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Post by lordquilton on Mar 3, 2015 7:15:35 GMT -5
Hello everybody, I've been muddling along with a Strat project for the last couple of months. I'm looking for a wiring diagram that's along the lines of the Suhr HSS, but without coil tapping. Edit- after looking around the forum, a variation of JohnH's Strat with 2 volumes seems like it might be more appropriate!My grasp of electronics is pretty poor. (And the longer I spend here, the worse it seems to get!)As far as hardware, I've got neck and middle single coils (Gold Lace Sensor) and a Kinman P90 in the bridge. The P90 really wants to see 500k, the single coils seem happiest at 300k. Right now it's a 300k Gibson master volume pot with a treble bleed. I have the Fender-type 5 way switch in there now, but I think I see a super switch in my future, read on. I have a no load pot acting as a blender for the bridge and neck pickups. I have a TBX tone control for a master tone. It's been modified from stock like this (Doc's Mod) - linkSo that's the first thing, two different resistance requirements. I tried putting a 500k resistor across the neck and middle lugs on the switch so the singles would see ~250k. I liked the more lo-fi sound, but I lost too much bass. The P90 was also effected, so I must have done something wrong I think. The next thing is the volume discrepancy between the single coils and the P90. It's actually not too bad, but I would like to at least try to even it up a little more. Could I use this- linkbetween the P90 pickup and the switch? Adjust the trim pot to match the volume of the single coils, then use a mini toggle to bypass the signal from the P90 straight to the switch or volume pot(500k) for the "full gonzo"? The other idea I have is instead of muzzling the P90, why not goose the single coils? I've got one of these for example- Villex BoosterIt's the same spec as the one he supplies to Tom Anderson, 4.8 db "boost". One concept is to hook this up to a mini toggle next to the 5-way. So I'm soloing on the bridge pickup, boost is off. Flick the 5-way to neck position and engage the boost in one movement, and vice versa. Would I need just an "on-on" for that? OR...(and here is where I really get out of my depth) can it be done that the Villex only effects the neck and middle? Thing is, the Villex works best when it's seeing 1M ohm. In other words, it's usually installed as the last thing before the output jack for best results. And just to be a complete pain in the backside, I would like to keep the Strat look ie. no concentric pots, only three visible knobs. I realize it would be simpler if I had 2 volume knobs, but the blender works really well with P90 and the Lace Sensor, and with a bit more experimentation (cap values) the TBX control is going to be really useful now that it's been modded. So, can it be done, and if it can, can it be represented with a wiring diagram please? I have tried to keep this brief, please do ask questions if you need clarification on anything.
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Post by JFrankParnell on Mar 3, 2015 23:02:22 GMT -5
The next thing is the volume discrepancy between the single coils and the P90. It's actually not too bad, but I would like to at least try to even it up a little more. Couldntcha just play with the pickup height a little?
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Post by newey on Mar 3, 2015 23:13:00 GMT -5
LQ-
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
There's a lot in your post, so let me try to break things down a bit. First:
Yes, if the P90 was affected, you did something wrong. The first step is to see how you wired this up. But it's not clear from your post if you are intending upon keeping these resistors anyway. Have you given up on this idea, or do you need to fix this issue?
Have you tried adjusting the relative heights of the pickups? If the difference is not much, lowering the P90 and raising the singles could give you the results you want.
You could do something like that. But adding a mini toggle will scotch your desire to keep a stock look. My personal inclination would be to ditch the blend pot and give the P90 its own volume- it's simpler, it solves your volume mismatch problem, and still allows for some blending of tones when used with the other volume pot (which is then presumably for the N and M single coils). If it's the N + B sound that you're after, make the P90 vol pot a P/P to turn the bridge pup "on" regardless of the 5-way setting
Quite correctly, you have put the word "boost" in quotation marks. As a passive device, the Villex unit (and other similar units) can't give you more output than the signal going in has. What it does do is to cut the highs and lows, thereby creating a relative "boost" of the mids.
