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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2015 14:55:07 GMT -5
Hello, I just found this :  at our local Lidl (a german-austrian market chain) with many cheap but good quality foods/clothing/tools, etc.. Well this thing is tough! I filled a 8mm dia hole, then tapped it and screwed a wood screw, 5mm ext dia, 3.9mm inner thread. By screwing the screw wood by hand, I could not remove it using all my strength, pulling with a pliers. Here are some shots :     Screwing unscrewing feels more like rosewood than beech. And feels stronger, harder yet more flexible than epoxy. What's the deal with this stuff? Do you guys have it in the USA? And if not, maybe cause it is alergic, or hazardous ? |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 12, 2015 1:27:12 GMT -5
I've never heard of the stuff. So, I looked it up...
I don't know what it's going to do on your guitar neck, but it's the same stuff used as an adhesive in knee and hip replacements. Might be interesting to see what happens, as I wouldn't have the slightest guess on how it's going to perform.
The health risks appear relatively low with eye and nasal irritation listed as the primary complaint.
Either way, keep us posted.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2015 3:11:22 GMT -5
Hi Cyn1, I did the test outdoors, and after I drilled and tapped into it, I got some itchy fingers. It smells like fruit tho, better than epoxy  I cannot use it right now on any guitar. I gotta start some new project with some new guitar and apply this somehow. I got it real cheap : 3 EUR, but I see in Germany the same costs about over 10 EUR for 30g, and about 30 EUR for 100g, more expensive than Epoxy. |
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 12, 2015 19:36:57 GMT -5
What might be interesting to try with this stuff is using it to secure threaded inserts into a neck. If they use it in knee and hip replacement surgery, where the bond needs to hold for 20 years, it should take the minimal stresses of holding a guitar neck in place...
I've never seen much point in using a filler to substitute wood, as it lacks the fibers for the screw to bite into. But having seen people split wood by drilling the wrong size hole for an insert, using a bonding agent to hold it would eliminate that issue. Using a template would ensure that all four holes lines up perfectly to the body holes.
And yeah, like you need a new source of six string misery in your life. This Ibanez has been a trial...
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 1:13:03 GMT -5
'Morning Cyn1,
Good idea about the inserts. Could we also secure those with epoxy? Just thinking of the alternatives. About 6-string misery, I am selling daughter's guitar to make some space, and most probably it will be a 7-string franken-jem.
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 13, 2015 12:47:12 GMT -5
Good idea about the inserts. Could we also secure those with epoxy? You could use epoxy. I've never done it, but it's used on boats to perform multiple repairs, and those things are exposed to a lot of stresses a guitar never sees. Stick with a high viscosity marine grade epoxy if you do. Keep in mind, that stuff is going to be exponentially more expensive that the methyl methacrylate you have now. The thing about the methyl methacrylate that hit me was that this stuff is used in surgical procedures to bond an organic substrate to metal in a pretty non-hospitable place...ergo inside a living human body...and it has a design life of 20 years in that application. My guess is that it'll bond the organic wood fibers to the metal inset better than epoxy, but again, that's just unresearched speculation... The proof is in the testing. One advantage of this method, if it works, is that you're not just limited to standard diameters and thread pitch found in "out of the bin" threaded inserts. With this stuff, you could take thick wall ss metal tubing and drill and tap custom inserts for a finer machine thread at whatever diameter you wanted... Think about it...four 5mm fine pitch screws in that 7 string...the neck would be afraid to try and move. I checked, and Pattex isn't sold in the US...Costa Rica being the closest distributor listed on their site.. I'll have to look around to see if there's an equivalent made or sold over here, as I'd like to give this a try. God know, I've got enough projects laying around here...and I think I have a candidate in waiting... And as far as another 7 string...man, I really think you need to step up your game to an 8 stringer... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 2:58:30 GMT -5
Hi Cyn1, I think permatex makes MMA adhesives. As far as 8 strings, this is a fine idea! Think about it...four 5mm fine pitch screws in that 7 string...the neck would be afraid to try and move. Fine idea Cyn, + I recall a possible problem with the inserts solution was not adequate offset till the edge of the neck. IIRC it should be 1.5 times the radius, or smth like that, maybe you or SG remember better. Could this issue be addressed with the MMA method? I think maybe. |
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Post by newey on Dec 14, 2015 6:40:05 GMT -5
MMA is chemically very similar to the cyanoacrylate glues(there are a number of formulations)commonly sold as Crazy Glue™, Super Glue™, etc. Pretty much anything that you can do with one you can do with the other. However, many formulations for medical use include a substrate of some sort to make a sort of grout. One thing that ordinary cyanoacrylates are not good for is filling holes in a porous surface, and MMA is no exception. So, my question for this stuff would be whether it is pure MMA or has some sort of substrate additive. This will dictate what things it can be best used for.
