SSH with series combinations

[zjokka]

I kicked out the Robert Cray Custom Shop single coil I had in the bridge, it was too shrill. There are 2 Texas Specials in my strat and they keep me switching to positions N and N+B.

I did have this Lil 59 (neck version) lying around, so I really want to try it. I was looking at this diagram because I really want to keep the series possibilities with the single coils:

www.guitartechcraig.com/techwire/tech18.jpg

I really don't care about coil split at such, but from what I've read it seems advisable in combo's with bridge.

I'm also curious how the humbucker in parallel sounds.

When I started looking I expected to find more diagrams for this setup, and really want to explore what I could do with 2 or three push pulls. There's also a super switch in the drawer that's waiting to be put to proper use.



Any advice on the SSH setup, ?

ZJ

[Mike Richardson]

The Duncan Strat-sized humbuckers tend to sound extremely thin in single-coil mode. The one exception I've found is the Hot Rails, and that's only some of the time. I have a pair of Cool Rails in a guitar now. They're very similar to the Lil' '59, but not quite as bright. They work very well with parallel coils, so I'd expect your pickup would, too. As for the series stuff, I've never done that mixing singles and humbuckers, so I can't provide any info on that subject, other than to say that you WILL get hum from the combination. That may not be a problem for you, though.

[zjokka]

Thanks Mike,

If I put the whole humbucker in series with the middle pu that would still be humcancelling, right? I also wanted to use the bridge and neck combo, which will do fine if I only select the right coil of the humbucker to go with the neck pu.

I'm really looking for a way to combine:

- switching for series HB to parallel HB
- the right coil split to do the N + B or N x B in humcancelling mode
- the at least also N x M - which I had before and sounded really right with my Texas Specials

I'm also curious to learn more about that 4 pole 5 way superswitch (I have one) and understand it in such a way that I could wire up my favorite sound in the most economical way.

ZJ

[UnklMickey]

the whole HB by itself is hum-cancelling.

but when you add the middle SC, that throws things out of balance. you'll get less hum than with just the SC alone, but i'd prefer to refer to that as reduced hum, not hum-cancelling.

those superswitches are "powerful". by that i mean one switch can accomplish a number of different functions all by itself.

if you're not bogged down by using one of the sections for switching tone pots, you get 4 ganged, 5 position switches.

just layout what you want each position to do. it's possible that one of the members already has a diagram drawn to do that or something close to it.

you may want to use 2 push-pulls to do the A, B, A+B, A*B on the HB.

then use the superswitch to do whatever combination of N,M,B - single, series, or parallel arrangement you want for the 5 positions.

[UnklMickey]

Johan,

in my last post, i may have "oversold" the virtues of the superswitch.

make no mistake, with 4 poles, there is a ton that it CAN do.

but unless you are willing to shunt coils and/or leave "antennas hanging from hot" (i'm not willing), there are some limitations.

one of the most straight-forward applications would be to use 2 of the poles for the "hot" of 2 of the pickups, and the other 2 poles for the hot and "cold" of the third. this allows use of all three pickups in quite a few configurations, with the following limitations:

• the third pup is the only one that can have the phase inverted.
  
• the third pup is the only one that can be in series with one or both of the first two.
  
• series/parallel is still possible
  
• severe limitations are placed on what can be done with the 2 tone controls.
  

i still think it's a great choice for many applications. i just didn't want to leave you with the impression that it can do everything.

U.M.

[zjokka]

thanks for info and self-critique, all very worth reading.

It's beginning to dawn what I want in this config. If I understand it right, the super switch allows easier access to some non standard settings, but without a switch of some sort of course you cannot expand your palette of sounds.

a) One master volume, one master tone, one Spin-a-Split for the bridge humbucker
b) Pushpull on volume to put neck pickup in series with whatever is selected on the 5-way
c) something else still.. like switching the humbucker from series to parallel. I don't know and cannot tell whether this can be combined with the spin a split.

d) If I replace my last normal pot with a push pull I could add a phase switch still. Like this www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/series_split_par_w_phase.html . I would have the split humbucker then with spinasplit.

