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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 1:41:56 GMT -5
Hello, I tried to use the original screws that came with the guitar, which were longer than the ones I fitted afterwards (just wanted to make some sustain tests), and it developed a crack around this point shown here : The photo here is just used for reference, to show where the crack is, I didn't shoot any photos of it (in my haste as usual), the crack is not easily visible by eye anyway. I just heard a "krkr" and then I realized it had developed a bump, a small anomaly around this point. I tried to squeeze strong wood glue (the one I always use : bison strong wood glue) in the neck screw hole, tried to hammer down the bump around the crack, let it sit overnight, but the fracture did not heel. The neck screw seems to hold real tight, there is no signs of losing grip, or turning freely, no matter the force I apply, but somehow I feel the problem is there. Should I just leave it alone or should I try to fix this? A friend of mine had excellent results by gluing the neck of his strat straight to the neck heel and forget all about screws. Should I think of eventually going this way? I am sure that the guitar's problem in day 1, a problem that I tried to solve in many different ways, was very simple : the neck screw holes were not drilled deep enough, in at least 2 screws, the two bridge-side ones. That's why using shorter screws seemed to remedy the problem. This led to a hell different bunch of thoughts, actions and solutions. Now I am where I am. The guitar can be very much playable I think, I measured the sustain again this morning and it was excellent, but I won't be calm till I fix this permanently. Cyn was right that the "wood sawdust" solution would be only temporary...
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Post by newey on Sept 8, 2015 5:08:21 GMT -5
Just my two cents' worth here, but as I see it, there are only two issues with any such problem, aesthetics and playability. In other words, does it look like crap? And, does it play like crap? So, you have already answered both those questions. Therefore: Yes. I think the true issue is that: If the two issues mentioned above are not a problem, then it is your urge to do something that is the problem . . . When we discussed the fix for this originally, we discussed those threaded machine screw inserts instead of screws. I've never used those, but then again, I don't recall ever removing a bolt-on neck unless it was to replace it. Every time a screw is turned into wood, it erodes the wood a bit, and repeated disassembly will eventually wear out the threads the screw has made in the hole. If you are going to be repeatedly mounting/remounting a neck, then wood screws are not going to be your friends. Well, there won't be any more removal of the neck for "sustain tests", will there? Seriously, I would not do this. Your friend's good results are what we call "anecdotal evidence"- one guy and one guitar is not a representative sample. Wood glue, bought in bulk, is a whole lot cheaper than screws. Fender makes a lot of Stratocasters. If Fender thought they could get away with only gluing the necks of Strats instead of screwing them on, they would have been doing exactly that 50 years ago. But they also have to look at the overall numbers, not just your one friend. If even as many as 5% of their Strats were warranty returns with neck joint problems, it's a disaster financially and in terms of dissatisfied customers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 5:29:20 GMT -5
Hi newey, I considered the inserts, I had bought them, but there was not enough clearance/offset for them to be installed. So I dumped the idea. The crack is there, and it is on a very critical part of the neck, exactly on the bottom of one of the screws. I cannot be cool and calm with that.
What I think of doing is : - drilling out/cleaning the hole where the screw goes in - removing the cracked wood by drilling perpendicular to the screw hole. - drilling out/cleaning the rest of holes and plug and glue all 5 holes (4 screw holes + the 1 from the previous step) - re-drill the 4 holes correctly.
As far a gluing the neck, I am pretty sure you know what your talking about cost-wise, but most people who tried it (judging from the web searches, etc..) liked the result. How about hide glue which can be reversible?
UPDATE : now that I think about it, this is more of a "collapse" than a definite crack. The wood in the shown spot seems like it moved due to the stress of the screw pressure and moved outwards. That's why (maybe) wood glue did nothing to fix this (not to mention its poor penetrating capabilities), seems like the said region developed some kind of "elasticity". Wood hide glue be the answer to it (being more easy to penetrate small holes), bringing the collapsed wood back into shape?
Could I bring it back in shape? Or should I go drilling/plugging the collapsed wood?
