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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 4:43:10 GMT -5
Hello,
there is a theory that a part of the initial energy of the strings is absorbed by the moving/vibrating trem springs. I believe that, since it is obvious that much of the "reverb" effect that float double locking trem systems is exhibiting is due do energy initially carried by the strings. So, since we need to keep the energy on the strings, in order to increase sustain, would it be a solid idea, that using silent springs might help sustain?
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Post by sumgai on Dec 31, 2014 12:06:58 GMT -5
'dude,
Define "silent spring", please. For me, it means that the spring has been dampened by an outside means (usually rubber bands woven through the spring at intervals), but there are other methods. But you might have something else in mind, so I want to be sure of your intent first, before going on.
sumgai
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 12:42:47 GMT -5
Hey, happy New Year boss! There are some variations I have seen like : or those ones : My point is that, if the springs are prevented from absorbing the string energy, then the energy will have no other option but to stay on the strings
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 31, 2014 13:36:01 GMT -5
Looks good on the surface, but I think a deeper analysis might lead to a different conclusion. In my estimation the springs will still "absorb" energy from the strings but instead of causing a resonance on the springs, the pliable coatings will just convert that energy into heat.
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Post by lunaalta on Dec 31, 2014 13:42:39 GMT -5
I'm no expert in these things, but, I'm thinking that the springs above would still receive the energy, but it will be damped by the 'wrap'. So, the energy will be lost, rather than returned or passed. Probably lost as thermal energy. Perhaps, rubber damped spring mountings would be a little more efficient at stopping the energy from entering the springs. Though I doubt it'd do much good to the vibrato action.... In fact, I'd think they wouldn't last very long at all. As an after thought, I'm sure that much of the kinetic spring energy is passed through the bridge fixings, particularly since they are close to the bridge contact points with the body. Of course, since the bridge piece has no 'concrete' connection, due to the 'loose' fixings to the body, energy will be lost there, too, but not so much. I guess, if you could isolate the springs from the equation, using isolated fixings, that more energy would pass via the bridge fixings...... but, this might well have an effect on the tonal characteristics of the guitar.............. Just thinking out loud, here...... This had got me thinking about what the springs do to the energy, as it passes through....... bearing in mind that they will be acting in a very similar way to reverberation springs, but, perhaps, with a different frequency range...... I'm not gonna sleep tonight...... LOL Concise, reTrEaD, and quick.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 14:03:01 GMT -5
Looks good on the surface, but I think a deeper analysis might lead to a different conclusion. In my estimation the springs will still "absorb" energy from the strings but instead of causing a resonance on the springs, the pliable coatings will just convert that energy into heat. Lets forget there is a tremolo and its purpose, for the moment. If marginally we think of springs as completely "still" and steady in comparison to block and strings, then the argument might stand. It depends on the relation of mass of block/springs/strings and the whole system. If we increase stability/inertia on the springs, in relation to the string movement, I guess the argument holds. So my point is to make the springs "stable" in relation to strings vibration, under normal/non-trem use.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2014 14:06:03 GMT -5
I'm no expert in these things, but, I'm thinking that the springs above would still receive the energy, but it will be damped by the 'wrap'. So, the energy will be lost, rather than returned or passed. Probably lost as thermal energy. Perhaps, rubber damped spring mountings would be a little more efficient at stopping the energy from entering the springs. Though I doubt it'd do much good to the vibrato action.... In fact, I'd think they wouldn't last very long at all. As an after thought, I'm sure that much of the kinetic spring energy is passed through the bridge fixings, particularly since they are close to the bridge contact points with the body. Of course, since the bridge piece has no 'concrete' connection, due to the 'loose' fixings to the body, energy will be lost there, too, but not so much. I guess, if you could isolate the springs from the equation, using isolated fixings, that more energy would pass via the bridge fixings...... but, this might well have an effect on the tonal characteristics of the guitar.............. Just thinking out loud, here...... This had got me thinking about what the springs do to the energy, as it passes through....... bearing in mind that they will be acting in a very similar way to reverberation springs, but, perhaps, with a different frequency range...... I'm not gonna sleep tonight...... LOL Concise, reTrEaD, and quick..... exactly my own thoughts man... If we could just build a "frequency wall" on the block/springs, so that no energy is wasted there.... Unfortunately no big brass blocks exist for this trem (edge zero-ii 7-string), as exists for floyds, gotohs and other ibanezes.
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Post by lunaalta on Dec 31, 2014 16:00:20 GMT -5
I think, with any float trem system, you are gonna lose energy, in order for it to work. Firstly, in order to improve energy transfer at the pivot connection, you'd need to look at locking it down as the best energy transfer. But then you lose the trem action....... Secondly, if you use heavier spring material, to reduce spring vibration (and so, energy loss), or ultimately, use a solid bar, again, you lose the trem action...... A bit of a 'chicken and egg' situation......... More trem = less energy transfer = less sustain Less trem = more energy transfer = more sustain But, I'm just guessing. Ensuring that any other possible points for energy loss are optimised may help, of course. A good neck, good bridge, good neck fixing, a good body, etc... Just follow the circle of energy within the guitar and make sure it's all as good as it can be. Another thought occurs to me............ Uh Ohhh..... LOL. So, the string's vibrational energy must continue to run around the guitar with a minimum of loss, to create sustain. At some point it will meet itself and continue traveling round and round. But, what if components of the guitar change this energy movement, in some way, in that the vibrations are partially canceled out, either by materials used having a damping effect or just a change in the phase of the vibrations? Like I said, I'll be up all night thinking about this.....
