ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 18, 2015 6:10:52 GMT -5
Hi geniuses I have a schecter tempest HH and have never got away with the 2 vol/ 1tone idea. I want to change it and while I filter through the 60 (!) pages of threads here perhaps someone could point me towards the solution. The other issue is I really like the sound of single coils, after using humbuckers for years I realise I dont actually like the full humbucking sound but appreciate the hum cancelling. So would something such as split or parallel be more useful to me. I also really like out of phase sounds needs: HH 3 way switch - N, NB, B master volume 2 tone Is it possible to have one switch for series/parallel, one for parallel split and one for phase? I dont think so, so I think a compromise would be: tone 1 switch - phase for neck tone 2 switch - phase for bridge master vol switch - master parallel/split or master series/parallel any ideas would be greatfully considered If I like the results I will be investing in some new pickups - Note: I really like the clangy/bell sounds of a P90 rather than the tighter series humbucker sound if this helps focus any discussion help
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 18, 2015 6:27:01 GMT -5
I would imagine that it would start from something like this - but with added phases and split/parallel options using the taped up wires
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Post by newey on Oct 18, 2015 10:30:45 GMT -5
This sounds like it's wired like a Gibson Explorer. With that wiring, there is interaction between the two volume controls when both pickups are selected. The diagram you link to will do the same thing with the tone controls. I think a better solution is to use a dual-gang pot for the master volume; both gangs of the dual-gang pot are then wired just as if they were individual volume pots, and are wired before the 3-way switch. IOW, it's wired exactly like an LP is wired, but you have both volumes on a single knob.
But, there aren't any dual-gang push/pulls*, so if you do that, you'd have to lose one switch. I take it you are planning on using push/pull pots for the switching?
A parallel-wired HB will still be hum-cancelling. I personally like the sound of that, but it doesn't really mimic a single coil pickup to my ears. Splitting the coils of a HB won't be hum-cancelling when only one is operating, but you can make a pair of split coils hum-cancel by selecting the right coils when you've got both pickups operating. Of course, the whole debate is moot if you're going to pull the HBs in favor of P90s anyway.
Are you talking about individually putting the coils of each HB out of phase, or are you talking about putting the bridge pickup OOP with the neck? If it's the latter, you only need one phase switch, and it doesn't matter which pickup you put it on. If it's the former, you will get very low output when two HB coils are OOP with each other, I don't imagine that you would find that useful, but YMMV.
Again, not clear what you mean. We could have one switch that puts the neck HB in either series or parallel with the bridge pickup. If you mean you want to be able to simultaneously switch both HBs from internal series to internal parallel, that can be done both it takes 4 poles on the switch, and so can't be done with just a single P/P switch.
If you want to have split coils, one P/P can split both HBs to single coil operation, and the coils can be chosen so that you have hum-cancellation in the middle position of the 3-way pickup selector. A second P/P could then be used to put the neck OOP with the bridge. A dual-gang pot, if you go that route, wouldn't have a switch. If you decide to use a regular pot for the master tone, a third P/P could be used to add the neck in series with the bridge, or to have either the neck HB in internal parallel/series, or the bridge HB, but not both.
But, again, not much point in talking about splitting coils if you're going to turn around and pull the HBs in favor of single coil pickups anyway.
*Seems to me that Son-O might have found one such from China, but that may have been a concentric pot, I don't recall. In any event, they're rare.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 18, 2015 11:43:50 GMT -5
so Newey some clarification needed. I have been playing this afternoon with the soldering iron and my solution will be HH with 2 tones 1 vol so like the seymour duncan diagram above but with the following: each tone will switch between parallel and split single coil using a push/pull for the respective pickup - - this should give tele-ish sounds in the split position
- & hum cancelling in the centre split position
- & parallel for the 'humbucking' position
the tones will combine into the (master) volume with a reverse phase for one pickup (OOP) if it is possible using a third push/pull on the volume? I hope this makes more sense and is more achievable, and if it sounds good then either upgrade to 2 new Humbuckers, or bridge humbucker and neck p90 making the volume split push/pull redundant but easy to adapt incidentally this is the original schecter diagram just for reference, though my split was originally different making the neck split in all positions, some quality control at the factory I fear schecter_TEMPEST_CUSTOM.pdf (550.91 KB)
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Post by newey on Oct 18, 2015 12:04:51 GMT -5
OK, got it. I note that the original Schecter diagram doesn't make it look like the split coils would be hum-cancelling in the center position, unless they swapped the magnets on the coils (i.e., one slug coil is N, the other is S) for the neck and bridge pickups but left the wire colors the same (which would be a very odd thing to do.) OK, so you want both HBs internally connected in parallel when they're not in SC mode? You do understand that's not the "usual" way to wire HBs, that they're ordinarily wired together in series? I guess that can be done with a P/P, I don't recall ever drawing that up so we'd have to take a look at it. The phase switch is no problem, it can be put on either the bridge or the neck pickup and can occupy any P/P you like. It is essentially a separate module. It will be wired immediately after the pickup, the output then goes on to your tone control for that pickup. A while back, I posted a reference diagram for the phase switch module: So,you can easily incorporate that into the SD diagram as I have described above. As to the parallel/split switching, I'll have to look at thta, it may be later in the day before I can draw something up. Meanwhile, real work calls . . . you know, the kind one is paid to do.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 18, 2015 14:27:55 GMT -5
Thanks for the phase switch - though it is not the norm to do so, I guess I could take it after the tone control for one pickup, which would allow me to put it on the vol p/p, right?