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Post by newey on Sept 8, 2015 10:54:54 GMT -5
Well, we'll await input from Cyn1 on any repairs. But it seems to me that if it's playable, you should leave it alone and not worry about it. If, in the future, it gets worse and affects playability, then you're left with plugging holes and redrilling them, but that's what you're talking about doing now anyway. So, why rush to do it?
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 8, 2015 11:39:45 GMT -5
I'm immediately drawn to anecdote here. What a surprise. I was working a young horse under saddle one day and having good results. I should have quit on a high note, but I wanted to see if he'd go a bit further that morning. Long story short, I wound up on the ground, broken finger and a pinched nerve in my back. When the sage old horse trainer picked me up, after catching my horse, he said something to me that I've never forgotten. "Son, the enemy of good is better." Let me say that again. The enemy of good is better.Which brings us here. I can't tell from the picture, but it looks like you're pointing to the crack at the glue joint between the walnut and the maple. Is that right? What does the crack look like from the bottom of the heel? If you haven't put the neck back on, some clear shots from the bottom of the heel and a better shot of the front of the heel would help a lot. When you say you tried to "squeeze some glue" into the crack, how did you go about doing it? Syringe? Does the crack, or did the crack spread at all? Did you clamp the repair while the glue was setting up? If there's no room to use inserts the best remedy may be drilling the existing holes out, filling them with a hard wood dowel and re-drilling. One more question. Did you ever shim this neck? If so, how? I'll wait for the pictures before I start muddying the waters. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 15:35:31 GMT -5
Hey man, your presence in the thread brings some relief, worst case! Which brings us here. I can't tell from the picture, but it looks like you're pointing to the crack at the glue joint between the walnut and the maple. Is that right? Right. Or almost, I can't tell, the bump's peak seems to be 1mm or so from the walnut stripe. A weak glue joint would definitely help develop this. What does the crack look like from the bottom of the heel? If you haven't put the neck back on, some clear shots from the bottom of the heel and a better shot of the front of the heel would help a lot. From the bottom, I can only feel it by hand, this bump, there is a sign of chip on the surface, tho. Unfortunately I got the guitar up and running again, I am feeling ashamed about the lack of pics, more on this later (the reason is that I am considering selling it and upgrading to the prestige line, which might be a stupid thing to do since this guitar is almost perfect. But those guitars retail at about 1300 EUR, and I had bought it much cheaper, + it really plays like a charm.) When you say you tried to "squeeze some glue" into the crack, how did you go about doing it? Syringe? Does the crack, or did the crack spread at all? Did you clamp the repair while the glue was setting up? Nothing fancy or clever, just squeezed the bottle's neck to the hole until the glue started overflowing. But it was so thick i doubt it reached anywhere of the collapsed area internals. The only way to spread the crack was to insert the big screw into the hole, but this would completely prevent any entrance to the area. From the chip alone in the heel's bottom there was no way I could insert any glue in there. I didn't clamp it, I could not find a way to clamp anything in this direction. If there's no room to use inserts the best remedy may be drilling the existing holes out, filling them with a hard wood dowel and re-drilling. Sure. How about the collapsed area, how should I treat that? One more question. Did you ever shim this neck? If so, how? The factory had a silly paper shim in there, which I removed in some step some months ago and never installed again. I'll wait for the pictures before I start muddying the waters. If I decide to not sell immediately, I will shoot many pics and post them here my friend!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 15:42:03 GMT -5
Hmmmm, maybe I should try to spread the crack by screwing into the hole, and use the syringe method from the bottom, then I should unscrew the screw, which would act like a "clamp" and in addition hammer the bump to "sit" into its place, getting back its normal shape.
When I can I will try to send photos back in neutral state and also under stress with the screw in.
