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Post by rainman2014 on Mar 28, 2014 9:52:47 GMT -5
Looking for suggestions and help with a schematic for most versatile and useful options available from this combo.The pickups are DiMarzio's, I'm replacing the 3 way switch with the rotary and the stock vol, tone with 2 push pull (1 250k and 1 500k) the 250 will be used to warm the tone a little. I want treble bleeds as well which function optimally in both humbucker and tapped modes for each pickup. To clarify things I'm going to try to be more specific,I don't want to waste anyones time trying to figure out what I'd like to do.Both pickups have been installed with the adjustable poles facing the neck ( I'll flip one if necessary) and in positions 1-4 on the rotary , if a tap switch is pulled I want these coils active.In positions 5 & 6 I'd like to be able to tap the coils with slugs , having the pickups in parallel and series respectively.I'm not interested in out of phase sounds (general consensus seems to be this isn't a very useful sound), I'm more concerned with hum cancelling and maintaining tonal balance as volume is rolled back in all positions (hence the question of diff treble bleeds for hum vs tapped ) and having as many combinations as possible that provide the virtual humbucker.
I'm open to the vol,tone setup as well if it provides better options just thought having both independent vols might be more versatile for blending. Thanks for any advice or suggestions you guys can offer.
I'm guessing the rotary part of the circuit would be a variation of this: deaf-eddie.net/tdpri-drawings/6-way-hc-request.jpg
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Post by newey on Mar 28, 2014 13:34:46 GMT -5
rainman-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
Sorry, but I had to move your post out of the Schematics section. I'm at work at the moment so no chance to discuss this further right now, but others will be along soon.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 1, 2014 19:53:36 GMT -5
What is it I'm missing , I've looked at PRS schematics using rotary 5 ways and they mention swapping the magnet polarity on one pickup to make the wiring work.They always tap the inner or outer coils though,is it possible to get hum cancelling when tapping the north and south coils of each in pairs ? I just assumed the two coils toward the neck would give a thick sound and emphasise when you switch to the coils toward the bridge.So how could you get that virtual bucker effect in as many switching options as possible ?
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Post by JohnH on Apr 1, 2014 21:57:30 GMT -5
Hi rainman,
to get a humcancelling in-phase combo, you need a north and a south coil. So there are two such combos taking one from each pickup. Which they are and where they are depends on your pickups, but if you had two identical pickups, it would be a slug coil and a screw coil. You can spin pickups around physically without changing that. Tones with inner and outer pairs, or those further or closer to the neck are subtly different. But if you want a single coil bridge only option, then there is a significant difference and most would prefer the coil further from the bridge on its own, being a bit thicker. There may not be so much difference between sound of two neck coils., but that would depend on the slug/screw characteristics and maybe if they are covered.
The best treble bleed seems to depend more on the pot value than the pickups, and 150k and 1nF in paralle is a good combo for 500k pots.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 2, 2014 8:27:19 GMT -5
Thanks John , I understand the coil farther from the bridge sounding thicker.I just didn't get why you always see inner or outer coils only options always being used.I guess it makes sense though if the diff between neck coils is only subtle,I was also wondering if the cap value should ideally change when a coil is tapped to maintain optimum tone given the change in overall circuit,or does that change anything electrically ? If it helps , my pickups are a DiMarzio Air Classic Bridge in the neck position and an AT-1 in the bridge , it's a mahogany body fixed bridge Ibanez JS.I'd just like to do this right the first time,getting the most versatile options and maintaining optimum tone in each selection.I never really considered the out of phase options much because everything I've read describes them as thin and nasal.No feedback on vol/vol vs vol/tone either,perhaps it's mostly personal preference and I've never owned anything with vol only.
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Post by newey on Apr 2, 2014 12:15:26 GMT -5
Having dual volumes, to my mind, is useful for "pre-setting" volume levels for switching between rhythm and lead mid-song, and also for coping with mismatched pickups. If those things aren't on your particular menu, then a master volume is fine.
As for tone controls, those who use them probably won't live without them, and those who never touch them can probably get by with adjusting tone at the amp when needed.
Are we talking about the cap on a tone pot? If so, I don't think that's a big deal either way. The cap value only really matters as you turn down the control. The pot value does matter as far as the brightness, but on my guitars with coil split options, Iit's never been a big enough difference to make me want to switch pot values around. Any value, between HB and SC settings, is a compromise in one direction or the other.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 2, 2014 20:57:33 GMT -5
Thanks Newey , I was thinking the same thing about the dual vols as well as using them to blend.The cap I was asking about is the one used in conjunction with a resistor for a treble bleed like the one in the link below.I was wondering if it would work more consistently when tapping if the humbuckers and individual coils had separate treble bleeds integrated into the same circuit or if it would even be noticeable vs a single bleed on each vol.I could be over thinking all of this but really want to bring out the best these pickups can offer up. www.ratcliffe.co.za/articles/volumepot2.shtml
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Post by newey on Apr 2, 2014 23:42:33 GMT -5
In case you hadn't stumbled upon it yet, here's all most of us know about treble bleeds. And what we know is courtesy of JohnH, who's actually done real research on the topic: JohnH's "A better treble bleed circuit"It's also a pretty good test. If you find that thread fascinating, you're officially Nutz!
