kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Jan 4, 2014 6:12:07 GMT -5
Hi, I'm hoping you guys can help me out (again!). This is what I'm working on, a HS strat, master volume pot, individual tone pots for the pickups, and a 3-way tele selector switch. All I want to do is: Switch position 1 - humbucker full on. Switch position 2 - neck pickup and one coil of the humbucker on (for hum cancelling). Switch position 3 - neck pickup on. I found a thread on here that kinda explained how to wire it up, but there's still a few things I'm unsure about. This is what I've come up with so far (excuse the iffy diagram) ... So, is it anywhere near right ?, or am I going in completely the wrong direction Also, with the neck pickup being RWRP, am I right in thinking that I'll need the screw coil of the humbucker on (slug coil off), for the neck and bridge to work together for hum cancelling? Oh, and where should the wires from the tone pots go on the switch? Any help would be much appreciated, Cheers.
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Post by newey on Jan 4, 2014 9:10:59 GMT -5
Welcome back, kurdt!
Your diagram looks fine so far. You can wire the tone controls as follows: Neck tone connects to the same place you have the neck pickup hot connected (lugs 2 and 3 on the lower pole of the 3-way switch). Bridge tone connects to lug #1, currently unused, on the same side of the switch.
However, done this way, you won't have the bridge tone control when the 3-way is in the center position. You'll only have the neck tone. There's really no way around this with your current hardware, since you're using the other pole of the 3-way to split the HB.
Some folks might actually prefer it this way, since it avoids the wonkiness of having the two tone controls operating at once, as you have at position 4 on a normal Strat.
Also. since you have a HB and a SC, you may want to have separate tone caps for each tone control, so that you can use different values. This is a fairly common Strat mod, we have a diagram around here somewhere for this, but you can probably use the Google, too.
An alternative, if you really want to have full tone controls at all switch positions, would be to use a dual-gang pot for the master volume. Each pickup gets one gang of the volume pot, and then to its own tone pot, all wired before the switch (basically like a Les Paul wiring).
That's the way you show it now, with the green/red coil (screw coil, north) operable at position 3. But there's really no way to know for sure what the polarity of the SSL is; just because it has screws doesn't necessarily mean anything. You should test the pickups before installing. Place the SSL face-to-face with each coil of the HB (or, if you already have them installed, use a magnet to test) Opposites attract, so whichever HB coil attracts the SSL is the coil you want.
N.B. For others who may be looking at the diagram, and wondering what the stray red wire from the SSL is (shown taped off with black electrical tape), the SSL features a coil tap. (I didn't know this, I had to look it up). Being a SC, this is a true "coil tap", not a "coil cut" or a "coil split".
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kurdt
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 36
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Post by kurdt on Jan 6, 2014 20:41:05 GMT -5
Hey Newey, Thanks alot for the help. Just to make sure I've got this right now, it should be like this, yeah? Thanks for the heads up about the tone controls (something I hadn't foreseen), and the suggestion of seperate caps for each pickup. I'm generally not all that fussy, so I think I'll just wire it up like the diagram for now, and see what it sounds like first (I'm also trying not to spend any money on this, it's all gonna be made up of spare parts I've got laying around, which is why the SSL is RWRP). I might go back and experiment with different caps latter on tho. The SSL-3T hasn't actually got screws in it, they're just slugs (my bad, being lazy with the diagram, sorry). I tested it like you suggested, and it's definitely attracted to the screw coil of the JB, so it should good I'm hoping that the SSL-3T on full output will be quite nicely balanced with the JB, only one way to find out I guess. Thanks again for ya help, This is a great forum ! Cheers.
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Post by newey on Jan 6, 2014 21:39:29 GMT -5
The diagram is fine. Let us know how it turns out!
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kurdt
Apprentice Shielder
Posts: 36
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Post by kurdt on Nov 1, 2014 4:24:34 GMT -5
Wow, I can't beleive I posted this back in January, and I'm only just getting 'round to doing it now, time flys eh Newey, if you're still around. I was just looking over the diagram before I get to work, and realised I've not included the bare twisted shield wire from the humbucker. I know it usually goes to ground on the back of the volume pot, is that still the case here? Cheers.