Wouldn't the drill / plug method work for the crack as well? This is what I did back in the Carvin nut days.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 8, 2015 16:15:11 GMT -5
Hey man, your presence in the thread brings some relief, worst case! You say that now... So, help a blind old guy out here...is the crack vertical or horizontal from the fingerboard? From what you say, the crack is in the maple only, versus the glue joint? Does it look like it split just off the maple\walnut glue joint? This would make more sense, as the glue is much stronger than the wood it's bonding. OK, I'm lost. Is the bump on the heel facing the body, or underneath where it screws into the neck pocket? I assume the chip is next to the screw hole, right? Does the crack go down the bottom of the heel to the screw hole? Does it go any further? Much like newey said earlier in this thread, if it works as is, don't fix it. Especially if you're on the verge of selling it. As with most things around here, it's tough trying to fix something you can't put your hands on. I'd hate to steer you down the path that makes it worse rather than fixing it. Well, the odds are against any of the glue getting into where it would bond to the problem area. Without clamping the odds of it doing much more than filling a gap go down as well. If I was more comfortable on exactly where the "collapsed area" was I'd offer a few ideas. Again, if the guitar plays fine, I wouldn't worry too much about it. That said, depending on where the crack is, how deep it goes and how the additional stress from 7 string tension, it might be something to keep an eye on. Can you see the crack when you re-attach the neck? Does it look worse when you insert the screw? Does the screw where the crack lives feel easier to insert and tighten, or is it just like the other screws? Good. A simple shim at the base of the heel versus a full neck pocket shim will cause problems down the road. This is a lesson I just came to appreciate with my old Peavey bass...but that's another post all onto itself. That would go a long way in trying to figure out the best remedy. For now, just don't use it as a cricket bat and you might be fine. Happy Trails Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2015 23:34:45 GMT -5
How bad was that pinched nerve? I hope this is OK now. I don't worry about the finger as I have broken the hardest-to-heal bone a man can break : the scaphoid in the wrist.
About the lack of pics, I have failed to express (with my poor technical english) the situation, understandably the problem is still unclear to you. I will try to shoot some pics when I change strings, by removing the pickguard. From the screw holes side (back of the heel) there is absolutely no signs of crack or collapse. The collapse is only visible at the spot shown in the pic. The area close to the fretboard, and the opposite area in the back of the heel where the screws go in, seem fine. The problem is only at the bottom of the screw hole and towards the bottom of the heel shown by the red arrow, and is sensed/seen only at the heel's bottom, (the part shown in the pic).
That's why I think clamping is very hard to achieve.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 9, 2015 12:30:24 GMT -5
Still have the pinched nerve. The finger is better.
So, if I understand correctly, the "bulge" is only in the maple, and only pushing out from the front of the neck heel. Right?
If so, my first guess is the repeated in and out of the neck screws, all with different sizes as I recall, seems to have split the maple side at the glue joint. Did you ever slide anything into that hole to allow the screw to gain a better hold? IE: toothpick, small piece of wood...etc...?
If this is what I think it is, it's not hard to fix. Your idea of using a slightly larger screw inserted just enough to allow a syringe to squeeze glue into the crack should work. Don't go too nuts, as you're going to need that hole again. You just want to open the crack enough to get the glue in, not make the problem worse. Clamping along the long side of the heel to close the crack should be enough to put things right. Then just sand the bump if it bothers you.
If I got it wrong, disregard that last paragraph.
The only thing that might be of some concern is whether this crack has begun to lift the fingerboard. That's not the end of the world...just a lot more work.