Yeah I understand the parallel is not the usual way for Humbuckers, but unless it is impossible I would like to try it.
I have a HSH nighthawk with a 3 position for split/parallel/series and the parallel is the one I think I prefer, the full fat humbucker gets too tight with too much bottom and a lack of clarity in the mids for my use. But as I say, if it is not possible to have parallel/split p/p on each pickup then I will go series/split as a compromise and have them hum cancelling in the middle position.
thanks for your help so far.
Im going to play with the layout again now and try the phase switch, but at the minute Im having a difficulty I cant work out - the rewired neck tone works as expected, but the bridge tone works as a volume and in conjunction with the main vol - clearly Ive wired something up with one eye shut :~|
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Post by newey on Oct 18, 2015 19:27:32 GMT -5
OK, here's a module for the parallel/Split wiring. This is easily done, I wasn't thinking too clearly this morning when I said I'd have to look at it. Note that it only uses one half of the switch, so you could wire the other pickup to the other half of the switch and do both pickups at once. But of course individual switches will give you the flexibility of having HB-SC combos. Now, this splits to the upper coil(using SD wiring colors, this is the N coil). I think you should check the polarity of the magnets (a toy compass works) to be sure that SD isn't swapping things around. Assuming not (as I suspect), then the other pickup will need to be wired so as to select the S coil (green/red wires). To do so, the wiring just switches around so that the white wire goes to the center lug of the switch instead of the red, and the red just connects to the black output wire. Probably the best is if you draw up a complete diagram like the SD diagram, but incorporating the 2 parallel/SC modules plus the phase module. we can then double check your work. You can put any of the three switches on any of the P/P pots. The only consideration is your ease of use, that is, the ones you use most should be the ones closest at hand. But sometimes, having the P/P up can result in banging it while strumming. If that's an issue for you, then the least-used option should be on the one you'd hit. Whether the phase switch goes before or after the tone won't really matter, it just needs to be after the pickup's parallel/Sc switch and before the 3-way selector switch.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 19, 2015 14:16:35 GMT -5
Brilliant. I think I will put the parallel switches on separate controls for tonal variation in the middle selector position.
I tried out a different version which had the split/series combination but the level jump was quite large (assuming I had done it right)
The only thing is the colouring. They are duncan designed pups, but on the original scheme the red and white are tied togethe...is this the same colouring as your scheme, so my green will be the same as the green in your drawing?
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Post by newey on Oct 19, 2015 16:59:27 GMT -5
I used SD colors. The red and white go together for the series HB wiring but the parallel is of course different. And yes, going from a split coil to series HB will be a bump up in output. OTOH, you may not find much difference between the parallel HB and the split coil in terms of tone.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 20, 2015 13:58:11 GMT -5
HI All Here is my first attempt - thinking of the p/ps as modular really helped; genius! The only thing I was really unsure about was the return from the switch to the volume, so I think there may be one or two mods to come from you guys. also - noted the comment about the parallel/split difference and I am inclined to agree, though my nighthawk has a lovely change in out put between the two settings. Im going to give it a go split/parallel and if it doesnt work out I will reconfigure and possibly go split/series anyhoo here is the circuit, any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by newey on Oct 20, 2015 16:12:09 GMT -5
Pretty good so far, but I don't see the white wires from the HBs- yu only have three wires shown from each one (I used gray on my diagram for visibility, but whatever, I can't see where the white wires go). It does matter when the phase switch wiring is integrated with the bridge pickup switch and wiring.
