John S. Atchleys Double Barrel wiring question

[flyingpig]

Hello i want to try the John S. Atchley's double barrel wiring link"http://http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/page/gn1-pages/wiring/doublebarrel/index.php" for my strat but i want to keep both my tone controls, can anyone suggest how the wiring should be made for that to happen?
Thank you

[newey]

flyingpig-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

There was a reason that Atchley sacrificed his middle tone knob in that scheme- so that he could fit the second lever switch. So, the first question to answer is how it's all going to fit if you have three pots plus the 2 lever switches.

JA noted that he was originally going to do this with a concentric pot, although for master V and T. You could put a concentric pot in place of the tone pot for individual tones. As to how to wire it, that may take some further examination. The second pole of the regular 5-way sits unused, so that could be pressed into service for switching the tone pots, but I can't quite see how to get the individual tone pots working off of the superswitch settings as well.

As to fitment, JA noted that he wanted to use full-size pots. If you can live with the mini-pots, using those instead might allow for three pots plus the switches.

[Runewalker]

I was always intrigued by the double barrel design as well. Some time back there was an extensive discussion about an extension of the idea:

Double Barrel II

I never got around to building it, but do have the parts. The thing that slowed me down was that I was going to have to hog out some wood, customize the pickgaurd and work incrementally on fitment. not a lot of room in a strat cavity.

The thread is pretty long as it explores a number of design options and discussions, but may be a springboard for your ideas. One thing that may help on the fitment Newey mentioned it that buried in the thread is a source for thinner superswitches,

RW

[flyingpig]

Well i have routed the cavity just a bit and i have enough room for 3 full size pots and the 2 levers, but how do i make the connections based on the JA's double barrel?
Thanks for your answers

[newey]

fp-

If I wasn't headed off to work, I'd do a quick diagram for you, but a verbal description is all I can manage at the moment. I suggest you draw this up so we can check it before you start wiring.

First off, you haven't said what pickups you want to have the 2 tones pots, so I'll assume you want the standard Strat set-up of tone pots for the neck and mid. If you want a bridge tone pot instead, you'll have a change or two.

Remember that I said there is the unused pole of the standard 5-way switch? We'll use that to wire up the two tone pots just like on a regular Strat. Doing so will then give you the individual tones when the SSuperswitch is in the bypass position, position 1 on JA's diagram.

The lower right-hand lug on the regular 5-way is the common lug for the second pole. It needs to be wired to output to operate the two tone pots, so you'll wire a jumper from the lower right lug to the upper left lug, where the red wire is shown. The existing red wire will be disconnected from JA's master tone on the diagram, so the red wire will now just go to the Vol pot.

The neck tone pot then is wired to the lower left-hand lug of the 5-way, and the mid tone is wired to the next lug over from the neck, which is the second from the left on the lower pole.

Now. we need to provide for tone pots for positions 2-4 on the superswitch. To do so, we need to make some room on that switch by freeing up one of the poles. The upper right hand pole of the superswitch controls the middle pup +, and there's only 2 connections from that pole: At position 1, it connects the mid + to the regular 5-way for the bypass setting, and at position 3 it connects the mid + to the Bridge - for the series setting at position 3 on the SS. So, remove the M + from the common lug (farthest upper right-hand lug)and wire it directly to both lug #3 on the lower right-hand pole of the SS and to the middle lug of the regular 5-way (best way is to wire the M + directly to the middle lug of the regular 5-way, then run a wire from there to lug #3 on the lower right of the SS.). Then, disconnect the two blue wires shown from the upper right pole, that is the blue wire to the regular 5-way at position 1 and the jumper at position 3 both need to go.

The upper right-hand pole of the SS should now have no connections to it, and we can use it for the tone pots. The common lug will be wired to the output (i.e., to the volume pot hot, or you could just run it up to the red wire on the regular 5-way). Next, the neck tone pot will be wired off of the upper right pole of the SS, connecting to lugs ##2,4,5. The middle tone will connect to lug #3 only.

