triple EMG Select humbuckers

[ace77]

I found three older EMG Select humbuckers that I want to put into a project guitar. They each have 3 wires: ground, humbucker lead, and single coil lead. You can't disassemble them to rewire, so that's what you have to work with. Here's a link to some wiring options: www.sonic.net/~emgman/seldiag.html

I was thinking about an on/off/on switch for each, giving humbucker/off/single. I saw on Wolf's site that you can do a series parallel master switch for a two pickup guitar, but can you do it with a three pickup guitar? What about a phase switch, could you do that? In addition to the switches, I'll probably want a master volume and master tone. Thank you.

[ace77]

Anybody? Maybe I should clarify. Here's what I'm thinking:

3 EMG Select humbuckers, each wired to an on/off/on switch for humbucker/off/single
1 volume
1 tone
1 master series parallel switch
1 phase switch

So, are the master series parallel and phase options possible with these pickups, or am I stuck with the first three options I listed? Thank you.

[newey]

First off, as to the On-Off-On switches for each pickup, have you already bought the switches? This is easier to do with On-On-On switches.

It can be done with an On-Off-On, but I'm not sure it can be done in the order you specified. If the order can be Off-HB-SC, IOW, if "off" doesn't need to be in the middle, then it's a piece of cake with the On-Off-Ons.

An added DPDT switch (which could be a P/P pot on one of the V or Ts) would be able to give you some, but not all, out-of-phase options. For example, if you put the phase switch across the neck pickup, you would be able to have (-N)+B and (-N)+M, but not (-B)+M (which is sonically the same as (-M)+B ). If you put the phase switch on the mid pup, you'd get (-M)+B and (-M)+N, but not (-N)+B.

There are three possible OOP combinations of three pickups. One DPDT switch allows you to chose to have any 2 of the 3, but not all 3. To get all 3 possible OOP combos, you'd need a second phase switch.

I wouldn't let this worry me. One phase switch is enough, the N OOP with the Br (or its equivalent, Br OOP with neck)is going to be your best OOP sound. Br OOP with mid will be a weaker sound, so if it were me, I'd put the phase switch on the neck pickup and be happy.

As to series/parallel, a "system series" switch for three pickups can be done, but it requires a 4PDT On-On switch. These are a) expensive and b) bulky, and can cause fitment issues, depending on the guitar in question. A simple DPDT switch, however, can give you some series options, just not all the options. A DPDT could be used to put any one pickup (which one it operates upon is your choice) in series with one or both of the others. So, for example, a series/parallel switch on the bridge pickup could give you B X M, B X N, and B X (N+M).

However, the series/parallel options may present some issues when combined with coil-cut switching, especially since these are only 3-wire HBs. I'd have to look at that specifically.

What you are proposing, with the exception of the coil-cut switching, is similar to the modified Brian May series/parallel switching with phase that JohnH has worked out. However, the coil cut switching, and the fact that these are only three-wire HBs, makes the Brian May scenario problematic (and, quite likely, more than just problematic, maybe un-doable at all).

But anyway, you might want to take a look at the BM scheme(s):
www.guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4855/brian-series-parallel-switching-sss

[ace77]

I thought the on-off-on switches were the ones I needed, but if I need on-on-on for the order I'd like the switching options, then it's not a problem since I have both types.  I also have a 4pdt switch for the system series/parallel. So, how does this sound:

3 humbuckers, each wired to it's own switch for humbucker/off/coil cut
1 volume
1 tone
1 system series/parallel switch
1 phase, on neck pickup

Sound good, or is there something I could change or add?

[newey]

It sounds good, the question is, can it be done with these pickups? I'm still looking at this, but I have my doubts.

The problem comes about when you try to combine the coil-cut switching with the system series/parallel switching. The problems are compounded by having only a three-wire humbucker.

I posted a link to JohnH's modified Brian May scheme, which uses a 4PDT switch for system series/parallel with three single coil pickups. Take a look at John's diagram. Each pickup has its own on/off switch, as on the BM guitars. (You can ignore the 3 individual phase switches, they're not the issue here).

In order to have the three SC pickups in series, when a pickup is "off", its position in the series chain must be shunted. John's diagram uses an "On-On" switch for each pickup, which, when combined with the 4P2T, does exactly this. But you also want a three-position switch so that you can have a SC sound as well as an "off" position. Being able to cut the HB to single coil, while at the same time arranging for the coil to be shunted out of the series chain when the HB is turned "off" is where I'm having the problem.

Now, it may be that there is a solution to this, and I'm just being more dense than I usually am in not "seeing" the solution. But this has me stymied so far.

More later . . .