Also (and this one is kind of on me, since I neglected to mention it), since you're splitting the coils, we will want to arrange it so that you have hum cancellation in the middle position of the 3-way.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 20, 2015 16:29:40 GMT -5
never thought to use grey! I labelled them up as green/ground as I assumed they would be soldered together, and forget the white! Following newey's diagram i have amended my circuit to what i think it should be.... not sure about how to make the centre cancelling, they are both the same brand of pickup (a neck and a bridge version, designed by SD), so I am assuming they are the correct way round as originally there was a 'coil tap' but I am not sure if that was split or parallel design (the original diagram is in the post above somewhere) what would I do to ensure they are hum-cancelling in the centre, when split?
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Post by newey on Oct 20, 2015 22:25:55 GMT -5
I'm looking and looking at your diagram, something was wrong but I couldn't figure out. Then it hit me- your diagram is 100% correct except that you have swapped around the SD wire colors. The N coil of SD pups are the black and white wires, the S coil is the green and red. So, you don't change where those wires end up, you need to swap which coils they are shown as attached to on the pickups.
Then, all will be well, I think- but let's still get another set of eyes on itbefore you wire it.
To get the other coil, wire it as I suggested a few posts back. I'd change it on the neck pup, just so you don't get confused by the phase switch.
Probably best to do a final diagram incorporating both changes.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 22, 2015 1:51:14 GMT -5
that is great, thankyou. I have corrected the diagram as you have said - just sloppyness on my part, but it is great to know which coil wire is which. the other correction i am not sure about - maybe it will be easier to see now the p/up wires are correct, please can you explain again for me
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Post by newey on Oct 22, 2015 5:13:39 GMT -5
As it is now, for both pickups, the N coil is permanently hard-wired, while the S coil is switched. With the switch one way, the red wired is attached to the output, so you get both coils in parallel. With the switch theother way, the S coil is grounded at both ends, shorting the coil, so all we hear is the N coil.
But we want to change it such that, for the neck pickup, the S coil is permanently wired and the N coil is the one that is switched between parallel and single coil. To do so, simply swap the positions of the black and red wires. Red is permanently wired to output, and black goes to the center lug on the switch.
This then gives one N and one S coil in the center position of the 3-way, making one (widely-spaced) HB.
But again, let's get a double check here, I'm pretty sure the diagram is good to go, but I'd like to get a second opinion, particularly as to the integration of the 2 switches on the bridge pickup.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 22, 2015 7:08:42 GMT -5
Ok I follow that now - so the coils are cancelling in the middle position when split. Ive drawn that up and attached it to check. The only bit I don't understand is that in your instructions the black wire out of the pickup is acting as the +ve and the green is attached to ground. In the original schecter diagram (also attached here) they have the green acting as +ve and the black is attached to the ground. Is there any difference in the results? obviously your white and red leads are functioning the same as theirs - please explain the difference if there is any - thanks as ever. schecter_TEMPEST_CUSTOM.pdf (550.91 KB)
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Post by JohnH on Oct 22, 2015 14:18:36 GMT -5
Just caught up with this thread, and I agree with newey, and I think your latest diagram does it. The Shecter diagram appears to cut both pickups to the same coil, so there is no hum cancelling when both are selected as singles. That is not a problem, but it is a missed opportunity.
Your design is of course unusual in that there is no normal series wiring of each humbucker - I assume that is all as intended, going for maximum twang with simplicity!
I would suggest one small further change:
The bridge pickup is getting the phase switch, and it is operating after the pickup, parallel/single switch and the tone pot, reversing the phase of the whole lot. That's OK, but it is unusual. But I have exactly that on my LP and it works. What you should do is, for that pickup only, don't connect the tone cap and switch 'ground' lug to the pot back, because when you change the phase switch, they all go to hot. Let the tone cap go directly to the switch lug without connecting to the pot back. Then run a separate non-signal ground wire to the pot back to shield it, from true ground (and also one to ground the strings at the bridge).