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Post by newey on Nov 2, 2014 23:22:27 GMT -5
Oh, I'm still around . . . Yes, or to wherever else you are grounding things. Your diagram indicates the use of a solder lug in the cavity as a grounding point, which is also a good place to ground things, and avoids the need to solder to the back of the pot (too much heat is not good for pots).
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kurdt
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by kurdt on Nov 12, 2014 15:52:57 GMT -5
Thanks Newey Well, I hooked it all up (finally !!), but something aint right. The neck pickup still works, as does the bridge pickup, but they're the wrong way around on the switch. With the switch up, the bridge is on, with the switch down, the neck is on. Also, the tone pot for the bridge pickup isn't working (the tone pot for the neck pickup works fine tho). But the bigger problem is that with the switch in the middle position, both pickups are dead, there's no sound at all. I've re-checked everything against the diagram, and it all seems right, and I've tested all the conections with a multimeter and didn't find any problems there, so I don't really know what to do now. As always, any help you could offer would be appreciated. Cheers.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 12, 2014 16:19:56 GMT -5
kurt, If you're still using the original diagram you posted back in January (and as later modified, per newey's suggestion), then I see your problem.... that diagram shows the pup selector from the top, not from the backside, as you'd see it when soldering on it. Hence, your connections are all reversed, end-to-end. Here's how to fix it: If I told you that your Duncan JB has its black going to pin 1, and the red/white going to pin 2, then you'd deduce that pin 4 has the output wire to the Vol pot, right? Well, swap them end for end - black to pin 4, red/white to pin 3, and the wire going to the Vol pot now goes onto pin 1. Do the same for the other side of the switch, with your other pickup. Important! Swap the jumper wire too, the one that jumps across the switch between the two sides. It should still connect the wire from the Vol pot to the opposing end pins of the switch. Now, as far as terminology goes (or nomenclature, if you prefer).... What I called pin 1 up above, that was incorrect. I did that so you'd not lose count as we went down the line, figuring out where things were supposed to go. But in reality, pin 1 should be called "C", for 'common'. It's the terminal, or lug, or pin, that is common to all three of the other terminals, as selected by the position of the lever. So what I'm really doing is telling you to remove the Vol pot wire from a single selection pin that is selected in only in the Bridge position, and move it to the Common pin. By moving the pickup's wires to the other end, they are going to where you can select only one Bridge coil, or both, as desired. The same holds true for the other side of the switch, and the Neck pup. HTH, and good luck! sumgai
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Post by newey on Nov 12, 2014 21:09:04 GMT -5
Yeah, sg's right, your description of the problem leads to the conclusion that you wired the switch backwards.
The switch lugs on those three-way lever switches vary a bit, depending on the brand of switch. On most, the common lugs are spaced a bit farther away from the other lugs, making it easy to see which ones are the commons. On others, it can be tough to tell.
I make it a practice (ever since ChrisK told me to do so . . .) of checking every switch with a multimeter before wiring it, just to be sure it's good. At the same time, if the common lugs aren't readily apparent, I will use a permanent marker to blacked the ends of the common lugs so I always have a visual reference (although the marks tend to become obscured once you solder to the lugs).
Bear in mind also that these lever switches are just that- levers. If we call the bridge position "1" and the neck "3", then in order for the lever to be pointing towards the bridge in position one, the lug numbered as "1" will be furthest from the bridge (excepting the common lug).
