness, and so tuning stability for neck 'flex' ~ Sound clips may well be good, but very hard to tell which or which combination of things are in play with it. Perhaps a few pics of the details. Do you find soem guitars better than others? Perhaps analyse your technique, se how light you can play, try pushing hard and hearing that difference in pitch. There is no real 'perfection' though there is no doubt that some guitars and setups and players play more in tune. It's always been important for me, more so now with the kind of music I play. It is of particular importance with chords and harmony and multiple lines, which most of what I do these days is. It is vital to have 'perfect' tuning and intonation, or as best I can achieve and so looked for a guitar with those features, and continue to work further on that (locking tuners, internal top 'truss' etc) Most of my guitars have had a particular accent on tuning stability, you can find a few in the gallery here, my LP has a graphtech nut and designed string rollers to pull the strings straight through the nut. Some guitars like my strat and the 'multi-tuning trilogy jazz-box' thing required roller trees for damping in the most part, despite the locking staggered tuners. It could be that the kind of music you play perhaps does not need that degree of attention. But then again, it could well be that you are only now just hearing the tuning things because the recording process and objectively hearing it, has brought it to light. Not that many spend a lot of time 'practicing' tuning and playing in tune, but this is just as important, especially if there is harmony, multiple parts or playing with other instruments that are perfectly in tune (more common these days with synth type instruments)... These days, I pay more attention than ever and 'good enough' is not anymore. If you insist on playing an in-tune guitar then you will really notice it and make any small adjustments as required, before you play. Generally, my guitars are remarkably stable, even my tele that was my main guitar for a while and was transported in a soft case/bag with the floating trem fully depressed. As long as the tuning pegs were not moved, it springs back perfectly in tune, ad would stay that way for weeks! Pay attention to strings too, worn or cooroded strings certainly has a detrimental effect on tuning and intonation... Hope some of that gives some ideas. A lot of time, the tuning makes a huge difference to others hearing your playing, it is what most people generally 'hear' and shows up those that sound good/great from those that don't to a lay person. Recording can give you the opportunity to hear things, muc like an audience would, as you are hearing the sound only and not so concerned about playing it or how fast you can go and all that kind of thing. It is definitely something worth while to aspire to, but it does not need some new gadget to achieve, there are plenty of session players that play in tune, every note, all the time , without it ~
|
|
oskob
Rookie Solder Flinger
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
|
Post by oskob on Nov 15, 2013 6:17:49 GMT -5
Wow, big post Thanks, many interesting ideas. I to try to think about my playing in regards of pushing the strings just enough, and not push them sideways, but I can't say I'm having a practice routine for it. Maybe I should! I also get the "records have been recorded before equipment X existed and still sound good" argument. This is also true for many not-so-great guitarists. So I don't know... but I don't just wanna accept the fact and move on. Here is a little clip I threw together to demonstrate the problem: I was really annoyed that the low string couldn't be intonated 100%, because the saddle hit the bridge. Maybe because I tune low and use thick strings. Funny thing is I have the same problem with my 7-string, you would think it should be built for a low and thick B string I'm tuned in D standard with .11 to .56 strings, DAddario. (The strings are "optimized for D tuning") The strings were put on a couple of days ago, so they have been "played in" an all that. I can see no notable wear on the frets, it's not a new guitar, but I would say "as good as new". Also trying to push as lightly on the strings butt possible. The tuner is a bit wobbely, it's not pixel perfect in the middle at all times, but it is soooo sensitive so this is practically impossible with this tuner (Pod HD). You said you wanted some detailed photos, but I don't know what you wanna see It looks like every other american standard tele Let me know what you think, should we burn the guitar, the tuner or the player? You asked
|
|
|
Post by newey on Nov 15, 2013 6:31:58 GMT -5
oskob-
The YouTube vid you posted comes up as "private", I can't view it without a password. You need to make the thing "shareable" or whatever. . .
I think 4real was speaking of close-up photos of the nut, tuners and bridge, to look for points where a specific problem exists.
|
|