How to Wire with 6-way Switch and Two Push-Pull Pots (H-H)?

[jjw1610]

Hi everybody!

I'm brand new to these forums and to guitar wiring in general, but I have a pretty interesting proposal that I could find anything on here about.

Here is what I am trying to achieve:

Switch:
Pos 1: Neck Humbucker
Pos 2: Neck + Bridge Humbucker
Pos 3: Bridge Humbucker
Pos 4: Neck Single Coil (Inside)
Pos 5: Neck Single Coil + Bridge Single Coil (Both Inside)
Pos 6: Bridge Single Coil (Inside)

Push-Pull Pot 1:
Down: Series (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Series for 1 + 3)
Up: Parallel (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Parallel for 1 + 3)

Push-Pull Pot 2:
Down: Inside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)
Up: Outside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)

How would I go about wiring this? I really am clueless on how to do this, but I am familiar with wiring diagrams and guitar soldering. Does anybody know how I would attack this?

Link for switch I'm using: www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Components_and_Parts/Switches/Free-Way_Pickup_Switch.html
www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Components_and_Parts/Switches/Free-Way_Ultra_Switch.html

[sumgai]

jj,

Welcome to The NutzHouse!

Sadly, you can't have a series/parallel option with this model of the Freeway switch. For that, you'll need to lay out about 14 more clams in order snatch up the Ultra version of this doohickey, also from StewMac.  The problem lies in the fact that both pickups are always grounded, a necessity in order for this particular switch to work as advertised.

Worthy of note, this model (the non-Ultra that you linked to) has one side always working, whereas the other side is switched "on" and "off" via the movement from side to side.  Page 2 of the Wiring and Schematics (pdf) from stew-mac's site shows this clearly, and working one's way through the remaining diagrams proves it out - Side A is always engaged, Side B is optionally engaged or not.  Such is not the case with the Ultra, wherein everything is isolated and independent.

With either switch, this one or the Ultra, we can give you an inner/outer coil selection with one of your p/p pots, so no troubles on that account.

Let us know which way you want to go, and one of us will post a diagram as needed.

HTH

sumgai

[jjw1610]

Thank you for the amazing, well throught-out response! It is refreshing to see that other people here share my zeal for pickup options that some may consider trivial. I will definitely pull the trigger and order the Ultra switch, which will allow me the get the effects that I desire. Thank you again for being so eager to help me! I think I will have a great time as a member of this forum!

[sumgai]

jj,

Eager? That's debatable....

Well thought out? Well, it goes like this: All we really do here is apply simple logic.  If a case is clearly stated, as your was, then it's a matter of "follow the yellow brick road", and not much else.  Since switching is really nothing more than "on" or "off", then we need only see that we're making contact when desired, and not making it when undesired.  Simple, yes?

In the case of the Ultra switch, there is no detailed schematic of the switch itself, as there is for the "regular" unit.  That said, the wiring diagrams show several cases of series and parallel connections, so I'm confident that we can make it work for you, in your desired scenario.  It might take a day or two to be sure that it's correct (many eyes in review make for fewer mistakes when actually building it), but fear not, we'll get 'er done!

HTH

sumgai

[gumbo]

Ah HA!

..but YES...there IS a detailed schematic of the Ultra version HERE...


www.freewayswitch.com/download-pdfs/free-way-3x3-05-diagrams.html

..on PAGE ONE of this PDF...

g-f-b

[newey]

jj-

Switch:
Pos 1: Neck Humbucker
Pos 2: Neck + Bridge Humbucker
Pos 3: Bridge Humbucker
Pos 4: Neck Single Coil (Inside)
Pos 5: Neck Single Coil + Bridge Single Coil (Both Inside)
Pos 6: Bridge Single Coil (Inside)

I think this much is doable with the Freeway Ultra.

Push-Pull Pot 2:
Down: Inside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)
Up: Outside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)

And, while I haven't yet put pen to paper, I think this is probably OK as well.

However, I think this part:

Push-Pull Pot 1:
Down: Series (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Series for 1 + 3)
Up: Parallel (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Parallel for 1 + 3)

is not possible with a P/P pot. Again, just thinking out loud here, and maybe someone has a bright idea I haven't got. But it seems to me you're wanting too much from the 2 poles of a P/P here. A P/P pot has 2 poles, it is a DPDT switch. It can switch two things at once. But to put two pickups into series vs. parallel will require both poles of the P/P- which means you don't have any poles left over to switch your humbuckers from local series to local parallel at the same time.

Now, if your Freeway Ultra had more poles, we could have the P/P selecting different "modes" on the Freeway, and (perhaps) we could find a work-around wiring that way. But your Freeway Ultra only has 2 poles- it is a DP6T switch. You'll be using both of the Freeway's poles to get the wiring you want for the 6 positions. So, no extra poles to work with there, either.