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Nov 13, 2014 10:50:05 GMT -5
Ah, thanks guys! ... you make it all sound so simple. So, just to make sure, it should look like this, yeah ? ... Cheers.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 13, 2014 14:17:07 GMT -5
kurt, I think your latest diagram will work as intended. Just be aware that when the pup selector is in the middle position (both pups in parallel), only Tone 1 will be in effect - Tone 2 comes into play only when the full Bridge pickup is selected. Now, up for discussion is just how much this affects your ability to achieve your desired tone. Some players like two tone controls (one per pup) on at the same time, others feel it's overkill. Me, I'm in the latter camp - one control is capable of handling both pups (in parallel) just fine, IMO, but I can't speak for other players. You'll have to weigh the advantages and disadvantages for yourself, and then decide to leave it alone, or make a simple change to have Tone 2 work in both Bridge-selected positions. HTH sumgai
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Nov 21, 2014 11:57:44 GMT -5
Thanks Sumgai. I'm not too sure about the tone pots situation when both pickups are on, I've not really tried it before, so I'll give it a good go with just the one working for now, and see how I get on with that first (then I might come back and nag you for more help, haha). Well, I had another crack at wireing this up last night, and it's a lot better but still not quite right. Now everything seems to be working how I'd like it (the coil split is great!), except the pickups are still the wrong way around on the switch, in the up position the bridge is on, in the down position the neck is on. The tone pots are working properly tho, meaning tone one works for the neck pickup, tone 2 works for the bridge pickup, and (only) tone 1 works when both pickups are on. The volume works as you'd expect on all pickups. I tested everything with a multimeter and it was all good, so something must be in the wrong place. Again, any help would be appreciated ... it's so close now! Cheers.
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Post by newey on Nov 21, 2014 22:10:57 GMT -5
OK, if everything is working, except that the switch positions are reversed, you have two choices. First, you can rotate the switch 180°, assuming you have enough slack wire to let you do so. Or, you can resolder it with the connections mirror-imaged from where they are now.
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kurdt
Apprentice Shielder
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Post by kurdt on Jul 6, 2016 14:32:28 GMT -5
Hey Newey, I'm sorry for the VERY late reply! I did what you suggested, and just turned the switch 180, worked perfectly!, thanks. I'm actually just changing the pickups in this now, to some lower output ones. Only thing is, the single coil in the neck is not RW/RP this time, so I need to change the coil split on the humbucker, so the slug coil is on, and the screw coil is off, when the switch is in the middle position. Seymour Duncan color codes ... I can see that the red and white wires need to go to ground this time, but I can't figure out where to put them on the switch?
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Post by newey on Jul 6, 2016 16:01:23 GMT -5
This is going to be problematic, since you are using both sides of the switch already to switch the "hot" sides of the pickups.
It can be done, but only in a fairly ugly manner, by leaving your bridge pickup "hanging from hot". We try to avoid having pickups "hanging from hot" as it can add noise. No guarantees that it will do so, but it is a risk, so we try to avoid it at all costs. Solving the "hanging from hot" issue would require more switching, i.e., using a separate switch (such as a P/P pot) to split the HB, meaning you'd have to perform 2 switch operations to get your coil split. The upside is, you could also split the bridge HB in position 1, not just in the center position.
So, I'm reluctant to tell you to do this with a hanging coil, but if you want to try it, you can. Since I'm giving you a verbal description of how to do it, if you decide to try it, please redraw your diagram so we can be sure you get this right. (And also so someone else can double check me . . .)
But here's how this would work. First, you would remove the diagonal jumper wire that goes between the two halves of the 3-way switch, tying the 2 common lugs together. Then, also remove the wire from the bridge-side common lug to the Vol pot "hot". On the side of the switch where the neck pickup and tone controls connect, the common lug is then wired to the Vol pot "hot" lug. Next, the black wire for the bridge HB would be disconnected from the switch, and instead it will be wired directly to the volume pot "hot" lug. The bridge HB's green wire is then removed from the back of the pot, and wired to the switch, to the same place the black wire now goes. The red/white pair stay wired as they are now. Finally, a wire will need to be run from the common lug on that side of the switch (which is now disconnected, since you removed the jumper) to ground.
The net result of all of this is that you will be using one side of the 3-way to switch the hot wire of the neck pickup and the second side to switch the ground side of the bridge HB- and leaving the hot side of the bridge pickup permanently connected, not ideal as I noted above.
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 6, 2016 16:27:56 GMT -5
First of all, if you want that other tone control to follow the pickup and be on in the middle position, you just wire it to where that pickup's hot wire goes on the switch and it'll work fine. I agree that I'm not sure it's necessary, but it really is that easy.