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Post by newey on Dec 31, 2014 22:38:44 GMT -5
No, you'll be up all night 'cause it's New Year's Eve! (First thread derailment of 2015!)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 1:37:03 GMT -5
Hey, HNY people! Luna, there is smth more : www.vai.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=97&start=0If only certain notes loose sustain, as I suspect is the case with my ibby UV70p (but nothing to lose sleep over), and if this is due to trem springs synchronizing with some certain notes, that would be a sustain killer for those notes. By forcing the springs to be still in their perpendicular motion, by mechanical terms, without compromising their intended function, I guess the unwanted effect would be cancelled.
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Post by lunaalta on Jan 1, 2015 4:11:05 GMT -5
Well, that's an easy fix to try, without making any serious changes to your axe. I wonder if Teflon coated springs would help reduce spurious vibes.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 6:14:23 GMT -5
Well, that's an easy fix to try, without making any serious changes to your axe. I wonder if Teflon coated springs would help reduce spurious vibes..... i am gonna order some noiseless springs from some guy in Poland, over ebay : stores.ebay.co.uk/guitarmodz?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 . He has sent me decent stuff in the past.
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Post by lunaalta on Jan 1, 2015 8:40:05 GMT -5
Ahhh, they look like a good idea, for what you're looking for.
It'll be interesting so see if the sustain is affected, one way or the other.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 9:43:48 GMT -5
Ahhh, they look like a good idea, for what you're looking for. It'll be interesting so see if the sustain is affected, one way or the other..... definitely. This guitar has good sustain, just i'd like some secs more. Also it has KTS titanium rods, and thin neck, might have some effect as well. I'll keep you posted.
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Post by JohnH on Jan 1, 2015 14:34:55 GMT -5
Happy New Year everybody.
This discussion on vibration has some interesting parallels with an issue that comes up in my day job as a structural engineer, related to structural dynamics and the vibration of floors in buildings. Structures vibrate at all kinds of frequencies, with the principles being much the same as those which apply to musical strings. The difference is that we want to kill such vibrations if they are excessive, rather than play them loudly through an amplifier.
The best way to reduce vibrations, short of completely changing the structure is by adding damping. Damping is like the viscous shock absorber element in a car suspension. Double the damping and vibration is halved. This damping comes not only from specific damper elements (which are not common) but also from many sources such as building contents and the materials from which the structure is made.
So, flipping to guitar issues, to promote sustain we need minimum damping. This comes first from using the right tone woods which behave elastically, resonating without absorbing energy. All sources of friction must be reduced because this adds damping. Also, the vibration of the guitar body will be absorbed and damped by the wet squishy material that is the guitarist himself. This has less influence if the guitar body is stiffer and also more massive.
In structures, one neat way to supress particular resonances is by means of a tuned mass damper. It is effectively a mass on a spring tuned to a problem frequency, with a damper attached. At this frequency, the mass vibrates, and the energy is then dissipated in the damper. For the guitar, with the opposite intention and relevant to the trem system, we want to avoid this affect. If the trem and springs had any significant resonant frequencies (when floating) that are within the musical range, they will pick those up and suck energy out of the strings. Id expect you could get a handle on this effect by damping the strings and tapping parts of the trem system to hear if they resonate. But it doesn't means its wrong if they do, a Strat would sound different without the trem springs singing!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 0:09:54 GMT -5
John HNY!
Thanks for the useful info! Wouldn't this mean, that "dead spots" on guitars would be certain fretted positions/notes on the fretboard, for which (combination of position and note, a specific position for a specific tuning) because the wood absorbs energy for this position/note combination by dampening due to wrong selection of wood ? And in case a note just dies out quickly, independently of position on the fretboard, wouldn't this mean that some part (headstock, nut, truss rod, reinforcement side bars/stripes, saddles, bridge and parts, block, springs, claw) might be synchronizing at this frequency and sucking energy from the strings?
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 2, 2015 18:32:02 GMT -5
Like most things, someone appears to have been more clever at selling a fix than devising a fix.
$.11 of tubing later, problem solved.
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2015 0:28:54 GMT -5
lol @2:24
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2015 5:01:29 GMT -5
Like most things, someone appears to have been more clever at selling a fix than devising a fix. $.11 of tubing later, problem solved. HTC1 Cyn1, I did it in all my trem guitars, but where it did the biggest impact was on the new ibanez universe uv70p. A big impact. It worked like a charm. Also by retaining ultra quiet and tight conditions (trem arm screw id and tightened, not floating), hand muting all strings, light picking in order not to trigger unwanted movements, I managed to increase sustain on 20th fret. I think 0.5 second at least, which believe it or not I can sense it while playing. I measured it as well. Amazing. A new idea to make for a heavy trem block might come next.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 16:52:17 GMT -5
I tried some new polymer noiseless springs I got from ebay. After one day I reverted back to the solution with the medical rubber tubing of the video. Much more silent, bigger sustain.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 28, 2015 18:07:28 GMT -5
Yeah, amazing what you can accomplish with a few inches of surgical tubing...