So, I'm hoping someone will jump in to show me the error of my thinking here, but I'm not seeing how that 2nd P/P can do what you want it to do.

[sumgai]

SPLASH!  (Consider me jumped in!)

I see that the original post has been edited to include new parameters, i.e. the local s/p for positions 1 and 3.  For the reasons posted by newey, we're gonna need about a pound of Unobtanium to complete that mission.

The best way to get local s/p switching would be to outfit the humbuckers with triple-shot pickup rings. Of course this substantially raises the number of possible pickup combinations, but what the hey, if we're gonna shoot for the moon, might as well use a more powerful rocket, right?

To give global series as well as parallel with one DPDT switch might get hairy, I'll have to cogitate a bit more here. (Perhaps a serious scan of Unklmickey's modules is in order......)

And a hat-tip to g-f-b (gum for brains) for that link to the Ultra schematic.  Whoda thunk it?

HTH

sumgai

[jjw1610]

Jun 26, 2016 21:40:32 GMT -5 newey said:

 Again, just thinking out loud here, and maybe someone has a bright idea I haven't got. But it seems to me you're wanting too much from the 2 poles of a P/P here. A P/P pot has 2 poles, it is a DPDT switch. It can switch two things at once. But to put two pickups into series vs. parallel will require both poles of the P/P- which means you don't have any poles left over to switch your humbuckers from local series to local parallel at the same time.

Now, if your Freeway Ultra had more poles, we could have the P/P selecting different "modes" on the Freeway, and (perhaps) we could find a work-around wiring that way. But your Freeway Ultra only has 2 poles- it is a DP6T switch. You'll be using both of the Freeway's poles to get the wiring you want for the 6 positions. So, no extra poles to work with there, either.

So, I'm hoping someone will jump in to show me the error of my thinking here, but I'm not seeing how that 2nd P/P can do what you want it to do.

Thank you for taking a closer look at the exact parameters of my ideas. I apologize for amending the original setup, but I just wanted to see how many options I could possibly get with my limited components . The local series/parallel is not at all vitally important to me, so I shall adjust my specifications such that I no longer request this. Hopefully this should make my request much more feasible. Thank you all for helping me work out this wiring dilemma, I sincerely appreciate how much effort you guys are putting into helping me with this project!

[sumgai]

jj,

As to effort already expended, you're welcome. As to amount of effort yet to be expended, well, let's just say that there will come a day of reckoning.

So long as you're not in a great hurry (there have been members who've requested help "for tonight's gig"), we can do this.  A day or two between postings is common for each of us, and when lumped together, we can often cut that time way down.

As to editing and re-editing, that's all to the good, no problems there.  We thrive on challenges, and mid-stream course corrections are common, trust me.  But at the end of the day, the best builds took time to design, time for peer reviews of those designs, time to implement, and time to test in the real world.  And all too often, time to troubleshoot afterwards.  But that's what this is all about, getting the job done.

To that end, "dropping back" is a good idea only in that it's always a good idea to start simple, make sure it works, then start modding your mods - adding something else that expands your tonal palette.   In this, I mean to say that you probably should make sure the Freeway switch works as desired, then add the other functionality, bit by bit, until you've got the whole thing working.  After all of that, you might consider putting in those triple-shot rings, many players like them. At this point, installing them would be a walk in the park, compared to what you've already done.

The inner coils versus outer coils is a piece of cake with one of your p/p pots.  The global series/parallel idea will be a bit harder, but with the Freeway Ultra, it should be doable, we'll see.  Now that I have an actual schematic, let me ponder that a bit longer.  If you have yet to order parts, please hold on for a bit.  And who knows, perhaps other members here will come up with something before I can chime back in..... (hint, you guys, hint!)

Stay tuned.....

sumgai

[gumbo]

" Now that I have an actual schematic, let me ponder that a bit longer. "


You gotta give sumgai a bit of slack now and then, 'coz, remember he IS getting older...

[sumgai]

^^^^^^ but that doesn't mean that I have grow up!

Edited to add:

jj, I'm sorry, but the wife put the arm on my time, and I haven't been able to sit down with this and think it through.  But the worse part is, we're leaving for Oregon in about 2 hours, and have yet to pack the RV and shove off.  Figure it'll be about a week before we return.  If no one else has contributed a solution by then, I'll chip in again.... I've downloaded the Ultra's schematic to my machine, so I can work offline.

Apologies.

sumgai

p.s. For those keeping score at home, yes I will be passing through the Portland area, and we all know who lives near to that city, don't we?

p.p.s. Sadly, Teleblooz also lives down thataway, but he hasn't checked into The NutzHouse for about a year.  It'd be cool to have those two get together, as they're fairly close in musical tastes.  Maybe someday.....