This other thing, though, is a bit trickier, but not really that hard. What you need to do is "re-stack" the HB, or as some folks around here would say wire it "inside out". Connect the black and green together instead of the white and red. Use the white wire as your "ground" and red will be your "hot". Then pretty much just drop into the existing scheme and it'll work. Assuming that coil is actually the right one for hum-cancelling.
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Post by newey on Jul 6, 2016 20:44:36 GMT -5
Ash is right, that's the way to do it. Don't know where my brain went on that one.
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Jul 7, 2016 9:26:24 GMT -5
You had me worried for a minute there Newey, that sounded pretty complicated Thanks for the info tho.
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Jul 7, 2016 9:32:04 GMT -5
First of all, if you want that other tone control to follow the pickup and be on in the middle position, you just wire it to where that pickup's hot wire goes on the switch and it'll work fine. I agree that I'm not sure it's necessary, but it really is that easy. This other thing, though, is a bit trickier, but not really that hard. What you need to do is "re-stack" the HB, or as some folks around here would say wire it "inside out". Connect the black and green together instead of the white and red. Use the white wire as your "ground" and red will be your "hot". Then pretty much just drop into the existing scheme and it'll work. Assuming that coil is actually the right one for hum-cancelling. Thanks a lot, that sounds simple enough. I'm pretty sure that will be the right coil for humbucking in the middle position, I'll give it a go tomorrow, and see how it goes. Cheers.
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Jul 7, 2016 9:39:18 GMT -5
I did try something yesterday, with some unexpected results.
This guitar is a little on the dark side, even with the 500k pots that are in it, so I thought I'd try a set of 1meg pots instead. I've never used 1meg pots before, so I was curious as to just how bright things would get. After putting them in, the tone pots where a little odd. They worked as you'd expect from 10 down to 2 on the knob, but if I went a hair under two, the volume would just drop off completely (this didn't happen on the volume pot, just the tone pots). I checked all the connections and they all seemed to be good, so I dunno why they would do this? It was the same on both tone pots, they both did exactly the same thing.
Anyway, I took them out, put the 500k's back in, and they're back to normal now. I left the 1meg pot in the volume control tho, as it makes the guitar sound softer somehow (something else I wasn't expecting, but I like it!). It's kinda like if you drop the height of the pickups away from the strings (I actually had to raise them a bit to compensate after putting the 1 meg vol pot in).
So yeah, it just left me wondering why the tone pots did that? These pickups are not very high output, the humbucker is only 8.5k, and the single coil is 13k. Do 1meg pots just not work very well with lower output pickups?
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 7, 2016 11:53:07 GMT -5
Sounds to me like the tone cap was either not there or shorted, so that when you turned the pots all the way down, you were shorting the entire signal, rather than just the higher frequencies.
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Post by reTrEaD on Jul 7, 2016 23:46:53 GMT -5
the tone pots where a little odd. They worked as you'd expect from 10 down to 2 on the knob, but if I went a hair under two, the volume would just drop off completely This is a symptom I would expect if your tone capacitor was shorted. EDIT: Ooops. I didn't notice there was a second page to this thread.
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Aug 7, 2016 8:51:32 GMT -5
Thanks for that.
I'll give the 1 mg pots another try then, and see if I can do it right this time!
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kurdt
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Post by kurdt on Aug 7, 2016 8:56:38 GMT -5
First of all, if you want that other tone control to follow the pickup and be on in the middle position, you just wire it to where that pickup's hot wire goes on the switch and it'll work fine. I agree that I'm not sure it's necessary, but it really is that easy. This other thing, though, is a bit trickier, but not really that hard. What you need to do is "re-stack" the HB, or as some folks around here would say wire it "inside out". Connect the black and green together instead of the white and red. Use the white wire as your "ground" and red will be your "hot". Then pretty much just drop into the existing scheme and it'll work. Assuming that coil is actually the right one for hum-cancelling. Well I tried it, and it works perfectly. The middle position is hum cancelling now, and it sounds really nice. Thanks a lot for the help, really appreciate it!
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