Also, on most PP pots, you don't need to solder to the actual pot case. There is a handy solder lug at the top of the switch which is much easier to solder to for case grounding.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 22, 2015 14:21:57 GMT -5
ok I tried out the last diagram for parallel/split and it worked ok, though as I suspected the green and black of the schecter were different to your SD colour scheme (your green is my black, so black and ground go together) With that in mind I wired it all up and you were right, there is little difference between parallel and split, a marginal increase in low mids. So I am scrapping the parallel-split scheme and replacing it with a series/split scheme. - 1 volume 2 tones
- Each coil tap is on its own p/p as before so I can tap them individually
- 1 volume with reverse phase for one pickup
- in split mode the two single coils should hum cancel
- in split mode the neck should be the coil nearest the fretboard (is this the North?)
- in split the bridge coil should be the coil nearest the bridge (S?), effectively giving the two outside coils like a tele
can you check this diagram for me - if the red/white to p/p is coil tap then I think it is nearly there
sorry to have wasted your time with the parallel idea - on my nighthawk there is a big difference, maybe this is due to the interaction of the middle p/u. Either way I have learnt loads, and the modular idea about the p/p switches has really demiystified them for me - so thanks
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 22, 2015 14:27:53 GMT -5
Thanks John H for this contribution - I have added it to version 3 diagram here Really this has reverted to quite a standard layout now perhaps - series/split, but I love the two tones/master volume idea, and the independence of the splits plus phase, gives a load of tonal varieties. The only thing is ....Im a bit confused as to whether or not my colours are right or wrong now, or would either work?
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Post by newey on Oct 22, 2015 22:27:47 GMT -5
I used SD colors because that was the diagram you used as a starting point. I don't know whether the Schecter pickup colors are the same or not. We have a thread in our reference section with color schemes for most common pickup brands, but I don't know if Schecter is in there or not.
But, let's talk about SD colors, to illustrate a point. Most SD diagrams will show the black wire as the N coil "hot" and the black as the N coil "ground", with the red as the S coil "hot" and green to ground. When the coils are wired in series (i.e., std. HB wiring), the white and red are joined together in what is called the "series junction" between the two coils.
But understand that we use the terms "hot" and "ground" as a convenient shorthand, just to distinguish one connection from another. Similarly, people use "+" and "-" to describe the connections, or sometimes "start" and "finish". But these terms are all technically inaccurate. "Positive", "Negative", "hot" and "ground" are all DC terms, and our pickup produce an alternating current, that is, an AC current. In AC, the "+" and "-" . . err, alternate rapidly. In your household current, they alternate 60 times per second; in your guitar pickup, the cycling depends upon your string vibrations- but either way, what is "hot" one millisecond is "not hot" the next.
Back to the SD pickups: With the coils in series, it matters not whether we wire the green to "ground" and the black to "hot", or whether the green goes to "hot" and the black to "ground", because those terms are misnomers, as discussed above. In an AC circuit, what is "hot" is only a momentary condition anyway. Your pickup will operate exactly the same wired in the one "direction" as in the other.
What you can't do, however, is wire one pickup one way and the other the opposite- do that, and the pickups will be out of phase with each other. But so long as you pick one way or the other and stick with it throughout the guitar, it won't matter.
Like most general statements, however, there are exceptions. With pickups, the exception is where the pickup has a cover that is "grounded" to the "not hot" wire, as on most Tele neck pickups. With those, it will still work regardless of which way round it is wired, but if the pickup cover connects to the hot, it will be noisier when you touch the cover. So, with those pickups, you do have to pay attention to which way it's wired.
Similarly, in household AC wiring, things like light bulbs will operate no matter which way they are wired (although modern building codes will dictate that they be wired with a third wire, as another "ground", and this then dictates that the other wires are wired accordingly) But in things that have motors, for example, one must mind the phasing- wire it backwards and the motor turns the opposite way, which may mean your Ninja blender's blades don't chop stuff very well . . .
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Oct 23, 2015 11:06:19 GMT -5
Thanks Newey that information really cleared up some misinformation I had going on. Basically, I understand I can use either of these two schematics as long as the grounds are consistent in the version being used. Please can you check the split p/p arrangement for accuracy, I have tried to implement what you suggested about the centre position hum cancelling regarding the red wire Thanks for all your help, you have really made the subject understandable and this guitar has become a very useful tool now with these modifications. +10
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Post by newey on Oct 24, 2015 21:59:32 GMT -5
Nope, sorry, now that you've decided to go with series/parallel (as stated on both diagrams), you wiring isn't correct for either diagram. On each pickup, one coil is connected to itself, shorting it out,and resulting in no sound from that coil.