I'll wait for the pictures. Take them outside, as the sun does a great job pointing out the details.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
PS: Your English is fine. It beats the Hell out of my Greek.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 12:35:55 GMT -5
alrighty! here are the pics : The pics were taken with the said area under stress : with the neck screw in full depth, as can be seen the neck is mounted. If I used the original (wider and longer) stock screw the problem would be seen more clearly, but hey, that's how this issue started, and I mean that in many interpretations, meaning the various mutations of the problem over the months, with the last one, being this very screw causing the wood to move or collapse, (even a little), somewhere in the middle of the screw's length. A view from above. Some light chipping and a small bump can be seen : And a view from the front : I draw a small eclipse where the collapse/bump can be sensed more by touching it : I didn't disassemble the neck to shoot more pictures as there was nothing to show from the back of the heel (where the neck heel screw holes are). No signs of crack or collapse, everything happened in the internal part of the neck. Nothing near the back of the heel where the screws go in or the fretboard side. So Cyn1, its your turn, I have done some homework, I have some possible solutions , eehmmm 2 , if we include the obvious : do nothing, but I would like to hear your ideas on this. Having read a bit about HHG, and having first hand experience with Epoxy, PVA and CA, I think that , and taking into consideration that "entrance" from the chipped side shown in the eclipse above is impossible, the best solution would be to use HHG. PVA is too thick, and CA dries too fast. But since i have zero experience with HHG and no tools, I would consider classic wood glue that I use (Bison strong wood glue, PVA type), by doing : 1) warm the PVA it a little bit 2) poor it in the screw hole, not by any syringe but by applying the glue bottle's neck to the hole and pushing as much as I can. 3) Screw the current screw all the way in, forcing the captured glue to find the shortest path out .... -> the crack!! 4) Unscrew, re-fill similarly with wood glue again, and now screw all way in with the initial suspect the wider longer stock screw which created the problem. This will push the glue even further. Maybe step 3 is foolish, maybe not, any way i gotta act fast. 5) Stop when ideally I see some glue showing up in the chipped/bump area in the drawn above eclipse. 6) When that happens, the screw(s) have done their job. I have to unscrew fast, and with a soft hammer, try to push the wood around and in the eclipse to take its original form. Maybe somehow apply some weight on the top, very tricky since the last thing I want is destroy the neck. Here I just have to pray that the wood will retake its original shape, even if that means, me staying awake for 12 hours holding it down. I read what you mentioned about along the long side of heel, and I would like to know your idea on this. I can't think of any tool I have I could have this clamped at the eclipse spot, pushing it inwards. The other 3rd alternative I thought of is to remove the wood in the collapsed area, which means drilling all the wood from in the eclipse and till the neck screw out and plugging with a dowel/plug (perpendicular to the neck screw hole). This will IMHO definitely enhance the strength there, is the above method proves ineffective. About re-using that hole that you mention, the intention (after repairing the collapse/crack), is to plug re-drill all holes anyway. (and hopefully forget about this guitar, there are other guitars out there to break... emmm i meant fix) Well? does that sound normal ? or should I search that phone of my psychiatrist I went some years back?
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 9, 2015 14:08:06 GMT -5
The pictures help quite a bit. I'm still wondering what the crack looks like from the bottom, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
First off, HHG (hot hide glue) is more mojo than anything. It's messy, nasty to work with and doesn't hold anywhere near as well as Tite-Bond.
OK, let's work through your list:
Essential. It ain't gonna flow unless it's warm. Diluting with water more than 5% will reduce the bond strength. You're gonna need a syringe. Don't worry, you won't have to comb the dark back alleys for one, just look for a livestock supply house. I prefer the #18 or #20 x 1/2" needles, but I'll leave it to you to do the metric conversions.
Put the glue in an airtight container, boil some water, turn off the heat and let the container float in the hot water for about 5 minutes. That normally does the trick. Fill the syringe and work quickly. Make sure you have the crack spread, the clamps ready and no one in your way. You have about 2-3 minutes before the warm glue cools and will plug the syringe.
BTW: PVA = Polyvinyl acetate...or what the rest of us call common wood glue.
No. Just no.
Probably not going to happen. The glue may penetrate part of the crack, but it's not viscous enough to make its way all the way through.
Again, you could use the "Force", but you're not going to like the result. About all you're gonna do is fill the screw hole with glue.
That's just before you realize you've covered all the newspaper on your table with leaking glue...provided you put the newspapers down first...not to mention all the overflow that ran all over the fingerboard. You just aren't going to get a tight enough seal with the bottle over the hole to push it into the crack. The path of least resistance is right back out the hole you're pushing it into.
OK, it looks to me like the crack runs perpendicular to the fingerboard through the maple outside piece. Unless I missed it, you just clamp the sides. If it runs parallel to the fingerboard, take a radius sanding block, put it over the fingerboard and clamp across the sanding block and the bottom of the neck heel. It only needs to stay clamped 2-3 hours. You could hold it for 12 hours, just don't drink anything during that time...