When there is a need for an adhesive that will fill holes in a porous surface, epoxies generally work better. Forget gluing knees; that stuff is used (together with rivets) to attach aircraft wings.
I know a little about MMA from litigating failed knee replacement cases 30 years ago. Nowadays, knee replacements aren't ordinarily cemented into place, they're press-fitted into the bone. However, if someone needs a revision surgery, usually the second time it's glued with MMA because too much bone has to be removed when revising the first joint replacement such that a good solid press-fit can't be achieved.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 8:38:50 GMT -5
Hi Newey ne thing that ordinary cyanoacrylates are not good for is filling holes in a porous surface, and MMA is no exception. So, my question for this stuff would be whether it is pure MMA or has some sort of substrate additive. This will dictate what things it can be best used for. Well, similar chemical technology or even relative formulas maybe, but those two guys : - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_methacrylate- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylateseem pretty different to me, wiki says that there are *some* super glues containing 9% MMA, but common super glues are 100% ethyl cyanoacrylate. About this pattex one, here docs-europe.electrocomponents.com/webdocs/0fd7/0900766b80fd7fb0.pdfit says : And it definitely is advertised for filling holes. (its on the first img I posted bottom left icon) When there is a need for an adhesive that will fill holes in a porous surface, epoxies generally work better. Forget gluing knees; that stuff is used (together with rivets) to attach aircraft wings. be removed when revising the first joint replacement such that a good solid press-fit can't be achieved. Don't know, I tried with the hardest epoxy I found (advertised as having steel components, and aimed primarily for cold weld), and this thing although hard, will still be scratchable, I literally could not scratch MMA. I will repeat the same test with this epoxy ASAP. Currently it is still curing. Also epoxy smells bad (although less dangerous than MMA), while MMA smells good and has a very nice mat feel and very woody, feels like the hardest smoothest hardwood. Epoxy feels rough more like very hard plastic (which is what both of them are). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 10:08:15 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 15:23:33 GMT -5
Did a test with permatex cold weld epoxy (designed for metal bonding), and it performed far inferior to the mma. It is brittle, chips easily, does not take side impact, threads loosen easily, no elasticity. I will try with the best epoxy for wood with gap filling capabilities from Pattex, just to have a fair comparison. Till then, Stabilit Express is much better than epoxy with in turn is much better than CyA w/ accelerator. Extreme hardness with elasticity is what makes it ideal for wood. For some reason they sell this only in Germany. Cannot find it in the Greek or any other catalogue. This Lidl market sometimes just imports some goodies directly.
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Post by cynical1 on Dec 15, 2015 1:22:08 GMT -5
I've never seen anything hold a wood screw better than wood. A metal insert with a fine thread machine screw holds better, but standard inserts are hard to find in fine thread once you start going up in size.
I just like the idea of making my own inserts and bonding them in. I don't know if it'll work, but I've got a guitar project with a similar neck pocket to the Ibanez Greek has. I'm more curious than confident, but I think it deserves a little experimentation.
I've done a little reading on Methyl Methacrylate, and find it has a myriad of uses from flooring, bonding, and high traffic concrete floor repair. It all comes down to the resin mix of the Methyl Methacrylate. I need to read a bit more on this, but I think this stuff might work as a bonding agent for an insert.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 4:06:35 GMT -5
Here is the Permatex cold weld epoxy after drilling/screwing :  Not much of a contest here. Will look more into epoxy, just to be on the fair side. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2015 15:40:06 GMT -5
Did some more tests with common clear epoxy, and the steel re-inforcedepoxy and mma. As it hardens and cures the slow curing steel epoxy starts to perform on par with mma. Common epoxy 2-part glue collapsed easily.
*But*, I think *brittle* (not flexible) is what we need here. Why? Although from an engineering POV flexible material should be better to absorb shocks etc... maybe brittle material is better for sustain. Maybe MMA dumpens sound. This is just a theory. So one should try all solutions and see what is best for which purpose.
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