If you want to put one of these on your guitar, by all means do so. But it sounds like a pretty awkward work-around for your volume discrepancies. People love single coil pickups for the chiming highs- why would you want to strangle off that end of the spectrum?
It could be put on only the two pickups. I'm not sure what you mean by it working best "when it sees 1MΩ". I'm not understanding where the 1M is coming from.
EDIT: And, I see J Frank has beaten me on the height adjustment suggestion . . .
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 4, 2015 7:08:40 GMT -5
Hi, thanks for the replies and the welcome! It's quite a repository you have here. I am asking a lot out of one guitar in a way; but then I've seen that schematic for chrisk's All Mode 'Caster in the Truly Nutzoid section now! I guess it's all relative, eh? I have tried messing with the pickup heights, and being Lace Sensors you can go quite high of course.The neck Lace is 5.85k, the P90 is 9.5k. Even with Laces jacked up, the volume difference was still obvious. And I lost the sound I prefer out of the single coils, so I went with setting the pickups where they sounded best (quite low)and worry about it later. I was thinking after this next wiring attempt I would revisit that area. Where I think I went wrong with 500k resistor in parallel was after the initial build (my first ever), I decided to add a treble bleed. The trials of the initial build still fresh in my mind, I didn't want to pull pots off the pickguard to do things properly, so (I think) I ran a wire from the centre lug of the tone pot back over to the jumper lug of the switch, splicing the 500k resistor side of the switch in between. Or the other thing that occurred to me was it was the the blender pot mixing things up. The whole monstrosity wasn't in there long at any rate. One or two mini toggles are fine for the looks. I don't mind push/pull pots either, though I think I prefer them for the less common tasks (like phase switching for example). They seem a bit awkward in the heat of the moment for me. It's more the stacked knobs/slider switches/chicken heads I'm trying to avoid! Now before I tackle the Villex, let me reiterate my understanding of electronics is woeful. So please don't take anything I say as an argument, I'm just looking for clarification. So it doesn't really boost mids, it cuts bass and treble for a perceived midrange boost. I get that. But 4.8 db is 4.8db isn't it? Over here Villex sound sample it seems to actually get louder as the guy goes through the positions on the rotary version. Though the last one in each series (7 db) seems more compressed than actually louder. The 1 meg ohm refers to the input of the amplifier or first pedal in the chain. No, I don't want the Villex running all the time, I see it more as something I would use in combination with overdrive when soloing. Like, I'm soloing on the bridge P90 (and that thing doesn't need any help!), and I flick to the neck for a different "colour" if you know what I mean. Well the two sounds are just too different. By itself the neck pickup sounds good with some drive, but when it's "A/B-ed" with the P90 it just sounds and " feels" thin. So the idea was to try to make them more on a par volume wise and character wise in the "all guns blazing" situation. Yes some Texas Specials would be a better match output wise, but then I lose the lower output clean sounds I prefer. Plus the hum too, of course! Or, Kinman makes a single coil version of their P90 ("The Big 9-0"), I could just give in and stick one of those in the neck. Maybe I will. But for now I'm trying to exhaust the possibilities with the elements I have. And you know, pots, switches and resistors are a lot cheaper than new pickups! Sorry, long again! I think the two volume pots is the direction to look in, yes?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 4, 2015 15:08:46 GMT -5
I can believe that the villex device is paasively boosting, in terms of output signal voltage, which is what an amp sees. It could do this by a combination of transformer action, maybe combined with resonance effects. The laws of physics remain intact, since in boosting voltage, available current is reduced, so power is not more than it was. But these effects, combined with added loading will tend to roll off treble, which you can hear.
But I think it sounds quite nice!
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 4, 2015 15:56:39 GMT -5
There was a discussion about it over at diyaudio.com . William Villex was involved. Seems like the conclusion was "it's an LC circuit where the pickups impedance is L, and that a step-up transformer of some kind is involved" I've used the quotation marks because I'm going from memory and I could easily have things mixed up.
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Post by newey on Mar 4, 2015 22:32:58 GMT -5
Well, if you're going to put the Villex unit on a switch, why not try it out? You will at the very least have a mid-boost effect, which can be a useful addition. And maybe it can also resolve the volume issues.