Not a bad idea. Probably want to jump up a size. I'm not intimately familiar with metric wood screw sizes, but make sure you use the proper drill bit size for the new screws. Most screw manufacturer posts these charts on their website, so it shouldn't be hard to find the right drill bit for your new screw size.
The new size may ride a little higher in the Ibanez screw ferrules on the back. When I redid the little Ibanez Mikro I jumped a size and they rode up a bit out of the ferrules. They never approached the top of the Forstner hole, so no harm, no foul.
Not unless they know how to fix guitar necks.
Let me know if I glazed over something and need to clarify anything.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 14:15:36 GMT -5
The pictures help quite a bit. I'm still wondering what the crack looks like from the bottom, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Hi Cyn, thanx for your answer, haven't read it yet, will do right away. Just wanted to tell you that from the bottom (where the wood screws go???) everything seems normal.... I'll confess : Besides not being there anything to see from the holes POV, no crack, I didn't unscrew the neck, because ... after the collapse... I measured the longest sustain on 24th fret : 5 SECONDS!!!..... As you understand, I wanna live my myth a little longer !!! Gonna read your answer now!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2015 14:32:45 GMT -5
Thanx a LOT! Just some questions. OK, it looks to me like the crack runs perpendicular to the fingerboard through the maple outside piece. Unless I missed it, you just clamp the sides. If it runs parallel to the fingerboard, take a radius sanding block, put it over the fingerboard and clamp across the sanding block and the bottom of the neck heel. It only needs to stay clamped 2-3 hours. You could hold it for 12 hours, just don't drink anything during that time... Why do you have this idea? If that was the case there would be no traces of bump around the eclipse area. The crack runs parallel to the fingerboard some 1.5cm under (0.6") below the bottom and running from the screw hole to the end of heel expressed as the anomaly around the eclipse shape shown in the pic. Nothing can be seen either from the fingerbpard POV its opposite side the bottom of the heel. The crack is inside the maple, not in the surface, parallel to the walnut line as you have spotted. The only signs of the crack is the eclipse area shown in the pics. Am I missing smth? And smth, else, what if I screw with the bigger hole to make the crack (around the eclipse) open up, and still no place to stick the syringe nozzle in? What then?
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 9, 2015 16:08:53 GMT -5
Well, you make a damn fine point there, young man. This would be a world of a lot easier if I could put my hands on this one.
So, if the only sign of fatigue\failure is the bump, what happens if you take a chisel and flatten out the hump?
So, the crack runs parallel with the fingerboard, huh... Well, putting in a larger screw should hold it together without surgery. Just make sure you drill the hole straight and to the proper size for the new screw size. Gonna use the evil "drill press" phrase here... As long as the fingerboard hasn't lifted, and the crack runs parallel to it, and the maple hasn't let go of the walnut, the compression provided by the screw should keep everything together just fine. I've seen a lot worse than this make it for years without failing.
I'm leaning more and more towards newey's idea of just leaving the sleeping dog lie. Remember, "The enemy of good is better!"
And you can keep the sustain thing going as long as you want. Far be it from me to stomp on someone else's mojo...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by JohnH on Sept 9, 2015 16:58:25 GMT -5
Just thought Id 'chip' in briefly.
The two screws at the end of the neck (where this issue is) have less to do than the two nearest the head. The head-end screws are fundamentally required to resist tension, or else the string pull would flip the neck up off the body. With the head-end screws in place, with strings installed, the region around the two end screws is already in compression, even if there were no screws there ar all.
All 4 screws share a shear force from the strings trying to pull the neck towards the bridge. The total shear on the screws is about 45-45 kg, actually not very much for these screws in hardwoods and it is pulling in the opposiye direction to your fault, and mainly affects wood at the neck/body contact surfaces, rather than the deeper wood affected by this fault.
The final thing the screws do is to further precompress the surfaces to close up tiny gaps and further lock it all together. Your screws are still achieving this if you are able to tighten them normally, and as demonstrated by your good sustain results.
All of that is just to support the notion that this issue probably has no bearing on either the strength nor the performance of the guitar, in case that would allow more reassurance in case you choose not to risk further damage by trying to 'fix' it!