[jjw1610]

Don't worry sumgai, I am in no rush at all so take all the time that you need. The amount that you have helped me already is immeasurable, and I know I can't rush greatness . Thank you for being so attentive to this thread and 'resurrecting' it after nobody replies after a few days. I hope you enjoy your trip to Oregon, feel no obligation or pressure to get any work done. Enjoy your vacation and relax!

[newey]

OK, so we're clear, the current agenda is:

Here is what I am trying to achieve:

Switch:
Pos 1: Neck Humbucker
Pos 2: Neck + Bridge Humbucker
Pos 3: Bridge Humbucker
Pos 4: Neck Single Coil (Inside)
Pos 5: Neck Single Coil + Bridge Single Coil (Both Inside)
Pos 6: Bridge Single Coil (Inside)

Push-Pull Pot 1:
Down: Series (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Series for 1 + 3)
Up: Parallel (For Pos 2 + 5)(Local Parallel for 1 + 3)

Push-Pull Pot 2:
Down: Inside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)
Up: Outside Coil (For Pos 4 + 5 + 6)

I think this is doable with the specified components.

[jjw1610]

Yes this is exactly what I'm looking to do!

[newey]

OK, consider this a first attempt, at least until someone else signs off on it. I think it's OK, but I won't swear to it, and this switch is a new beast for me.



After I drew this, I noted that we did not discuss hum-cancellation. You requested both inner coils/both outer coils for position 5. Neither pair will be hum-cancelling as shown. However, if hum-cancelling is important to you, this could be achieved by "re-stacking" one of the HBS, and then physically rotating that pickup 180 degrees. If you want to do that, just ask and we'll walk you through the necessary changes.

[jjw1610]

Thanks for the diagram ! As for the hum-cancelling, it isn't vitally important to me, but I would rather have it than not. Please tell me more about this re-stacking and flipping please!

[newey]

To get hum-cancellation requires combining one North coil with a South coil. Now, pickups vary, and it is possible that you have a set in which both inner coils are already one North and one South. This is usually one screw coil with one slug coil, if your humbuckers show the coils. If so, you're already good to go. And, if both inner coils hum-cancel, then so will both outer ones.

But, if both inner coils are screw coils or both slug coils, then restacking and rotation will be needed to achieve hum-cancellation. So, before we diverge off here, what pickups will you be using, and how are their coils oriented?

If they are from different sources, then all bets are off, and some testing (easy to do) will likely be necessary.

Note that my diagram uses Seymour Duncan colors for the wires (with gray instead of white for visibility). You may need to adjust the diagram to reflect the correct wire colors.

[jjw1610]

I will be using Seymour Duncan JB and Jazz models for my pickups, so it will be the classic slug and screw setup. But because of my fickle and indecisive personality, I must ask: how loud would the humming be if I left the coils as is? I really don't wanna compromise the symmetry of how the pickups look when they're set up normally. If the humming isn't bad enough to where is would affect the tone, then I'll probably just go with non hum cancelling. Thanks for all of your help!

[newey]

You can always change it later if the noise level is too high for your tastes. With both pickups being Seymour Duncan, the black/white coil is the Slug coil and is North, the green/red coil is the screw coil and is South. As shown on the diagram, you will have both screw coils with the switch in one direction, and both slug coils in the other, so no hum-cancellation.

With the neck and/or bridge alone as a single-coil (i.e., positions 4 and 6), the noise level should be about the same as a Strat with just the neck pickup or the bridge pickup alone. In position 5, where both HBs are split to single coils, the noise level will be higher. Whether it is too high for the setting to be useful is for you to decide. Bear in mind that it wasn't until the 1970s that Fender began using RWRP middle pickups on Strats, so that the N+M and M+B settings would be hum-cancelling. Prior to that, folks filed notches in their switches to make positions 2 and 4, and didn't seem to mind that they weren't hum-cancelling.

If you do decide to make the change, since the bridge pickup is permanently wired to ground, I'll use that as an example, although you could wire either pickup "inside out" (also known as restacking the HB). But assuming it's the bridge, you would wire the green and black wires to the coil split switch instead of the red and white. The red wire than goes to the "hot" output, and the white wire goes to ground. This then gives you one slug coil and one screw coil at position 5 when the two HBs are combined in single-coil mode, and will be hum-cancelling in both positions of the coil-cut switch. Then, to get both inner coils or both outer, one HB gets rotated 180 degrees (make sure you leave enough wire on the leads to do so); this then makes one slug coil an inner coil and the other inner coil is a screw coil.

[ktulu]

Why can't I see the diagram?