Can it be done or am I nuts? Anyway, again the problem boils down to the same: if I find different mod that I want to combine, I cannot tell which switch you put first, in this case, do I take the pickup leads of the humbucker to the the above two swithes (series-parallel then phase) and then to the spin a split or reverse.



there should be a logical way of figuring this out... I hope

ZJ

of course, spin a split was also discussed in another thread,

guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1130866122

[UnklMickey]

zjokka said:

...c) something else still.. like switching the humbucker from series to parallel. I don't know and cannot tell whether this can be combined with the spin a split.

...Can it be done or am I nuts? Anyway, again the problem boils down to the same: if I find different mod that I want to combine, I cannot tell which switch you put first, in this case, do I take the pickup leads of the humbucker to the the above two swithes (series-parallel then phase) and then to the spin a split or reverse....

switching between having the HBs coils in series or parallel with each other would be complicated with the spin a split. it's designed around having the coils in series.

you would need to defeat the spin-a-split when in parallel mode on the HB.

putting the phase switch first would change which of the HB coils would be controlled by the spin-a-split.

putting it last would require a slight change to your drawing.

you wouldn't use ground as a tie point for the low of the tone pot and the green of the pup. you would tie them together, but not to ground yet. the output of the phase switch would then determine if that node, or the black of the pup would connect to the high of the volume pot. whichever of the two that is not routed by the phase switch to the high of the volume pot, would be routed to ground.

[johan]

thanks, UM
I realized I better let that spinasplit go. but i still want to go with a some series wirings, so some weeks now I'm breaking my head trying to figure out how to wiring a third push pull in addition to
www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/series_split_par_w_phase.html

so I have, in a SSH config

pushpull vol control: add neck in series
pushpull tone control: reverse phase of humbucker
pushpull tone control: series/parallel on the humbucker

I also would like to have tone controls for neck and bridge, which is easy...

how do i wire the neck in series switch to make sure the tone control for the neck also works when adding neck in series?

I was trying to derive this from the STastic wiring diagram, but there the bridge is added in series with a dedicated tone control.

J

I was trying to derive this from the S Tastic wiring diagram,

[UnklMickey]

o.k., lemme get some clarification of the target.

you plan to use the stock configuration of a 5-way selector? (if so, what's your preference on the switching combinations)

you've figured out the HB "transmutations" with the SD drawing?

you want to add 1 more p-p switch to:

• add the neck in series with whatever else is selected by the 5-way when series is selected?
  
• OR
  
• add the neck in series with whatever else is selected by the 5-way when series is selected (only in the positions that call for the neck)?
  
  you want the neck tone activated :
  • whenever the 5-way selects the neck
    
  • whenever the neck series switch is in the series position
    
  • both of the above.
    
  
  

[johan]

you are too kind taking the time to help me out here... I could have been clearer.

The standard Fender 5-way switch should do the standard selections. However there a positions that I hardly use.
1 neck; 2 neck + mid; --> these stock combo's I really wanna keep
3 mid --> I hardly use this mid position,
4 mid + bridge HB --> I've read that it's better to coil split the HB in this position, but I already I opted for Series Parallel and reverse phase. Could I still have it automatically split in this position?
5 bridge humbucker alone.

I'm not sure I understand the question about the series wiring on neck pu. I think I want to neck to be added in series to any position selected on the five way switch, so I could also have N x M and N x B. Maybe you mean to ask if I select N + M and pull the pushpull, it should give N x M? Yes.


The two tone control should be dedicated to neck and bridge, so when neck is active (alone, series or parallel), the tone control should be active too. The same goes for the bridge tone control.