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 9, 2015 17:02:51 GMT -5
What he said... Talks pretty, doesn't he... HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 1:21:19 GMT -5
Just thought Id 'chip' in briefly. The two screws at the end of the neck (where this issue is) have less to do than the two nearest the head. The head-end screws are fundamentally required to resist tension, or else the string pull would flip the neck up off the body. With the head-end screws in place, with strings installed, the region around the two end screws is already in compression, even if there were no screws there ar all. All 4 screws share a shear force from the strings trying to pull the neck towards the bridge. The total shear on the screws is about 45-45 kg, actually not very much for these screws in hardwoods and it is pulling in the opposiye direction to your fault, and mainly affects wood at the neck/body contact surfaces, rather than the deeper wood affected by this fault. The final thing the screws do is to further precompress the surfaces to close up tiny gaps and further lock it all together. Your screws are still achieving this if you are able to tighten them normally, and as demonstrated by your good sustain results. All of that is just to support the notion that this issue probably has no bearing on either the strength nor the performance of the guitar, in case that would allow more reassurance in case you choose not to risk further damage by trying to 'fix' it! Thanx John, What you say is absolutely true for strats. But for Ibanez AANJ there are two little peculiarities which differentiate from the strat design : There is no neck heel stop, and the trem is floating, allowing up to 2 tones up, (e.g. in G). So the four screws besides helping the obvious purpose of holding the neck to the body, also serve keeping the neck away from the pup cavity. Here is where the significance of the two screws towards the neck-end lies. For a 7-string as this one, as you correctly said the load with a light string gauge is about 44.3Kg and with a regular light about 54 Kg. Pulling the trem all the way up, can momentarily produce a force as much as double that figure (around 80Kg), and in this case all screws are working in holding the neck to the body, since the force applied is parallel to the neck, pulling the neck towards the bridge. The slightest looseness in the neck joint can really affect tuning stability. As you say, the signs for the moment, are definitely towards letting the guitar as is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 1:30:06 GMT -5
As long as the fingerboard hasn't lifted, and the crack runs parallel to it, and the maple hasn't let go of the walnut, the compression provided by the screw should keep everything together just fine. I've seen a lot worse than this make it for years without failing. Thanx Cyn, you said the magic word here that I failed to use in my previous posts : COMPRESSION. That's what has happened, I believe, and not a crack, I pretty much suspect. This compression/collapse/crack is neither near on the fretboard side (not lifted), nor the surface from where the screws go in. The force went : - parallel to the fretboard - perpendicular to the frets - inside the maple , from the middle of the screw length towards the end of the heel, shown by the eclipse. So its all inside the wood, and the only signs can be seen in the minimal chipping and bump around the eclipse area.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 1:34:05 GMT -5
So, if the only sign of fatigue\failure is the bump, what happens if you take a chisel and flatten out the hump? That's a good question. What's behind the bump? If the guitar starts having problems, I will have to check that. For the moment, I will leave the guitar in this state. All signs from nature (you guys being a big part of it) say to leave it as is.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 7:39:27 GMT -5
Cyn1 I was hasty and far from precise. Here is what really happened. The situation is now clear. Now the problems : - I cannot remove the cracked piece neither from the side towards the heel's end, nor from above. I tried to hammer it out, careful not to damage it, but was not successful doing so. Its shape is such that it cannot be removed neither from the side nor from the top (as can be seen from the pics shot from above and front). Surely using a larger screw (and perhaps sanding) will make a nice solution. However I was wandering if there is any hope so that I can glue that back in place.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 12, 2015 11:05:30 GMT -5
Well, these pictures make it quite obvious what happened. If, as I recall, there were different sizes on the screws (found the same thing on my nephews Epiphone) in the neck, all it would take is putting the wrong larger size screw in that hole and it pushed the wood out at the weakest point as it was tightened in. Guess you don't know your own strength, Greek. With the hole that close to the front of the neck it created what would appear to be an obvious point of failure...especially on a 7 string guitar...