Note that, since there is no N x M setting on the SS (i.e., no neck and mid in series), you don't run into the problem of having 2 tone pots active in series. If you decided you wanted the bridge pup to have its own tone instead of the mid, then the problem will arise, and we'd have to rethink all of the above.

[flyingpig]

Hi many thanks for your detailed answer, i haven't thought before to send one tone pot instead of the middle (which i rarely use) to the bridge pickup, and sounds great.
I have three single coils 2 fender and 1 seymour duncan,  and 3 CTS 250k pots.
If it makes sound or tone trouble wiring the pot to bridge, i will go with the middle, if it makes no problem i will go with the bridge.
If you can make a wiring diagram it will be so much faster for me to understand.
Thanks again for everything
Regards Nick

[newey]

I can do a diagram, but it may be a day or two.

If you want a bridge tone, as I mentioned, that will create problems for the series settings. Probably your best bet for that would be to use the two tone pots only on the regular 5-way, and when in series on the Superswitch to just have one or the other, either the neck or bridge, instead of both. While it is possible to have two tone pots for series, the way I see it, you would have to make pretty substantial changes to this particular scheme for that to work well.

But then again, maybe someone else has a brighter idea than mine, so let's hear what the consensus of opinion is on this first.

[flyingpig]

Ok i drew a diagram of what you proposed above let me know my mistakes. I also made a second diagram to add the bridge and mid tone when on regular five way and only mid when on Super Switch. I forgot to draw the cap for the two tone pots but i will use a .05 50v dime cap.

I think for series just the neck tone is enough for me. so i will have tone and bridge for normal 5 way and just neck (maybe middle also there) for Super switch.
What do you think??
Thanks again

[JohnH]

A couple of cents worth on tone pots for this:

If you can get two separate full-size pots back in there, Id recommend using no-load pots. It extends your tonal range and keeps the series settings much clearer. If you are using stacked or mini pots, then 500k.

I think I'd do one of two things:
either, one master tone pot, and the other hard wired directly across the bridge pickup hot and cold wires, or, both tone pots hardwired to pickups, one to neck one to bridge

When you are in series modes, there are very interesting sounds available if you can turn down one tone which only affects the tone component of one pickup, particularly series out of phase. When you do that, the other pickups high treble comes through stronger, for a bright almost single-coil top with thick series bass. The above ideas will give you this, either just for the bridge part, or neck and bridge (but then no M tone control).

[newey]

John-

I was thinking of wiring the tone pots directly across the pickups, but won't that act wonky with a master volume?

[JohnH]

Feb 20, 2015 20:30:41 GMT -5 newey said:

John-

I was thinking of wiring the tone pots directly across the pickups, but won't that act wonky with a master volume?

I think its OK, I have a couple of guitars like that. Some Strats have it too. But do you foresee a problemo?

[flyingpig]

Feb 20, 2015 14:45:15 GMT -5 JohnH said:

A couple of cents worth on tone pots for this:

If you can get two separate full-size pots back in there, Id recommend using no-load pots. It extends your tonal range and keeps the series settings much clearer. If you are using stacked or mini pots, then 500k.

I think I'd do one of two things:
either, one master tone pot, and the other hard wired directly across the bridge pickup hot and cold wires, or, both tone pots hardwired to pickups, one to neck one to bridge

When you are in series modes, there are very interesting sounds available if you can turn down one tone which only affects the tone component of one pickup, particularly series out of phase. When you do that, the other pickups high treble comes through stronger, for a bright almost single-coil top with thick series bass. The above ideas will give you this, either just for the bridge part, or neck and bridge (but then no M tone control).

I just became familiar with the no load pot term and i always thought that pots were acting like that anyway. Well i was wrong and this is a great idea, i already ordered no load 250k.
I have managed to fit full sized pots and the two switches and i didn't have to route in the guitar. I have an Eric Clapton blackie strat not sure if she has bigger cavity in there. I will post pics and dimensions of pickguard cutting right after im finished with the wiring to see how it all settles in there.

I'll wait for your debate to be concluded and i will start the wiring.

Thanks so much guys for the suggestions your help is already so valuable to my project.