But, again, I will second your decision to head in the direction of dual volumes. Put treble bleed circuits on both (see JohnH's recommendations on that topic). You'll have solved the mismatch issue without some of the compromises inherent in the other methods you've mentioned.
You may also want to consider that dual volumes allows for two different pot values. Using a higher resistance value pot can brighten up the single coils, which also may help the match-up a bit.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 5, 2015 8:01:58 GMT -5
Unsure as to how to do it! Like this?
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Post by newey on Mar 6, 2015 22:43:30 GMT -5
lq- That looks OK to me, but I think we need to see the TBX wiring to be sure. I'm hoping someone else will weigh in as well . . .
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Post by JohnH on Mar 6, 2015 23:58:22 GMT -5
A couple of things I see:
If the push pull switch is for doing a 'bridge on' function, then the way it is wired, it will always be on when pushed in, and pulled out it will give control to the 5 way. Maybe use the inner lug instead of the outer lug if this is not intended.
I can't comment on the Villex wiring The layout of the 5 way is one type, but most have the offset between the two sides so the right/upper lugs on the picture are one click lower than the left/lower ones. Doesn't change the diagram if that is taken into account though.
The TBX has green wires that are connecting both volume pots together, so they wont work entirely independently, which will be evident if one is turned down a lot, and it would affect all settings.
You can clear that issue using the 5 way if you wire it like the first diagram here: 2 volume Strat
That one used a dual-ganged tone pot, but you could use a TBX wired between ground and the dark blue lug on the 5-way.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 7, 2015 8:03:35 GMT -5
Thank you both for your replies, I really appreciate them. Newey, the TBX is wired like this-
"The layout of the 5 way is one type, but most have the offset between the two sides so the right/upper lugs on the picture are one click lower than the left/lower ones. Doesn't change the diagram if that is taken into account though."I think I unwittingly flipped switch around in the software program. "I can't comment on the Villex wiring" Is that because the internals are an unknown quantity?
Here's the original from the Villex site-
I originally had the hot from the 500k pot spliced in after the hot output of the Villex, but I thought that would fudge the 1M load it wants to see. I guess the way forward with this piece of the puzzle is to contact William Villex. I will get back to you. "If the push pull switch is for doing a 'bridge on' function, then the way it is wired, it will always be on when pushed in, and pulled out it will give control to the 5 way. Maybe use the inner lug instead of the outer lug* if this is not intended."After a half hour of frowning, I can't decide whether it was just a question of orientation or that I have some sort of undiagnosed brain injury. Yes "bridge on" when pulled out is the intention. If the third drawing is not correct, could you please indicate the correct orientation in the following format- Wire from 5 way selector switch goes to lug xWire to volume pot comes from lug y*I have no doubt you are right John, but I just don't understand. If the inner lugs C and D are the common lugs, how does using them for both "directions" switch anything? "The TBX has green wires that are connecting both volume pots together, so they wont work entirely independently, which will be evident if one is turned down a lot, and it would affect all settings.You can clear that issue using the 5 way if you wire it like the first diagram here:"I'm relieved to hear that, I really like how the TBX works now with the mod. Yes, I've been studying your 2 Volume Strat wiring.(somewhat as the primates "study" the Monolith in "2001- A Space Odyssey") I would like a better understanding of how the two volumes pots in parallel(?) interact. Could you point me in the direction of some information on the subject? Back to the drawing board! Thanks again gentlemen.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 7, 2015 8:38:51 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Mar 7, 2015 9:37:42 GMT -5
LQ-
JohnH will have to fix that link, I think. These broken links mostly resulted when proboards switched our url a few years back.
What JohnH said about the TBX is the reason I wanted to see how you were doing that. If you wire it as you have shown, you will get interaction as he says. That may or may not be a big deal to you.
As for the Villex, you show it just as Villex says to do, so I think you're OK even though we don't know the internals. You're just treating it like a "black box"- wires go in, wires come out- which should be fine.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 7, 2015 16:20:00 GMT -5
5 way switch I think with switches that are two sided, as you have drawn and is normal, the poles are always top right and lower left. Most have the right side half a step lower than the right, some the other way. No problem there.
