Earvana, why does it work?

[oskob]

Nov 15, 2013 6:31:58 GMT -5 newey said:

oskob-

The YouTube vid you posted comes up as "private", I can't view it without a password. You need to make the thing "shareable" or whatever. . .

I think 4real was speaking of close-up photos of the nut, tuners and bridge, to look for points where a specific problem exists.

Wops! Now fixed.

Ok, I'll come back with some photos!

[newey]

I hadn't chimed in on this topic so far, but I just now watched all those videos. As 4real said, color me skeptical.

First, I question whether this thing is at all suitable for a DIY install. It's one thing for ESP to build a guitar specifically for this bridge, and quite another thing for the average guy to hog out all that additional wood. So, I'd say add the cost to have this professionally installed to the cost of the bridge, that's realistically what you're looking at.

Second, no one talks about durability. This works by having a single pivot point at the saddle which is constantly adjusting tension as one plays. Moving parts, even if made of hardened steel, will wear over time. Over how long a period? Who knows?

Third, while it may go a long time without adjustment, when one does need to adjust it, one needs a special tool for the fine tuners. Where is that tool going to be when one needs it? I suppose someone will design a holder for it eventually, just like Floyd players have the Allen key clipped to the back of the headstock.

Also, in the past we have discussed how the "tremoLeo" springs on a Strat do contribute to the sound; block your Strat trem and remove the springs and it will sound different. This thing has 6 of 'em! On the "clean" video with the Tele, I swear I could hear a bit of that "Strat spring" sound. It sounded good, certainly, but nonetheless different.

Now of course, I'm a dinosaur. Growing up, one had to tune by ear. I still think of electronic tuners as these wonderful new things we have . . .

Back in my garage band days, we'd all tune to the bass, since it generally stayed in tune better. It was, as the saying went, "close enough for Rock 'n Roll".

[oskob]

The sound of the springs is a thing I didn't consider before, good point. I always put plastic straws in my floyds to dampen the springs. Worst thing when you strike a chord and then mute it quickly, but the trem springs keep ringing.

Definitely something to consider. 

Were you able to watch the video btw? 

[4real]

I just watched the video and considering things, There is a lot in the mix here, the whole guitar pitched low is really likely to cause problems.

You are likely to have problems with a short scaled guitar with a 'slack tuning' like that...

Do you always tune with a tuner and rely on that?

Try tuning in multiple ways. For instance, tune the open D string to the d note, 3rd fret b string. Check and fine tune in octaves and look all over the neck but especially those low chords if you play open forms a lot.

There should not be any sideways movement unless you are intendingto bend a string. Trythis exercise, pressthe string down on the fret as hard as possible and repeat picking a note and see if you can hear it faltten as you release pressure, release till there it just unfrets' a little harder is all that is required. Chords are obviously harder to ahve that kind of presure control on each string but more necessary. See how light you can play with the left hand. Picking if too hard will also bend the string with the pick just before release, we hear the initial sound (attack) to detirmine pitch, if you dig in hard (especially with aheavy pick) you are going to hear the note start a little 'sharp'. A tuner is not going to be able to detirmine the pitch till the note settles down, it will be confused by the initial 'burst' of the attack (especially as this part of teh note is harmonic rich and harmonics are a little out of tune due to the 'equal temperament' of the fretting). Play alternating pairs of notes agaisnt their unison or octaves, such as the D string and B string 3rd fret. Move the ocaves on the same pairs higher, does this help?

It could be something to do with the nut or other factors. If the nut is too high for instance, there could be excessive bending of the string at the lower frets...

If that saddle really needs to go back more due to the lower tuing, perhaps consider why, quite likely it might be given the thick strings and low tuning. If they are individual saddles and there is enough 'thread' in them, quite possibly one might be able to grind the back of the saddle a few mm, perhaps the adjustment screw too, and so achieve moving things back a bit.

I play with open tunings a bit these days, so my E string will often go down to D or even C, on a short scale (mine is even shorter, more gibson like thana fender) it is even harder to get pitches right and one does needto pay special attention to the playing technique, even compromise the tuning a little so that it plays in tune all over...

I also developed techniques and chord forms to try and avoid problem spots, like the lower frets of the b string. You might notice on some of these 'wave fret' adjusted things, the B string is especially problematic and 'adjusted 'flat'...these can become a part of both your 'style and sound'...