Also, you show the "hot" line for the Bridge pickup going to both the phase switch and to the volume pot. It needs to go to the phase switch first, then out of the phase switch to the pot.
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Post by newey on Oct 24, 2015 22:08:21 GMT -5
Courtesy of our UnklMickey, here's how to wire a HB for series/parallel:
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Nov 15, 2015 5:04:14 GMT -5
Hi All sorry for the confusion - in all the different versions I had managed to label the diagram incorrectly; a couple of posts ago I'd decided to bin the parallel/split idea, and go with the more traditional series/split config, but forgotten to amend my labelling. Here is the correctly labelled split/series/phase scheme - I have tried to implement the phase switch before the bridge volume pot I have tried to implement all ideas, such as noise cancelling in centre and the 'floating cap' idea to take into account the phase reversal. please can you check the circuit for me. I think if it turns out to be too noisy I may amend it for series/parallel but I really like the single coil sound from this guitar so I dont want to lose it...maybe there is another solution
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Post by newey on Nov 16, 2015 0:00:23 GMT -5
I see several problems with your diagram. First, on the neck pickup,you show both the green and white wires connected together at the switch. That's both ends of one coil, you won't get any output from that coil.
I understand you are intending to wire the neck HB "inside out" so as to select the opposite coil for hum-cancelling, but you have not done this correctly. Using SD colors, the "series junction" between the two coils is the red and white wires wired normally;to wire it "inside out", the black and green become the series junction, w/ red to "hot" output, and white to ground.
The bridge HB is wired correctly up to the phase switch, but you then have two errors. The tone control is not wired correctly (wire it the same as the other one), and the phase switch output is connected to the ground at the rear of the 3-way switch via a green wire- that green wire shouldn't be there.
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Post by newey on Nov 16, 2015 0:04:27 GMT -5
Simply swap the green wire with the black coming out of the phase switch, and all will be well on the bridge side of things. The green wire connects to both the tone control and to the bridge side of the 3-way switch. The black wire from the phase switch is then grounded instead of the green one.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Nov 16, 2015 13:28:03 GMT -5
Thanks Newey for such detailed feedback. I have applied the changes you recommend and hopefully my interpretations are correct: - split coils - red (hot) white (ground) in bridge, to hum cancel in the centre positon
- Phase output - green is hot so goes to hot side of 3 way; black/ground ammended to suit
- bridge tone control - capacitor now grounded as per neck tone control (the previous version was a floating idea from JohnH; maybe I got it wrong but it was something to do with interaction with the phase reversal)
so in summary - 1 vol, 2 tones, split/series/phase with treble bleed and hum cancelling in centre
Hopefully this is good to go now
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Post by newey on Nov 16, 2015 22:18:51 GMT -5
OK, this looks good to go from my end. But let's get a second opinion before you dive in, I've been wrong before, with disturbing frequency.
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ubertech
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Post by ubertech on Nov 18, 2015 15:10:31 GMT -5
Hi All I tried it out with some sweet soldering and....nothing! I cross referenced with another couple of diagrams and there was an issue that I had earthed the south (?) (black) coil from the bridge before it went to the phase switch, so I separated out the black and bare wires, took the bare to ground and fed the phase switch with the black. I had also missed out an earth from the phase switch to the back of the volume pot - I've added it into the diagram below I also realised the two inside coils are shown on the diagram so on my built version I have swapped the hot and earth coils for each pickup to get the two outside coils - and that works really well. Here is correct built version for the inside coils version: can anyone tell me if this is oop or soop? it works in both split and series thanks UT
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Post by newey on Nov 18, 2015 21:59:16 GMT -5
Glad you got it working, uber.
Neither. This is POOP ("Parallel out of phase") as your neck and bridge pickups are connected only in parallel (via the 3-way switch). "SOOP", or "series out of phase" would only be possible if you had a means of connecting the two pickups in series.
It works in both positions of your series HB/split coil switch because the phase switch flips the phase of either the split bridge coil or of both bridge coils together; the phase switch "doesn't care" where you have the coil split switch set.
"OOP" simply refers to any out-of-phase configuration, whether in series or in parallel. "OOP" is fairly common terminology, but "SOOP" and "POOP" are our own terminology hereabouts, at least as far as I am aware. We also speak of "HOOP", or "Half out of phase" to refer to schemes where one coil (or one pickup) is partially bypassed by a cap.
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