I started drawing this but at a loss as how to wire the negative leads from the hb and M pu with regard to the series switch...


once more, thanks so much
j

[UnklMickey]

your question on position 4:

i haven't thought it all the way through, but i don't think this is likely to be possible with the stock 5-way. (maybe with a 4pole superswitch).


i think i understand your targets now. just one more question:

if for instance you are in position 4 or (5) , with the neck switch pulled,
do you want:

• M+B . . . (B)
  
• or
  
• (M+B)xN . . . (BxN)
  

[johan]

unklmickey said:

if for instance you are in position 4 or (5) , with the neck switch pulled,
do you want:

• M+B . . . (B)
  
• or
  
• (M+B)xN . . . (BxN)
  

I would like the neck to be added in series, especially in the 4 and 5 positions. Like this:

Pulled:
4 = N x (M+B)
5 = N x B

Pushed: (stock)
4= M+B
5= B

I will try to make a drawing tonight, might be easier

thanks
Johan

[UnklMickey]

johan said:

...I will try to make a drawing tonight, might be easier...

i'm gonna guess you're still getting stuck on working out the details of this wiring.

a dpdt fall short of the task.

you'll need at least a 3pdt to pull this off.

also leaves a dead spot when neck only is selected on the 5-way, and neck in series is selected.

[thenewguy]

Aren't those wires from the pickups that are connected to the green + thing wrong. Won't that make alot of hum when the other end of them isn't connected. Won't that be like an antenna.

I've never seen a Bass control like that before. I can't understand how it could work. Could you explain it?


Thank you,

Joey

[johan]

Thanks all for your comments. I sorta let this thread go, as I don't plan to solder one more wire unless I know what I'm doing.

I got tremendous help from some people, helping me thru the wiring of two guitars, but I'm getting embarrassed letting other people do the work.

I've already wired up the humbucker thru two pushpulls for series/parallel switching and out of phase switching of the humbucker. Did that according to the seymour duncan diagram.

www.seymourduncan.com/support/schematics/series_split_par_w_phase.html

Now all I want to do is
-add a third pushpull to put the neck in series with whatever is selected on the 5way switch (like is done to the bridge pickup in John Atchley's Strat Lover's wiring). He achieves this by using only one side of a DTDP pushpull:


In that way, he can use the other side for tone controls:



And that's what I want, because I want to have a dedicated neck tone control that works in both parallel en series situations.

UnklMickey,

Why Oh why won't it work? Why will there be a dead spot when neck only selected? Before I had Deaf Eddie's mod for series, and it didn't leave a dead spot! Moreover, with the pushpull up, I got neck only in both 1 and 2 positions, but once with and once without tone control, or with the two different tone controls, cannot tell really. Anyway 2 different sounds from neck only.




Crunchy,

thanks but cannot really make out much. Could you specify what the switches do exactly?

thanks
j

[UnklMickey]

johan said:

Thanks all for your comments. I sorta let this thread go, as I don't plan to solder one more wire unless I know what I'm doing.

I got tremendous help from some people, helping me thru the wiring of two guitars, but I'm getting embarrassed letting other people do the work. ...

my dear friend Johan,

not building until you know what your doing (and what the result will be), well that's just plain smart.

and don't be embarassed about other people getting involved in your projects. that's the whole point here.

discussing the merits and pitfalls of various designs, then allowing them to morph into better versions is why we do this.

but as with any "design by committee" endevour, there will arise differing approaches, each with it's own degree of merit. the builder must decide which design most closely meets his criteria in terms of simplicity, functionality, intuitive layout, and "cleanliness".

UnklMickey,

Why Oh why won't it work?

Yes, Oh yes it will.