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Post by JohnH on Apr 3, 2014 2:23:56 GMT -5
Newey has made good points about 2 volumes v volume & tone.
With the treble bleed, it was working things out for that thread that led to the view that R and C in parallel is best, and theres no need to have different values.
Im curious about whst settings you will have. Given two push pull pots, and no phase swap, what are the 6 settings on the rotary?
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 3, 2014 16:22:23 GMT -5
First of all thanks to both of you for very helpful feedback .Yes I actually read that post the same evening I joined and found it very informative and understandable compared to some I've read online. As for options from the rotary,so far all I've come up with is 1-Neck only 2-Neck/Bridge in Parallel 3-Bridge only 4-Neck/Bridge in Series (1-4 will give the neckward coil of either or both if tapped) 5-Neck/Bridge in parallel (Giving Bridgeward coils when tapped) if it's possible , this is just a wish list basically .6- Neck/Bridge in parallel (Giving inner coils when tapped) I assume this one will have to be out of phase,would this give the thicker of the out of phase options? Given that the PRS 5 way rotary setup reverses the magnets in the neck pickup to get inner and outer coils to be in phase ,will standard magnet configuration allow the selections I'm trying for in phase ? Sorry if some of these questions sound dumb but the guitar and pickups stretched my budget so I'm trying to do as pro a job as possible with the pickup swap and circuit mods to get the most versatile tones from it.
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Post by newey on Apr 3, 2014 19:46:11 GMT -5
What you are talking about doing here has nothing to do with any phasing. All these coils will be wired in phase, the only question is hum cancellation when you're in split-coil mode.
As you have laid it out, some of your combinations won't be hum-cancelling. Swapping magnets around, or rotating the pickup mounting 180 degrees, can allow you to pick and choose which ones are humbucking.
Thus, if you wire the coil cut to give both "neckward" coils, and the pickups are configured as you state, you'll have two screw coils and it won't hum-cancel.
As JohnH notes, which coil is active of the two matters some at the bridge, but the difference is likely to be minimal to non-existent at the neck. SO, you lock in your coil selection at the bridge, where it matters, and vary the coil selected at the neck so as to maximize hum-cancelling.
In my view, maximizing hum-cancelling trumps coil position when splitting HBs. SC settings that are hum-cancelling are so much more useable than otherwise, that the subtle difference of which coil is selected pales in comparison.
My 2 cents worth, anyway.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 3, 2014 20:43:28 GMT -5
Thanks Newey , hum cancelling is definitely at the top of my list.I just thought the coil position would have more of an effect than it does I guess.Seems like I can pretty much wire the 6 way almost the same as the diagram in the link , now I just have to sort out tying in the 2 push pulls with the treble bleeds.With the maximum number of hum cancelling options it should be versatile and who knows maybe even the out of phase will have a use at some point later on.Maybe it threw me off when I read about the PRS setup needing the magnets reversed in the neck pickup.I'm back to the inner and outer coils working as sets to cancel the hum when tapping.
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Post by newey on Apr 3, 2014 21:40:11 GMT -5
They only have to do this because someone cares about which position is occupied by the screw coil. IOW, they want to split the HB so that the screw coils are the active ones and so that the combos hum-cancel.
If the position of the screw coil doesn't matter to you, you just want to maximize hum-cancelling, then physically flipping the pickup around works just as well. It just swaps the positions of the screw and slug coils. So if that is a matter of unimportance to you, there's really no need to be switching magnets around.
This all assumes the HBs in question have fairly identical coils. If the coils are dissimilar, then it may matter which coil is in which position, as with something like Seymour Duncan's P-rails.
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Post by JohnH on Apr 4, 2014 2:18:08 GMT -5
I had a think and I reckon you could get a very good design, that is as humcancelling as it can be, and is almost what you want but not quite, in that it would have the two out of phase modes from the deaf eddy diagram. You are somewhat constrained not only by the existance of the north and south magnetic poles that you have, but also the availlable switch poles.
But, I think the following would be versatile and fun to play:
Wire the rotary exactly like the DE diagram, which also has the other bridge wire to ground. It does the phase options by flipping the neck pickup. For your neck coil cut, use the push/ pull to short out one coil of the neck humbucker, always the same coil. The other PP switch shorts out a bridge coil, but via the spare rotary pole ( which d eddy did not use). Let it choose the other bridge coil to be shorted when in out of phase modes. So this bridge coil-cut circuit goes from the centre join between coils, through the pp switch, to the spare rotary pole. Then the outer lugs for this pole go to whichever bridge coil gets shorted in each setting.