[JohnH]

I also see the same problem that newey suspects. To make that Brian may scheme work, which ignoring the phase switches, just has on/off plus series/parallel, it fully uses every part of the three dpdt switches and one four-pole switch. There is nothing left to do other things such as coil cutting. So it would need more poles on the on/off switches. There are rather expensive 4-four on on on toggles that could do it. For each pickup, two poles would be as on the BM design, and a third to do coil cut. Or have separate two-position on/off and humbucker/single switches

[newey]

John (and ace, of course):

I'm not sure the problem doesn't run even deeper than needing more poles. Even if more poles could solve the issues, if we're talking 4 4PDT switches (one per HB plus a system series/parallel), that just has to be a fitment issue.

My problem with this, however, is more basic. There are three HBS, and Ace proposes that, in at least one configuration, all three are to be placed in series. Since each HB has its two coils wired in series when in full HB mode, we effectively end up with 6 coils in a series chain (again, in at least one configuration). The signal goes through each coil in sequence.

Now, to bypass unwanted coils in series, we have to shunt around the unwanted coils. This is true whether we're talking about coils in two separate pickups, or about the 2 coils of one HB. But now we face the limitation that the coils of our 3-wire HBs aren't independently wire-able (absent modification to 4-wire). We only have the single "series junction" wire to work with.

We can either ground this wire, thereby shorting one of the two coils to ground, or we can wire it to the output, thus shorting the other coil to hot. Either way, we break the series chain at that point, correct?

[JohnH]

I think it would work, in theory, subject to fitting the switches. The single/humbucker switching for each pickup would be just local to that pickup, shunting the centre connections to their own local ground-side or hot-side connection,. After that, the on/off switching and overall series/parallel would be based on the three pickups as units, independent of whether any of them were working with one or two coils.

Mind you, having three humbuckers in series does seem unnecessary, and a simpler scheme with reduced series options might be more feasible.

[ace77]

Jan 1, 2014 1:51:05 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Mind you, having three humbuckers in series does seem unnecessary, and a simpler scheme with reduced series options might be more feasible.

I'm open to any suggestions. It seems like what I was after may not be possible. I was just looking to see if there were other options for the pickups I have other than just hum/single. I know you can't take them apart and get to the insides, but I read about system settings (series, parallel, phase) and was thinking about adding something along those lines if it were possible.

[newey]

John's right, this would work in theory, but you'd need a lot of switch poles and it's unlikely to all fit.

Three HBs in series tends to be a bit muddy, depending on the pickups. What John is suggesting is sensible, go for putting one pickup in series with whatever other pickups are selected (in parallel). This simplifies things tremendously and allows the use of much simpler switching.

A phase switch is also easily incorporated. This type of a scheme would give you a number of series options, parallel settings, and some OOP options if desired. And, it's all easily doable with DPDT switches.

[JohnH]

Jan 1, 2014 19:53:55 GMT -5 ace77 said:

Jan 1, 2014 1:51:05 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Mind you, having three humbuckers in series does seem unnecessary, and a simpler scheme with reduced series options might be more feasible.

I'm open to any suggestions. It seems like what I was after may not be possible. I was just looking to see if there were other options for the pickups I have other than just hum/single. I know you can't take them apart and get to the insides, but I read about system settings (series, parallel, phase) and was thinking about adding something along those lines if it were possible.

I think you can have three two-pole on/on/on's, to do off/single/humbucker for each pickup, plus a normal two-position dpdt to do series/parallel, putting one particular pickup in series with one of the others, or with both others in parallel. You can choose which pickup this might be, but if it was Bridge, you could get series options of BxN, BxM or Bx(N+M) That last one is quite good, paralleling the N and M keeps impedance down and so less muddy. You'd get all the single and parallel options of 1, 2 or 3 pickups in parallel. All options can be based on the pickups being singles or humbuckers. To optimise humcancelling when playing with the single coil combos, the pickup that is forced to series (B as above)would coil-cut to a different polarity coil than N and M.

There's only one issue, and I think it is acceptable: If you select series mode, and fail to select at least one of N and/or M to go with B, then you get no output. But that's ok because if all you really wanted was B, you would use parallel mode.

All of the above could alternatively be configured to force M, or N to be the one forced into series.

for this forced-series pickup, it will be possible to leave it in off position and it still comes on in series.

I have a half baked sketch but it needs a bit more attention.

[ace77]

Jan 2, 2014 16:33:34 GMT -5 JohnH said:

Jan 1, 2014 19:53:55 GMT -5 ace77 said:

I'm open to any suggestions. It seems like what I was after may not be possible. I was just looking to see if there were other options for the pickups I have other than just hum/single. I know you can't take them apart and get to the insides, but I read about system settings (series, parallel, phase) and was thinking about adding something along those lines if it were possible.