BUT,

(seems like there's always a big but in there somewhere.)


in the Strat Lover's wiring, you'll notice that when sw2 puts the bridge in series, and the bridge only is selected, the middle and neck pups are "antennas hanging from hot". in addition, in the bridge + middle position, the middle pup is shunted.


so it doesn't pass two of my standards for "clean" design:

• no coils hanging from hot (1)
  
• no coils shunted (2)
  
• no dead spots
  
• user friendly controls
  

_______________________________________________________________________________________

when i say something can't be done with a certain given set of parameters, it could mean at most, that the result will be total crap. OR as least, that it's "dirty". (or that i just haven't figured out how to do it yet!)

this one is just a bit dirty.

the good thing about it is there are no dead spots and the 5-way maintains it's original function. in general, it's simple and direct.

just because i wouldn't design it that way, doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't use it. you'll have to decide for yourself whats important to you.

now that we've discussed the merits and the pitfalls, you can make a more informed decision.


"...and that's a GOOD thing."

[johan]

thanks Unkl!

for these encouraging words. But I would at last like to learn some simple things like

1) How do you check in the diagram that a certain pickup works?
2) What is required for a certain pickup to be attenuable with a certain tone pot?
3) How do I know a series wiring works correctly in the diagram?


Then what's the disavantage of pickups "hanging from the hot" and what does this mean?exactly?

Are you talking about the fact that in the series wiring both negative leads are wired together? Isn't the Deaf Eddie wiring above a solution to that? If this is yes yes, I understand the problem.

J

[UnklMickey]

1) just pencil in a line across all the switches that are contacted in the particular combination that you are analysing. then follow the circuit. if a both ends of the pickup are properly connected, then that pickup works. analyse all possible combinations individually.

2) fender doesn't tone-cut pickups indiviually, they just switch in the pots according to what position the selector is in. that pot (or in n+m, both) control the amount of cut on all the pickups that are selected.

3) use the method i described in 1 above. if the signal path going from the output goes through pickups sequentially then to ground, then they are in series.


the disadvantage is an increase in hum.

i haven't proofread the deaf-eddie circuit yet. since it's a wiring diagram it'll take a bit longer to analyse.

EDIT:

i just looked over the deaf-eddie diagram.

it's essentially the strat lover without mods to the tone switching, and putting the neck in series rather than the bridge.

since the "-" wires of the bridge and neck are either both connected to ground, or both connected to the neck "+", there is no need to use both halves of the switch. they can both be connected one side, leaving the other free for whatever else you want to do.

if i am seeing this correctly, with the dpdt in series mode, the selector in neck only will give you just the neck pot. in the n+m position, you'll have neck pot and middle pot. (and the middle pickup will be shunted). same situation with "coils hanging from hot" as the strat-lover. only real difference is the fact that the neck is the "series" pickup rather than the bridge.

[thenewguy]

Crunchypotato, Thats like wow, awesome. I just looked at the controls and thought about the capacitor and the resistor as being paths to ground. I thought the capacitor would be a path to short out the highs. And the resistor would be a path to short out all frequencies by the same amount. I never thought about stuff echoing backwards! I'm learning electronics, but you sure know alot more than I do. You must be like a sceintist or something! I want to mod out my guitar to add the bass control. Do I need a SWR meter like they use on CB radios to find the place where the most reflected power is in the ground. Or can I just connect to any ground. And where do I get one of those special bobbin resistors that kills the high frequencies.

Thanks alot,

Joey

[thenewguy]

Hi Crunchypotato,

I hope you won't get mad at me for asking so many questions. This is going to be the first time I mod a guitar. I want to do it right! My Squier Strat isn't very expensive, but it is the only guitar I have right now. I don't want to make any mistakes. Having a bass enhancer would be real cool. My Strat already sounds better than any Gibson ever could. But my friend's Gibson does have better bass. If I could get just a little more bass it will just blow his Gibson away. I want to be sure I get the right resistor. You mean the wire-wound type that are big and cost about $20 dollars right. Not the cheap ones at Radio Shack and are $1 for 2 resistors. Those are made of carbon and I don't think that kind will kill any high frequency. Right?

Where did you learn all this! Do you have a degree in advanced Electronics, or do you work in a Sceince labratory? This subharmonic stuff is so cool. I want to learn alot more about it. Did you write a book about it? Or did you read about it in a book? I want to get that book! What is the title!

Thank you again,
Joey