[sumgai]

ktulu,

Hi, and welcome to The NutzHouse!

Nov 21, 2017 8:10:14 GMT -5 ktulu said:

Why can't I see the diagram?

Because Photobucket went gunnysack in the head, that's why.  After more than a decade of free image hosting (albeit supported by advertising), they threw a major-scale monkey wrench into the works, and screwed nearly everybody on the planet. No more freebies, period.

That said, my own avatar (which comes from Pb) is still being shown, and other members here have postings that are still getting displayed.  But as you note, certainly not enough "stuff" is making it to the screen. Can't explain why the dichotomy, but there it is.

Chalk it up to Photobucket contracting an industrial-sized cased of asshat-edness, pure and simple.

newey made the posting in question, perhaps he still has a copy of the image on his own home computer......

sumgai

[ktulu]

Thanks, man.
Better wait for him to pop up here, or would it be best to quote him, then he'll see the message?

[sumgai]

ktulu,

newey and I are co-Admins here, so don't worry, he'll be popping in soon enough.  And for the record, quoting someone doesn't alert them that they're being paged. 

Be patient, grasshopper.

sumgai

[newey]

newey made the posting in question, perhaps he still has a copy of the image on his own home computer......

It was just last year, so I should be able to resurrect it. Unfortunately, there are at least three machines where it might reside, and it's not on the home front where I am at the moment. Good possibility it may be on the laptop, which I can't get to until tomorrow.

[Yogi B]

newey
Do you need to find the original local copy? Couldn't you just download it from your own Photobucket account?

---

However it is (currently) still possible for anyone to persuade Photobucket to relinquish it's grip on at least images that are contained within public albums -- for example, I believe this is the image in question:

Js Freeway Ultra diagram.png (200.55 KB)

---

(This reminds me, now that I've found a way to embed attached images that gives the best results for both logged in users and guests (without using a third party host) -- I have no excuse to update my own images. Plus maybe writing a short guide on the method I've come up with, that is if anyone wants one. On that note I would add such a thing to the Image Posting thread, but it's locked. Then again it'd probably be better to start a new thread anyway.)

[reTrEaD]

Nov 22, 2017 10:08:09 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Then again it'd probably be better to start a new thread anyway.)

A new thread is definitely needed. The changes in Photofuggit have made the current thread a tutorial on what not to do.

Perhaps you could PM Sumgai, Newey and open a dialogue on how to proceed. At some point the current thread needs to be edited with a disclaimer, link to the new thread and unpinned.

[sumgai]

Yogi and reTrEaD,

You guys are correct, as usual - I need to delete all of the follow-on postings from that thread, leaving only the first one with a disclaimer as to why it's no longer an option for us.  (Sorry to have to say, over the years, many posts have referred to the thread in question for clarification.  If I just remove the whole thing, those links will be broken.  Better to make a user take two steps instead of one, rather than have viewers scratch their heads in puzzlement.)

Yogi, if you'll kindly start a new thread with your instructions on resuscitating 'lost' images, I'll link to it in the soon-to-be-trimmed thread. Thanks much.

sumgai

[col]

Jul 9, 2016 9:29:48 GMT -5 newey said:

OK, consider this a first attempt, at least until someone else signs off on it. I think it's OK, but I won't swear to it, and this switch is a new beast for me.



After I drew this, I noted that we did not discuss hum-cancellation. You requested both inner coils/both outer coils for position 5. Neither pair will be hum-cancelling as shown. However, if hum-cancelling is important to you, this could be achieved by "re-stacking" one of the HBS, and then physically rotating that pickup 180 degrees. If you want to do that, just ask and we'll walk you through the necessary changes.

[col]

Oh. I see that the image has already been retrieved.

It seems, actually, that there is a temporary fix (I don't understand how this works) for retrieving some photobucket images. I recommend that the team here do this with as many important images as possible, save them, upload them to a reliable location, and then permanently edit the URLs in the affected posts.

The method for temporarily reinstating the images is to simply temporarily append the original image URL or quote (and append) the original in a new post with '~original'. Thusly:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj59/newey_album/Js%20Freeway%20Ultra%20diagram.png~original

Again, I have no idea why this works. I just understand that it is more likely to work with more recently uploaded images, and is unlikely to remain a permanent viable method for the retrieval of images.

[ktulu]

Ok, think I'm gonna need a clearer image, as I'm an amateur here... And I only work on schematics.
I have no idea what I'm doing, but thank god I know how to solder.
And I'm a guitar player, lol.
Sadly, I can't know for sure which pickup is which, or which pot is which for that matter.

And another thing:
I'm guessing one pot is volume, the other is tone?
How about 2 volumes and 2 tones?

Thanks a million!