Glad it worked out for you.
So, what's next?
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 0:16:09 GMT -5
I guess trying to get/build somehow a bigger/more massive/heavier/more resonant trem block, or just anything that will help just a little bit on the last frets. Maybe this means making the hardware more tight, less vibrant, with more inertia.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 1:05:49 GMT -5
This seems to help a little bit : Added 50 grams, I cannot say the improvement is dramatic, but I do have times getting 4 secs on the 22th fret, which is OK. I think maybe there is something inherent with the guitar that makes those notes ring weak. Might be the rods inside the neck, might be that neck heel still slightly touches the neck pickup (despite the fix I had done, which corrected the biggest part of the problem but their touching is still there). Overall I think it is ok.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 31, 2015 15:53:41 GMT -5
The tone and sustain all stem from the tightness and accuracy in construction along the path from the nut to the saddle. Anything you put in line with that transfer of energy is going to have an effect. In the case of the trem-leo, I always felt, in the right hands, the inherent loss of energy to the body of the string vibration through several mechanical layers, was far offset by the nuance and emphasis gained by said mechanisms.
You want a guitar to sustain forever?
Get a 50's Les Paul.
HTC1
EDIT: ...and those hands...
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Post by haydukej on Jan 31, 2015 16:09:42 GMT -5
I'm tempted to say that Gary plays with the volume knob just about as much as Jerry did.
That video also sparked a philosophical thought for me this Saturday...what is the point when sustain becomes feedback?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 16:19:11 GMT -5
Cyn1, sure, but the question is why 22th, or 20th with a full tome bend, and not e.g. 19th with a half tone bend, or 15 with a full tone bend which sustains maybe on the same level as the vid with gary moore shown above? I am chasing those frequencies. That is a list of steps that I did that gave me this one second : - medical tubing mod - noiseless springs - threw those away and back to the medical tubing mod - increased the string action slightly - decreased the pup action slightly - trem arm has to be *on the guitar*, freely hanging down, not tightened - did the wheel balancing iron weights mod, shown above, by adding 50 gramms Gained a full second! You want a guitar to sustain forever? Get a 50's Les Paul. Ok, I respect Gibson and their gear, but I am not a masochist I mean once you try the wizard neck, it is hard to go back.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2015 16:20:04 GMT -5
I'm tempted to say that Gary plays with the volume knob just about as much as Jerry did. That video also sparked a philosophical thought for me this Saturday...what is the point when sustain becomes feedback? I forgot to say that all my testing is done with headphones. No amp speakers of any sort. btw sustain now on 22th fret, not bended is close to 4 secs. What do you guys get around this area in terms of seconds? I mean smth that the digital tuner can sense, or your ear can sense, or Audacity or other SW can sense in some way.
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Post by cynical1 on Jan 31, 2015 16:31:05 GMT -5
How is the neck setup? Any high spots?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2015 0:32:40 GMT -5
How is the neck setup? Any high spots? Neck has slight relief. IIRC about 0.05->0.1mm on 10th fret, measured between 1st and 23th. (Official Fender is somewhere 0.25mm , and Ibanez 0.3mm, but measured on 8th fret and between 1st and 19th fret). There are some high spots, but the string action height has to be really low in order for those to take effect. I had managed to do 1.2mm on low B at 24th fret, and 0.9mm on high E at 24th fret, without choking notes, which is really really low. Currently the action height is 1.4mm on low B, 1.1mm on high E, still considered very low. But it is interesting to see how the note decays, e.g. on 22th fret, high E (which is a D). Before the mods, it used to be like this : It begun strong, then suddenly lost strength and immediately died out, as the pickups started sensing other noises. So i try to be rally careful with muting everything as possible. Now after the mods, it is like this : it begins strong, then loses strength, then regains some strength rings for some 0.5 seconds more and then dies out instantly. I had the same pattern with my scalloped partscaster, but then most frets were suffering from this, so I ended up selling it. The Ibanez uv70p has much better tone, really big volume and sustain all over the fretboard except the special case we are discussing here. Anyways, what is your sustain on 22th (or any fret between 20th->24th)? How many seconds do you get? In my other axes, they can do between 5 and 6 seconds on 20th with a full tone bend.
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Post by cynical1 on Feb 1, 2015 14:05:44 GMT -5
OK, little trade secret. You want super low shredder from Hell action? Seems like you're doing OK in the neck relief department, but your frets are probably all the same profile. If you want a super flat neck with low action you're going to need to use a smaller profile on the higher frets.
Somewhere you're losing energy. A high profile fret on the higher frets may be your issue. At $10.00 a fret, which I recall being the going rate in your neck of the Mediterranean, drop a smaller profile into the highest 4-6 frets.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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