Push-pull The what you thought you drew picture is what I guessed you wanted. One thing to think abaout is where the bridge should be connected to when so engaged by this switch. I would take it to the hot outer lug of the neck/mid volume control. that way it is there when needed but is not influenced by the bridge volume.
TBX For all its dual-ganged, detented, complication, it still comes out with a ground connection and a connection to hot, like a more simple tone circuit. So you can sub it into almost any wiring design directly. Inevitably, it will be wired after the volume pots in this circuit. This is what LP people refer to as 50's wiring. It makes no difference at full volume, but gets slightly quirky at lower volume. But many people love it religiously. Not me, but there's not much choice in this case. It's not a really bad thing, just explore it and be aware. My 2Vol Strat used two ganged pots so that they could each be before their respective volume pot.
Use of Two volumes The classic 2 volume wiring is as on a Les Paul, two pickups each with a volume control hard wired to them, then the switch afterwards. In the middle position, both pickups and pots are active. If you turn one to zero, it shorts the output to ground and you get no sound, even if the other is turned up. Its not really a problem with an LP, because if you want to use the middle setting, it is because you want some of both pickups. In the pure bridge or neck settings, the other pickup with its pots, is completely cut out.
That is what you need with your three pickup design, and what you don't want is to have the neck/middle volume capable of cutting out the bridge pickup, even if you only select the bridge. That is what the diagram so far would do and why I pointed it out.
So, what my version does is to use the second side of the 5 way switch. One side of it selects N or M, and feeds that to one volume pot. The B pickup is directly wired to its own volume pot. then the second side of the 5 way selects between the two volume pot output lugs, so if you only select B, or N, NM or M, the unused pickups and volume pot are cut out.
Thanks for pointing out about the link. It was 9 years ago! I tried searching for it, and although I can find threads from that time, I have not yet found search terms that will bring it up. But I don't think there was anything much more to learn there.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 8, 2015 10:32:35 GMT -5
I've swapped the positions of the bridge and middle/neck volumes, pretty sure I kept the wiring straight though. The Villex switch is on the Neck/Middle push/pull for now. Still getting my head around this design; to be honest I'm not really sure what it does with regards to pickup selection. Hoping the diagram is sound so I can just wire it up and find out if I like how it operates.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 8, 2015 15:54:20 GMT -5
I think that is all ok apart from the bridge-on switching. The red bridge pickup wire should go direct to its volume pot (hot outer lug. Note currently the bridge is not connected since one set of three lugs on the pp switch is seperate from the other side.
How the bridge-on switch should work has some choices. Do you need/want to make in-between mixes of N and B? or just to have the full N+B tone.?
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 8, 2015 18:53:59 GMT -5
I have updated the diagram in my previous post so the bridge-on switch works(?)
Yes, I would like to be able to make in-between mixes of neck and bridge, and middle too if that's possible.
At the moment I have the no load blender pot, and I'm getting some really nice tele type tones that way (blending bridge into neck and vice versa). The sounds were bigger and better from the blender when it was a single 500k volume pot. The Laces by themselves were just a little too "open sounding" though. Now everything's on a 300k pot, and it's not a bad compromise, but the neck and bridge blended sounds aren't as big and "country" sounding as they were. I'm hoping the P90 having it's own 500k pot will help that.
I'm on the fence about whether to put the singles on a 250k or 300k pot. I notice you specify two 500k log pots in your basic 2 Volume strat. Is that because when they interact they're work at ~ 250k? In my version, would 500k Bridge and 300k Neck/Middle be more optimal than 250k Neck/Middle?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 8, 2015 20:55:11 GMT -5
Ok almost! Id put your new blue wire to the inner lower lug on the pp switch ( so it works when pulled). Take the other end direct to the output eg the dark blue 5way lug. Then the B only setting is not messed with by the NM volume pot. Your full range of NB and NMB mixes will be available in positions 5 and 4.
As to pot values;. 500k to 250k is only a small increment, so 250 to 300 is even smaller.