For instance, the open A chord x-0-2-2-2-0 is notorious. I tend to use this form x-0-7-6-5-(0) or 5-x-7-6-5-(0) using teh thumb 'hendrix style. This gives me more space by leaving out that low 'fifth' (E note, d string 2nd fret) and even doubling the higer E for more of a 12 string effect if desired, more jangle. Generally you will find this to me more pleasant to your ear.

It definitely 'sounds' as if this is the main problem. The two D's in the d chord were out, the same with the two D's when you played the G chord (with the D doubled on the B string)...

You might consider, tuing the b string just a 'tad' flat to compensate, but i's a tricky thing as say in a C chord, the low c (A string) and the c on the b string are both 'bent' over the nut to the fret and octaves 'must' sound in tune...hmmm...

I wonder too if the thick strings are not out with bigger frets, hard to see what they are, are they 'jumbo'? It could be the crowns are worn quite flat and so effectively movign the effective fret, hard to tell...perhaps try and work on the intonation a little more, don't rely on teh tuner completely, always check with the ear and against other notes, not just the adjacent string and then chord forms...

Ok, middle of the night here, will think a little more, guitars are made accurately by machine and tend not to be inheritly "bad", but you are asking more from it. What few come with though is a proper 'setup' and with low tuings and such, you are moving out of it's design spec. It is possible obviously, such as with my slighter shorter scaled acoustic, to tune lower, (12-54 strings) but you need to be even more careful with technique and I've had similar problems with the whole guitar tuned down to D...

[4real]

Just a few more thoughts ~

How are you adjustments? could be a part of the problem and not intonated well...

Here is a vid re tuning...



and




Have you a 'capo' (you could make one rom a pencil and rubber band at a pinch)...tune guitar with the capo on the first fret, this remeoves the 'nut' from the equation, do all these chords sound right?

[4real]

You might find theis 3 part intonation sereis instructive and illuminating to some issues that might happen. Be sure with the 'capo' thing, especially with jumb frets, you have soemthing that wont push hard, the one in this vid is adjustable. If that is not possible, us soemthint under the strings to stop that happening ~



SOmething like an 'earvana' also helps with some f these issues, however, your setup, tuning and string gauge may require some other kind of 'adjustment'

It is possible to DIY this kind of thing, adding very thin material in front of the nut to bring the break over forward a tiny bit and intonating to suit. However, work to get the guitar to play as best as possible without first, as it certainly should work better than that without any 'novelty' gadgets and such, clearly others can got it. It is likely a whole heap of combinations of issues...

Intonation and tuning is not something to be taken for granted or underestimated as to how others are going to hear what you sould like. Many, many ahve done little if anything on this aspect, yet you simply can't sound good if things dont know how to play in tune, just not possible.

The more you play an in tune guitar and have practiced how to get it to play in tune ~ your tolerence and sensitivity to being in tune will greatly increase. Make a pact not to be lazy and play 'good enough' in tune, make that the first thing you do before you play anything on it. If your entire practice session is taken up with learning this, so be it, it is one of the most important skills one can learn and many, many benefits if you take it further...plus how the guitar works, it's limitations and ways around them...

A 'light touch' will avoid injury, give you increased stamina to play for hours without pain, flexibility to reach more adventurous chords and avoid 'hand locking' so making changes smoother, and play faster. If you play with jumbo frets, very necessary control...and of course, be in tune...

But, there are always 'limits' but I wouldn't want something that compromises expressiveness (and killing vibrato and delayed bends is a serious compromise IMHO), there are ways to play around them and certainly there real issues that need to be addresssed in terms of getting the instrument to play them. You ahve chosen to make it even more difficult with the choices of low tuning and heavy strings on a relatively 'short scale' instrument, that is always going to be probematic I suspect, though not impossible I'd imagine, but everything is going to matter 'more'...including technique.

There are merits to the compensated nuts and 'tuning offset tuning systems' like the buzz fretlin and others. Everything isa little 'offset' to sound more in tune. I've been tempted a few times and even messed with the DIY things a little, but generally I've been able to get a guitar to work with the right balance of intonation and balance of different aspects and technique to get the things to play right.

Hope that gives you something to work on. If that low D saddle needs moving, perhaps post a pic, it's generally possible to shorten the back of individual saddles and perhaps the adjustment screw also, to get this to work, as long as there is still enough thread in it for the screw...