[newey]

I'll wait for your debate to be concluded and i will start the wiring.

Well, hold up just a minute. Our debate isn't much of one, but there are some issues with both of your diagrams which need to be resolved first. You have wired the tone controls to the switches just like I told you to do, that part is fine. But you haven't got the tone pots themselves wired correctly.

First off, there are no capacitors shown. Second, the cap (or caps) has to be connected to ground. Third, both tone pots should be wired identically- there are different ways of wiring tone pots, but they're both wired the same for your purposes. the signal should go in to the "wiper", the middle lug, of each pot, and then a capacitor is wired to ground from the third lug. You can check any number of diagrams, here or elsewhere, to see how this is done. Make sure you pay attention to which lug is the clockwise and which is the counterclockwise one, or your knob will work backwards, i.e. "lefty". This becomes something to watch because some diagrams are drawn as if looking from the cavity upwards, while others are drawn as if looking down through the guitar- so the pots may be shown mirror-imaged right to left for what you need.

On the classic Strat wiring, ol' Leo saved a few cents by using one shared capacitor between the two tone pots. It's a fairly common modification to put in separate caps for each pot; this enables the use of different cap values for the different pickups. Caps are cheap, so you should do likewise here, although this isn't a big deal either way, it's more valuable to do so on HSS guitars where one may want a different cap for the bridge HB with a bridge tone pot.

JohnH-

I guess I was thinking that there would be interaction between the pots like on an Explorer or Flying V, but that's two volumes into a master tone instead of two tones into a master volume. And, it seemed like series settings would just make things worse. I was thinking you'd need to use a dual-gang pot and wire like on an LP, but thought that fp wouldn't be able to fit a dually in there. But if you've done this without issues, then I'll defer to your empirical knowledge (as opposed to my gut hunch.)

fp-

Since you need to redo the diagrams anyway, do as John suggests and just wire the tone pots directly across the pickups on which you want them to be operable. This will simplify your wiring a great deal, and fewer connections means fewer potential points for a circuit failure. It means you can just use JA's diagram "as is", because your tone pots won't be wired off of the switches.

To see how to do this, consult any LP wiring diagram and look at how the tone controls are wired. Ignore the individual volume pots. You will see that each tone control is wired "first in line" after the pickup it serves, and before any switching. That's what you'll be doing to implement JohnH's suggestion.

If you do as John suggests, you'll have to pick either the bridge or mid pickup to get the second tone pot, as his scheme won't allow for two pickups to share a tone pot, like you have shown on your second diagram.

Your second diagram, where the bridge and mid share a tone pot, will give you the same issues as a regular Strat has at Position 4 (i.e., N + M setting), as both tone pots will be in circuit at that position. If you've ever played around with the tones on a Strat when using the N + M, you'll know what I mean- the two pots will interact such that turning one down will affect the other pickup. Giving the Bridge pup its own tone pot, instead of the middle pup, avoids this issue, since the N and Br pickups are not used together on a regular Strat- that's one of the reasons to do the mod in the first place.

This apparently isn't a big deal for most players (since the basic Strat design is probably the most popular electric design of all time). However, if you play with one (or both)tone pots dialed back, and you like to switch pickup settings on the fly, it can be a bit disconcerting.

There were good historical reasons why, back in the '50s, Leo didn't want to put a tone pot on the bridge pickup- the low-powered tube amps of the day had a response that was much skewed to the bass end of things,so the idea was to preserve the treble from the bridge pickup at all costs- and adding a tone to the bridge pup would cut the highs a little bit. Those reasons no longer hold true with modern amps, and lots of players want the tone control for the bridge pickup since they use it a lot for lead work. But I'd advise you to either put it on the bridge or on the mid but not both, so that you can do as John has suggested.

[flyingpig]

I dont think i understood what should i do.

The standard strat i saw for the pots was the one below.
i rewired as i think you suggested but probably im missing something.
I use an old twin reverb amp, im not willing to lose tremble from my bridge pickup but i think with no load pots 250k i will not, right??
Let me know
Thanks again

[newey]

No-load pots are a good idea, for the reason you have suggested.