So, fixing it... Re-gluing the original piece would make the most sense. If it's too tight to come out easily getting any glue in there is going to be impossible. When you say you tried to hammer it out, how did you do it?
Ideally, the best fix would be to remove the piece completely, check the area for further possible cracking, then re-glue that piece back in. I'd still plug and redrill the screw hole to the correct screw size.
Reality Check: I have to say, if this was my guitar I'd be looking to sell this thing as fast as I could. We're talking a New York Minute here. It's been nothing but problems since you got it. If Ibanez designed this 7 string with such a series of obvious design flaws, I'd be worried what else they missed.
Since I know you're not wired that way, the first thought that comes to mind is plugging the neck screw hole and re-drilling. After you drill the hole for the plug the pushed out piece may move back into place easier. What I mean by that is once the hole is enlarged for a plug, it might be easier to tap the piece flush with the front of the heel. If it still won't move, I'd take a sharp chisel and flush it with the front of the neck once the plug is glue in place. The glue on the plug should be enough to hold the offending piece in place and the plug will keep the screw in place, as it has enough purchase around the radius to hold the screw to the neck. Make sense?
This video is probably a bit more information than you wanted, but this is the right way to plug the hole:
So, to summarize, find a hardwood dowel and drill the neck to accommodate the dowel. Before you insert the dowel check to see if the pushed out piece taps back flush with the front of the neck. Take a block of hardwood and put it over the pushed out piece and try and tap it flush with the front of the neck. If it does tap back flush, you'll need to run the drill through the hole again so the dowel goes in without pushing the damn piece out again. If it come all the way out then use a light brushing of glue and place it back flush with the front of the neck. Use a hardwood block and a light hammer to move it into place if necessary. No BMF metal hammers or screwdrivers, and tap it, don't wail away on it, OK! If it doesn't move easily, leave it, glue in the plug, chisel or file and sand the piece flush with the front of the neck. Redrill for the correct screw size and you're done.
Let me know what you think and I can work out based on what tools you have, or what tools your friends have. Hopefully one of them has a drill press... (there's that friggin' word again...)
You do keep me in business, Greek.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2015 11:58:02 GMT -5
I tried to remove the piece, first by trying to tap it outwards from the screw hole : no luck, and then from the exposed bottom to tap it upwards : no luck again. Just looking at its shape, kind of trapezoid from the top view, some zig-zag from the side view, it is obvious this thing won't come out without drilling some part of it out,
Cyn1, you made perfect sense. I forgot to say that as is, I can tap it back in place easily. No problem there.
Your idea having the new enlarged dowel glued to the piece will actually hold the piece in place, was just brilliant.
About the guitar giving problems, I guess we are too strict judges . It is not the guitar's fault that I over-did it with the screw. The seller Thomann obviously sold me a b-stock item as new. Its price was about 400+ EUR less than it retails today. I am sure its problems were reflected in the price.
I repeat that your idea is about to be the main pillar around which the repair will be done. But I was wondering is there is still hope to insert some glue on the sides of the crack. I mean trying to do so, will be a good experiment and hurt nothing. I am thinking of watering and warming (10-20%) some Bison wood glue (white wood glue PVA-type), and then use this method :
1) screw the larger screw in , pushing it as much as it can, exposing as much of the piece as I can, unscrew the larger screw out 2) apply regular wood glue (not watered, not warmed) to the exposed parts of the piece 3) tap the piece into place, this will make the contacts less firm, giving more chances to the thinned and warmed wood glue to fill gaps and spaces 4) pour thinned watered and warmed wood glue in the hole 5) holding the piece in place somehow, screw in the thinner screw, and force the thin glue to "navigate" thru all the spaces it can 6) keep taping the piece to stay in place
repeat 4-6, some more times, 2-3 times, hoping for more glue to reach as much as it can.
7) Now that I did the best I could for the interior part of the crack line, repeat step 2) for the exposed part, including the area in the screw side, with thick glue 8) tap it back to place for the (hopefully) last time.
Finally apply your instructions.
whactha say ?