That way, you can set it up to cut to a north snd a south coil for all in phase modes, and two the same for out of phase . All are hum cancelling. This 4th rotary pole can also make sure you get whichever bridge single you prefer, when bridge only is used.
Another thing about those switches. The ones like the image on DE's diagram ard quite good and not hard to find. Ive got two of them on an LP copy where i used them ib a similar fashion to switch the coils of each humbucker, rather than between pickups. They are fairly firm to turn, so a good sized knob is useful. Also, they are not too easy for quick changes as comoared to Gibson toggles or Fender blade switches.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 4, 2014 11:56:40 GMT -5
Thanks to both of you again for being patient.I've flipped the neck pickup as they have mounting rings so adjusting poles isn't as important.I'm going to look for some more schematics on dual push pull vols and attempt JohnH's suggestion in his last post.If I'm using a 500K for the bridge and a 250 for the neck should the cap or resistor values change for the neck vol treble bleed (I'll be going with the parallel setup suggested on each)? If I'm understanding John correctly this will give me all possible hum cancelling options and the warmest coil pairings.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 4, 2014 14:28:47 GMT -5
Ok , I'm back to where I started as far as the pickup config goes.Something about it didn't sit well with me ,so I pulled the neck again and flipped the magnet this time,reinstalling so both screw poles are neckward.Now I will begin to construct a schematic after some more research on setups using 2 push pull vols and the ideas you guys have suggested.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 4, 2014 14:55:55 GMT -5
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Post by JohnH on Apr 4, 2014 15:04:21 GMT -5
For your pots, Its not a big difference but I would have thought you would use 500k for all of them. These go well with treble bleed of 150k and 1nF. But if you are using a 250k volume pot, I found it can be slightly better to reduce the resistor to 120k.
When I first started looking at treble bleed, with 500k pots, I got to the point of figuring out that the parallel arrangements worked best, and used 1nF and 220k since this is a fairly common recipe on a few places around the net. Some of my older diagrams here still have that. But I found it tended to get a bit thin sounding at lower volume, which is when I went right into the subject to try to crunch it. Playing with values, I found the 150k to be significantly better in theory, and in practice it fixed the issue that I had with the 220k. But there is plenty of room for personal variation though, and you might want to try a few values in that range. The values I picked are the best I could work out for use in the volume range from about 5 up to 10. They work well below that, but if your favourite reduced volume setting is in the range say 1 to 4, a slightly smaller cap is slightly better. But its not worth getting carried away with this, I suggest maybe try a few and then just go with one simple arrangement.
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Post by newey on Apr 6, 2014 21:51:51 GMT -5
Rainman-
We've had some discussions of the freeway switch, you might want to try the search function, going back a couple of years.
The switch, IIRC, is internally connected to do certain things. I think you have to work out the logic of the thing to see what can be done with it.
I don't think we've had anyone actually try one of these.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 7, 2014 19:58:27 GMT -5
Yes I contacted Freeway and they said Stew Mac will soon have the new version which has 28 terminal connections. It should be able to reproduce anything the rotary can do but be easier to navigate.The rotary does seem clumsy in comparison.
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 8, 2014 21:05:56 GMT -5
John H could I get your opinion on which of these would give the same options as the 6 way rotary with DiMarzio wiring using the 2 push pulls ? freewayswitch.com/download-pdfs/
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Post by JohnH on Apr 10, 2014 15:29:10 GMT -5
Hi Rainman, I had a few goes at trying to download the freeway diagrams, and had to wait until I got to a proper pc.
From their info, it seems that the Freeway ultra version will do all 6 options of single and both, series and oop. See the Free-Way 3X3-05 ver b Diagrams.pdf. It has that scheme, with a coil cut switch all drawn up as the first wiring diagram. It uses one extra push/pull to cut both pickups, but you could easily divide that in to two push pulls to get individual control.
But I cant figure out how it works, since there is only two common pole lugs and this would usually need three. Also, not sure if the diagram is fully humcancelling on its coil-cut combos. It might be good to work it out and check. Also I see it has a master volume and a bridge volume..hmmm.
Interesting switch though - so who's gonna try it first?
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Post by rainman2014 on Apr 11, 2014 11:04:47 GMT -5
Thanks John , I just wasn't sure if I could achieve the same options possible with the rotary using the 15 pole or if I definitely needed the 28 pole.Waiting for word back on availability in Canada through L&M , contacted Freeway directly but they asked I go through a distributor.Even though they don't have one in Canada , they do deal with AllParts and L&M sources alot of their stuff from AllParts,now it's just a matter of getting the dots to connect cooperatively in a timely fashion.It seems like a much more user friendly solution though for real world use.The rotary would probably be more functional in a studio setting than jamming of playing out.If I can get my hands on one soon I'll post pics of the inner workings.
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