When setting mixes with two volumes, the treble bleed helps by not only keeping treble but also slowing down the taper. Since first drawing my diagram I have learnt more. The best values IMO to preserve tone is 1nF and 150k for a 500k pot, working in the range 5 to 10. For 250k or 300k pots, drop the resistor to 120k. If you most often use very low volume 4 and below, drop the caps to 0.68 or 0.82 nF
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Post by newey on Mar 8, 2015 21:59:59 GMT -5
I'm with John on the pot values, it's a small increment. Also bear in mind that pots for guitars are usually spec'd at 20% tolerances, plus or minus- which means that a nominal 250K pot could get out of the factory at anywhere from 200K to 300K, and your 300K could be between 240K and 360K. So, real world, there may in fact be no difference whatsoever between the two pots.
Of course, you can measure the actual values with a multimeter to check for how off a given pot may be. In practice, I don't see such wild swings in resistance values- even though they could be off by 20%, most are well within 10% variance. It's a good idea to check pots, as well as all components, before installing them.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 8, 2015 22:04:05 GMT -5
Madre de Dios! I feel like I'm taking the crazy pills with this switch! I got this from the Seymour Duncan site- This is an on-on switch we're talking about? My red wire from the pots hot lug goes to D (common). The blue wire as I have it is wired to F. So when the pot switch is down nothing happens. The signal at the volume pots hot lug goes through the variable resistor and on it's merry way to the light blue bridge lug on the 5 way. When the pot switch is pulled up, the signal from D comes out of F to the output lug of the N/M volume pot via the blue wire. You want the blue wire to go to the dark blue lug on the 5 way switch, I get that. But you want the blue wire to come from where on the switch? Maybe it's a terminology thing? To me, C and D are the "inner" lugs, and A B E and F are the "outer" lugs. So when you say take the blue wire to the inner lower lug you mean E?
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Post by newey on Mar 8, 2015 22:20:17 GMT -5
LQ-
Your diagram is correct for a toggle-style switch. The switch lever is like a . . .lever, so when the lever is "up", the lower sets of lugs are connected, and vice versa. A Push/Pull pot works differently- just the opposite, in fact. With the knob pulled up, the center common lugs are connected to the lugs closest to the body of the pot; when pushed down, the commons are connected to the lugs farthest from the body of the pot.
I've used "closest to the body of the pot" and "farthest . ." so as to avoid calling one set of lugs "upper" and the other "lower", since those depend on whether we're referring to up vs. down in the guitar, or with respect to the pot itself.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 9, 2015 4:07:17 GMT -5
I think newey has identified the source of a confusion.
In summary the bridge pickup wiring looks right blue wire from 5way dark blue lug to pp switch middle lower lug (based on switch as drawn) red wire from bridge volume centre lug to pp switch lower right lug.
Should do it! Dont forget a wire from ground to the bridge/strings
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 9, 2015 23:12:55 GMT -5
Here I was wondering why you weren't getting back to me- there's a page 2 now! Thanks for clearing that up guys. I've put the Villex diagram down here for my reference. It seems to be on a lever, so I've revisited the wiring I have on my diagram. Going to try hooking it all up tomorrow.