Your latest diagram has a problem, but you're basically on the right track. You have correctly wired the tone controls, but you haven't wired them to the switches correctly.

With JohnH's suggestion for the tone pots, we're back to JA's original diagram, so take the output from the tone pots to the two poles of the Superswitch just as he shows it. IOW, where he shows N+ and B+, use the wires coming from your tone pots instead. Then, lose the wires from the regular 5-way switch to the tone pots.

[flyingpig]

I converted my 250k pots to no load with some nail polish trick i found on the net, i tested them and this thing works

and i made this diagram. How does it look?

[newey]

Your diagram looks fine to me. You may want to wait for a second set of eyes to look it over, a double check is always a good idea. Good Luck with your project!

[flyingpig]

Ok i'll wait for another opinion maybe JohnH who contributed a lot and start wiring.
Thanks so much for everything

And a few pics of the pickguard so far waiting to be wired. I made this wooden pickguard cause its easy to work with and i will print and image on top of it when i'll get an inkjet printer. I will send the exact dimensions of the cut need to be made to fit all these stuff inside after i wire and everything is fine in there!!

[JohnH]

If this is to try the seperate B and N tone pots, then the N tone is ok, but the lower end of the B tone cap should go to B- rather than direct to ground. This will keep them seperate when in series mode - more options and a slightly clearer tone.

As drawn, yes it will work but in series mode, the B tone would be acting as a master tone.

Also, just in terms of the wiring, I'd suggest it may work better with the pickup wires if N+ and B+ are connected directly to the 5 way at the other end of the yellow and green wires. But its electrically equivalent, so chose what is best practically. Doing this will also make it easier if you decide later to change one pot to a master tone.

[flyingpig]

Feb 22, 2015 15:16:42 GMT -5 JohnH said:

If this is to try the seperate B and N tone pots, then the N tone is ok, but the lower end of the B tone cap should go to B- rather than direct to ground. This will keep them seperate when in series mode - more options and a slightly clearer tone.

As drawn, yes it will work but in series mode, the B tone would be acting as a master tone.

Also, just in terms of the wiring, I'd suggest it may work better with the pickup wires if N+ and B+ are connected directly to the 5 way at the other end of the yellow and green wires. But its electrically equivalent, so chose what is best practically. Doing this will also make it easier if you decide later to change one pot to a master tone.

Is this what you are suggesting? cause i didnt get the last part
should i add a cap to the ground of the bridge between the pot and the switch?

[JohnH]

Yes so insert a cap along the grey wire from Btone pot to B-
Good luck with the wiring!

[flyingpig]

Success
Ok wiring over seems and sounds great so far, only problem i had was that i had a brand new fender 50s neck pickup, that after the wiring i found out has a broken leg, and until i found that i was checking my wiring like crazy. Anyway it was the pickups fault i replaced him temporary with a vintage noiseless and everything is Great.
Thanks again so so much for your help.
I have pictures of my project and dimensions of how to fit a switch to a Fender Stratocaster (Eric Claptons blackie) but i think its the same for all stratocasters.

[flyingpig]

Dimensions on the 1st img

[flyingpig]

And just for the record the final wiring for John S. Atchleys Double Barrel with two tone pots for stratocaster is this one:

[JohnH]

Great work!
If you would like to have this easily findable by others in the future, it would be great if you also repost todays stuff in the Schematics section, with a link to this thread and the JA original.

Also, do let us know what you think of the new tones once you have tried them.

[newey]

Yes, by all means, post this to Schematics. Great job, fp!

[flyingpig]

Ok i have played the tones and its great, so many possibilities and easy switching to them.
connection in series is great for rhythm and out of phase for solos.
Also for the pickups i used neck vintage noiseless, middle custom shop 69 and bridge Seymour duncan ssl-5,
I have used a few pickups the last years, i can say that for Fender stratocaster custom 69 is one of the best i have heard as truly 70s sound and Strat sound, seymour duncan is also great high output for bridge, vintage noiseless not my preference for strat, im waiting a fat 50s to replace it on the neck.
Thanks so much guys