I think you can have three two-pole on/on/on's, to do off/single/humbucker for each pickup, plus a normal two-position dpdt to do series/parallel, putting one particular pickup in series with one of the others, or with both others in parallel. You can choose which pickup this might be, but if it was Bridge, you could get series options of BxN, BxM or Bx(N+M) That last one is quite good, paralleling the N and M keeps impedance down and so less muddy. You'd get all the single and parallel options of 1, 2 or 3 pickups in parallel. All options can be based on the pickups being singles or humbuckers. To optimise humcancelling when playing with the single coil combos, the pickup that is forced to series (B as above)would coil-cut to a different polarity coil than N and M.


I have a half baked sketch but it needs a bit more attention.

That sounds good to me.  Thank you.

[JohnH]

Here is the main switching, just add pots:


I've assumed all your pickups are identical in terms of coil direction and polarity.

If you have three wires per pickup, plus a bare or braid, then the braid goes to ground assuming it does not carry a signal (better check its not connected to a coil wire). If you only had two wires plus braid, then the braid is the signal ground and becomes the wires shown coming off the bottom of the blue coils in the diagram.

cheers

John 

[newey]

John-

A nice bit of wiring!

You mentioned previously that, with the bridge in series, either N or M had to be selected or you'd have no output. Is it not also the case that, in series mode, with either N or M (or both) "on", and with the bridge pup "off", you will have N and/or M in series with the blue coil of the bridge pup? Seems to me this occurs by making the connection via the diagonal jumper on the bridge on-on-on switch.

So, not only could you not turn the bridge pickup "on" by itself while in series mode, you also could never turn it fully "off", either, without first switching to parallel mode.

I was looking at how to make this work with using On-Off-On switches, so that "off" could be in the middle as ace requested. For the neck and middle pups, simply adding a red jumper from the lower right-hand lug to the upper right-hand lug (and thereby to output, with all other wiring kept the same as John shows, would do the trick, and would give HB-Off-SC.

But I'm unclear if that can also be made to work for the bridge switch.

[JohnH]

Jan 3, 2014 19:07:27 GMT -5 newey said:

John-

A nice bit of wiring!

You mentioned previously that, with the bridge in series, either N or M had to be selected or you'd have no output. Is it not also the case that, in series mode, with either N or M (or both) "on", and with the bridge pup "off", you will have N and/or M in series with the blue coil of the bridge pup? Seems to me this occurs by making the connection via the diagonal jumper on the bridge on-on-on switch.

So, not only could you not turn the bridge pickup "on" by itself while in series mode, you also could never turn it fully "off", either, without first switching to parallel mode.

Its as intended, the main idea about this series mode is that it is bridge in series with the others, so bridge is forced on in series mode - to give one less dead setting. If bridge was able to be turned off in series mode, it would be anther setting with no output.

[JohnH]

Jan 3, 2014 19:07:27 GMT -5 newey said:

I was looking at how to make this work with using On-Off-On switches, so that "off" could be in the middle as ace requested. For the neck and middle pups, simply adding a red jumper from the lower right-hand lug to the upper right-hand lug (and thereby to output, with all other wiring kept the same as John shows, would do the trick, and would give HB-Off-SC.

But I'm unclear if that can also be made to work for the bridge switch.

That's a good idea, and I think it would be ok for all three pickup switches. On-off-on's are more common and cheaper than on-on-on's.  Personally I'd prefer to have the off and full-on settings in the outer positions, with single in the middle, for less fiddly fast switching on and off, but its just a choice.

Anyway, I think this calls for a combo count.....

3 pickups, each hb or single so 6 single pickup options
3 pairs of two pickups in parallel, each with 2x2=4 options of single/humbucker = 12 sounds
All 3 in parallel, single or humbucker so 2x2x2 =8 options
2 series pairs of pickups, x 4 single/humbucker = 8
All 3 in series-parallel, x2x2x2 = 8

Total = 42 options

it should be enough Id say.

[ace77]

Thanks for the diagram John! There's a lot more options than I had guessed I could get out of these. So, going by what Newey said, if I put a jumper on each of the pickup switches from the lower right corner to the upper right corner, I can use on-off-on switches and get hum/off/single instead of on-on-on switches and keep the rest of the wiring on John's diagram otherwise as he has it, is that correct?

[JohnH]

Yes it should work like that. Its quite a nice unexpected result that it can be made to work with two different switch types.

[newey]

John-
i'd be much obliged if you would re-post that in the schematics section. We don't have many HHH schemes there.

[ace77]

Thanks to the both of you for your help on this!

[JohnH]

Jan 8, 2014 7:30:34 GMT -5 newey said:

John-
i'd be much obliged if you would re-post that in the schematics section. We don't have many HHH schemes there.

done!:

HHH schematics post