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 13, 2015 0:37:39 GMT -5
If the piece won't come out, the glue won't go in. Trust me, the easiest shot to keep the integrity of the ruptured wood is the get it to glue to the dowel. If you look at it, it split on the walnut side of the glue joint. Ideally, you'd chisel out the offending member, clean out the trench, fabricate a new piece, glue it in, chisel, sand or file it flush and then drill for the dowel pin.
Or, take the easy way out as I detailed in the previous post. As long as the new screw hole is drilled to the proper size in the dowel pin you'll probably keep the guitar for 20 more years and have no more issues, as the only real problem the rupture presents now is a poor purchase of the neck screw.
Anything else may or may not work. To try the steps you detailed would take more work than leaving it alone and probably offer no more benefit from your labors. I know this looks like a lot more work than you want, but it takes less time to do it right than to do it twice.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 0:53:56 GMT -5
I read you. I like the removal idea. There has to be a way. How about "chiseling" the thing out, by forming a virtual rectangle around the piece, then taking out, cleaning the place, and then putting it back, assessing where wood was lost due to the chisel, maybe make up for it some way, and gluing the whole thing back together. About making a new piece, would that be easy with my conventional tools? I am definitely short of a chisel. I'll try to find the smallest available. i'll take my time this time Cyn. Rest assured I won't blow up the house while you are away.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 13, 2015 1:10:41 GMT -5
I'm more concerned about the guitar neck than the house. I'm certain your wife will protect the house...
As I said before, what you want to do is create a good solid grip for the neck screw. The piece itself is not as important as the screw doing its job.
If you have to destroy the piece getting it out, you'll have to make a new one. Not impossible, but it can be time consuming.
As I said, drill the pilot hole for the dowel pin. That may give you enough room to get the piece out by driving it into the larger hole. This will save you time in the long run, and you have to drill the hole for the dowel pin anyway.
The video shows a small dowel pin. You can go larger than Dan suggests, but not by too much. If the piece goes into the hole easier than it does out, that just might be the ticket.
Make sense?
HTC1
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2015 1:21:06 GMT -5
definitely. I'll try to see if I can tap the piece from the sides into the hole. If there are some good indications on this, then the pilot hole idea might work. Ok, you got me cheating. here are the logistics of the thing. In order to do a super proper job (plug re-drill all holes, which involves drill press vice, drill press etc... I have all those, but can't find a place to use them), I'd have to wait till the family goes for vacations..... next summer. So, I thought I might do smth in the right direction (just fix the piece somehow, without the pilot hole, which implies plug re-drill), while still having the guitar in playing condition.
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Post by cynical1 on Sept 13, 2015 1:25:36 GMT -5
Wait until next summer. Seriously, trying something you know isn't right won't make things better. Better to just put it back together and wait until you can do it right.
Act in haste, repent in leisure.
Happy Trails -
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 7:44:46 GMT -5
Act in haste, repent in leisure. Dear Cyn, I made the big mistake to try to remove the piece by using a small (<=0.4mm) blade. And then followed the even bigger mistake of trying to glue it back. Needless to say I created a big mess, all I am left is with a gap that I cannot think of how to fill. The glue says to apply some 2Kg/cm2 for 15mins. Now given the geometry of the specific problem, I cannot on earth think of a way I can formulate the shelf as orthogonal as I can, and then fit a new shaped piece of wood that would fit exactly and tight enough. In short, I screwed it big time. Is there any rescue? If I was an experienced tech, I would cut a slightly ( I am aware of the titanium rods in there) bigger cuboid, and then try somehow to fit and glue the equally sized piece. Given the geometry, pressure can be applied only from the top (fretboard). For the sides only the pressure of the contact can be used. Hmmmm... maybe it should also include the hole area as well? That is, extend the piece to the hole itself, thus making it serve as a plug? The contact area with the rest of the neck heel's wood will be bigger, the strength bigger, and the whole thing will be better. smth like this : I don't have a pic of the current situation, this was drawn on the before yesterday pics.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2015 9:10:25 GMT -5
This video is probably a bit more information than you wanted, but this is the right way to plug the hole: If you notice he glues the dowel with ... super glue.... I personally hate super glue for wood, since it lacks any elasticity.
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