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Post by newey on Mar 10, 2015 5:11:07 GMT -5
And now, we have the same problem as with the other P/P. As shown, the boost will be "on" with the knob pushed in, and bypassed when pulled up. Look at the Villex diagram using the toggle switch. It is shown with the boost engaged (lever is "down" with respect to the diagram). In this setting, the toggle's center lug is connected to the topmost lug on the switch. In this configuration, the switch connects the center bottom-most lug on the Villex to the upper left-hand lug. Your P/P shows these two lugs connected when the pot is down- the opposite of what you want. Don't feel bad, this stuff is confusing. I can't tell you how many times I've had to put a meter on a P/P to see which way it connected. Do that enough times and it finally sinks in. And, many times I've gotten it wrong, and had to go back in and swap the wires around.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 13, 2015 18:15:39 GMT -5
Good catch Newey! I've decided to put the Villex on a mini toggle switch. If I wanted to make the neck pickup do out of phase, would I take that pickups outputs to the neck/middle dpdt, then onto the 5 way selector? Like this (Villex left out completely for simplicity's sake)
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Post by newey on Mar 15, 2015 21:31:29 GMT -5
Your phase switch looks OK, although the yellow wire is hard to see, I'm assuming it crosses the blue wire and connects to the lower left lug. If so, it's good to go.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 17, 2015 7:49:38 GMT -5
Thank you Newey. Your post came while I was in the middle of the job, so I chickened out of the OoP. Your advice about metering components before installation is well taken; turns out the "300k" master pot I'd been using was actually 257k. After metering all the pots I have, I went with one that measured 237k for the neck and middle. I don't know about anyone else, but that 20k makes a difference to me (for the worse). Or is it that 20k difference plus the effect of running two volume pots that I'm hearing as a little too dull? Edit- I took the TBX out of the circuit. I have to play some more in the morning to be sure, but those dual ganged tone controls are starting to look more likely.
Down the rabbit hole well and truly now... (oh yeah)What I'm noticing as I go down in resistance is neck and bridge blends get less worth the trouble. When I had a single 500k volume pot, the TBX and a blender pot, the bridge and neck "Tele" sounds were big and interesting. The same set up with the 257k master pot wasn't so great, and now with two volume pots it's fairly "why bother?" So what I'd like to try is two 500k volume pots, with a resistor in parallel via the push/pull on the neck/middle pot. Will this diagram work, and what are the caveats for resistors in parallel this way? I've put a 500k resistor in the drawing for now, but I'd like to try a few values in there too see if i can find the closest compromise. I realize now I've done this backwards again. The functionality should be resistor in parallel when the knob is pushed, resistor out of circuit for blend sounds when the knob is pulled.I'll try and fix it in the morning.
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Post by JohnH on Mar 17, 2015 14:17:49 GMT -5
The diagram seems OK to me once the pp switch lugs are swapped as you describe above. I wouldn't think having the resistor on its own switch will be found to be useful long term, but at least it will let you test it and then you might decide to wire it in full time or delete it. The nearest standard values to 500k are 470k or 560k. I bet there is no audible difference between those values.
Concerning dullness, one thing to watch for is the TBX control. If it is wired per the specs, the central detent does not correspond to a normal tone pot at max, but rather one significantly turned down to about 6. So I would turn the TBX up to 6 or 7, or maybe to max in order to check for dull sounds.
When you have just one pickup selected, there should be no penalty for two volume pots in this circuit, since the switch wiring cuts out the inactive parts. But when you have two selected, it should be like an LP in the middle position, but going to the 500k pots should provide extra quack.
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Post by lordquilton on Mar 18, 2015 21:41:24 GMT -5
So John, your 2 volume Strat has dual ganged 500k tone controls. I've been baulking at that, because I thought it meant stacked knobs on the front of the guitar. But could I just use this?Or does sharing the tone pot's resistor between the two volume pots fudge the deal? Edit- On further investigation it seems I've been confusing dual gang (single control of two separate resistances) with dual concentric (stacked knobs, the horror!) The Bourns unit in the link above is relatively expensive, can someone please confirm it's right for the job before I commit?)Edit2 - Never mind, bingo- Guitar Nuts 2 Thread from 2012I've ordered the part from Antique Electronic Supply for about 65% of what it was going for on Ebay.Going back to my previous post I definitely don't think the difference between the 257k and 237k pot was actually discernible. I made too many changes in one go and succeeded in confusing myself. I want to be more methodical, but there's also not enough hours in the day sometimes! So if I did want to wire a resistor in full time, where would it go in the circuit?
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Post by JohnH on Mar 19, 2015 3:50:10 GMT -5
I think you have sussed out what I was doing with the dual gang, two pots controlled by one knob. But they are quite common when they don't have the pp switch on them (I hadn't seen those until recently)
If you want to dial down the tone by adding fixed resistors, either they go across the outer lugs of a volume pot, or between the two wires coming out of a specific pickup
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