[Deleted]

in my daughter's short scale, strung up with 9's, it is extremely easy to go out of tune. Low tunings require heavier gauges. You could follow dimarzio's string tension tables for reference.

[oskob]

I have seen those video (I've been struggling with this problems for all my 15 years as a guitarist...!) and tried everything. And yes, I assure you, I am aware that the note goes sharp if you press hard on the frets.

I tune mostly by ear, the tuner in the video was minly to "prove" that the tuning was accurate.
The tuning method I have had most success with is tuning the open strings, no fretting at all. But as I mentioned earlier, this needs focus and a perfectly silent enviroment.

But to the big news: the capo thing actually worked!
I got much better over all tune with all open chords. The only string that bothers me just a little bit is the "g" string, but that will always be the bastard string of the guitar, I guess

So what does this tell me, that all my nuts are bad, on all 5 guitars? I gave my Chapman ML-1 guitar the same treatment as my fender, but with regular tuning with .10 string, and I get just as bad result there as with the fender (without capo).

So are the nuts of these consumer grade guitars always this bad, or did I just have bad luck? 

[4real]

Well, there you go, the nut would seem to be a big part of the problem, not all I suspect, how do you do your intonation>? What kind of action do you prefer?

So are the nuts of these consumer grade guitars always this bad, or did I just have bad luck?

Nope that's standard issue with most guitars. The setup for a nut to do right is a pretty labour intensive job and a lot if not most just stick a stock nut on there. All guitars generally need a setup by a competent and dedicated guy that knows what they are doing, or, you have to become that 'guy'

That LP trem guitar of mine, not only took all afternoon and many test fittings to get right filing the back of the graphtec nut to be 'just right' (you can not risk going too far)...you generally can't pay people to do that, even on high end gutiars.

One of the reasons I went with the Godin, which I bought direct from the distributer here, is because I could alos get a new custom cleartone strings (11-52 but play 12-54 now) but a pro setup from a guy that used to do Tommy Emmanuels setups, and this on a sub A$1200 guitar. There are manufacturers, such as PRS that have made a reputation for attention to such detail, but we are talking very expensive guitars. Many great sounding guitars are 'great' largely because they feel and ply well in tune.

Any new guitar though, will typically require a setup to the player and the sting and in your casetuning as a rule. It is well to be practical and learn to do that and other maintence as a rule yourself. As I live on an island far away from anyone who could do that kind of thing and, such people are in short supply, and because I like to build the things, it is a necessary part of being a 'player'. Even a cheap guitar can really impress. I did some work on a guitar that I sold recently for $80 and the setup was what sold it to him, the thing did end up playing well and it showed when he picked it up ~

It makes one wonder why the guitar shops are not doing more of this kind of thing customers are so thin on the ground. While looking for months in stores to find the right guitar brand for me, all of the examples, some up to A$2000 were not set up and some even rusty strings!! When questioned they said they would 'change the strings' buta set up is a lot more than that. Although buying direct online, I did not get the chance to choose the model, they picked out of the ones they had in teh wherehouse the best top they could find and really did a nice job on the 'setup' and the strings were great (but too expensive for me to continue with) and all at no cost.

At the very least, this sounds like quite a bit of the problem. If replacing the nut, perhaps giving evana a try is worth it, though I wouldn't know with a dropped tuing and thick guages how that would work, but likelyan improvement. Though, one could first try to adjust the nut or replace it, Graphtechs are good and well slotted, you file off the back but takes patience and a lot of fitting and filing and returning...at least a dozen times last I did it.

It makes one wonder why someone has not gone further with adjustable nuts. Although the LSR is a big commitment (have to chop a bit out of the fretboard in front of the slot, so not reversable) at leas the thing is screwed on and comes with shims to get it just right and works briliantly for trem guitars with locking tuners

Sounds like there's a project for you then, if it palys in tune with the capo, perhaps get or make some feeler guages and lower the nut bit by bit till it pretty much matches the effect of the capo. Be aware that those thicker guages and lower tunings do need a bit of room to vibrate, but since the nut is a fixed point, it should not be excessive.

And yes, ahve a look at the other guitars, do the capo thing to see if it has a similar problem/fix...

Sorry if I sounded pedantic about the tuing issues, but these posts hang around for the future, I appreciate that you have been playing a fair while.