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Post by simes on Dec 16, 2005 12:02:31 GMT -5
Hello.
I’m looking at HH-configuration wiring options for a guitar I intend to build. Bear in mind that I don’t have a two humbucker guitar at hand (or at least, not one whose owner would be willing to let me experiment on it). Consider too that I have never played a PRS: I can’t afford one, nor do I have the chance to try one out, since they are not a common fixture in guitar shops in the part of the world where I live.
OK. Basically what I want to do is get a few more options beyond the stock three plus each HB in parallel with itself. I have been thinking about a Jimmy Page type set-up, with s/p switches for each HB (I don’t like coil splits) a phase switch for the neck HB and another switch for putting both pickups in series with each other. The other option would be a PRS-type thing, combining the inner or outer coils of the HB’s in parallel or in series. I know these positions are touted as being “pseudo-strattish”, but I’ve never had the opportunity of checking this out.
QUESTION #1: Just how F-ish do these combinations sound? Of the F-sounds, the ones I really like are the neck x middle of the “S” and the middle position of the “T”.
Now, presumably when you combine individual coils from two different pickups, you combine a north coil with a south coil in order to keep the combination hum-cancelling. Depending on which way round you put the pickups in the guitar, this would presumably affect the sound of the combinations. For example, if you put both north coils facing the neck and both south coils facing the bridge, the combinations are going to sound different than if you put the two south coils facing each other and the north coils facing the bridge and neck. Or not? Or neither one nor the other but quite the opposite?
QUESTION #2: Has anyone tried these different positions, or even just mused upon the matter, or am I obsessing about inconsequential minutiae which barely affect the sound?
An entirely different question would be how to combine all these sounds on one guitar, or which ones to discard, but I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it.
Thanks,
Simes
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Post by UnklMickey on Dec 16, 2005 14:33:52 GMT -5
there are too many things that go into making a strat sound like a strat and making a tele sound like a tele, to go into a detailed analysis of how close that 2HB build of yours will sound like either. a HB pickup at the neck alone won't sound that much different with both coils on when you turn it around. nor will the bridge alone. but when you use them together, thats when things get more interesting. i would expect the 2HB combo to sound somewhat different, similar to putting the bridge HB out-of-phase with the neck. "Just how F-ish do these combinations sound?" running a HB in SC mode won't sound exactly like a strat SC or a tele SC. but it will sound more like either of those than a HB. when you orient the pups, it would probably make sense to have the coils you want to pair-up, being on the inside and on the outside. this will give you more variation on the sounds of the two SC combination. Or neither one nor the other but quite the opposite?whether in or out of context, that was a confusing question, but hey, this is a confusing complicated topic. so, it fits. the other way, of keeping the spacing between the two combos the same, but having one combo closer to the bridge and the other farther away would be less interesting IMHO. one of the major factors in the strat's signature sound is the spacing between adjacent pickups. i would think, to emulate this in your build, you would want the inner pair to have this spacing. the outer pair will naturally be wider, but not so much, as to be distinctly tele. just different from the inner pair. the wide spacing in the tele, and the way the tele bridge pup is mounted, and the design of the tele neck pup, contribute to it's unique sound. so expect your outer pair to sound quite different from the tele "both" combo. but perhaps having enough similarity to satisfy you. "Has anyone tried these different positions, or even just mused upon the matter, or am I obsessing about inconsequential minutiae which barely affect the sound?"only speculation on my part here. if you're lucky, someone else will weigh in with some real world results on this. minutia? i don't think so. many of the possibilities for the 2 HB combinations will have markedly different sounds. if you consider the possibilities for hum canceling combinations, you would have - HB at bridge
- HB at "middle"
- HB both
- SC strat spaced pair
- SC wider spaced pair
we haven't discussed the difference between having each of those combos in parallel vs series and we haven't even considered using 2 north coils together out-of-phase. (this is still hum-canceling) i would defer to JohnH on the way those combos sound in series vs parallel. i think he has a 2 HB guitar with rotary switches to accomplish many of the combos you would be interested in. i don't know if it has the strat spacing, between the inner coils of the 2 HBs though. unk
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Post by JohnH on Dec 16, 2005 15:14:05 GMT -5
Hi Simes. I see you are someone with a similarly twisted brain! I have indeed mused at length on these coil issues. This started with my old Shergold guitar, which is HH and each pup can be series, single or out of phase with itself. I added switching to give parallel on each pup, and out of phase between pups. My best basic design for putting all this into a new-build, is here, which Unkl brought again to the surface recently: guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1134165518&page=2That design I am pretty certain is oK, but has not quite been built yet. Based on the Shergold, I'd put pup options in order of brightness as follows: series humbucker parralel humbucker single coil series out of phase The nearest to a Strat sound is the single coil cut. I find it edgier than the parraleled Hb. It is a good sound, but not a real Sc sound however. You are right to want to look for combos between pups either in phase, with a north and a south coil, or out of phase with two coils the same, to hum cancell. Theres an unexpected hum cancelling effect with one pup series out of phase with itself, in parallel with a single coil on the other pup. The result is a bright like a single coil, but hum cancelling combo, great for high gain distortion. That design above is configured so that in the 3 out of 5 non-humcancelling combos the neck pup always produces + hum and the bridge always - hum. so in combos, you get full hum cancelling in as many options as possible. Picking two north coils gives you out of phase hum cancelling. Which coils to combine has two effects on the sound. The position on the guitar makes a slight difference, more so at the bridge than the neck . Another effect is if you have different pole types on your pickup, eg if one is covered and the other not, or is one is adjusted higher. These are subtle effects, and need experimenting to chose the best. You could take a look at my site, which has pages on this stuff, plus details of the Shergold. au.geocities.com/guitarcircuitsI havn't updated that site for a while, but the basic info is still OK. I hope it helps. John
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Post by UnklMickey on Dec 16, 2005 15:36:27 GMT -5
...The nearest to a Strat sound is the single coil cut. I find it edgier than the parraleled Hb. It is a good sound, but not a real Sc sound however.... your pups on the "Masq" are spaced far apart, as is the norm for a 2 HB configuration. when the outer coils are in parallel, does it sound more like a tele than a strat, or is the sound so different that it is just "vaguely fenderish". unk
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Post by JohnH on Dec 16, 2005 15:54:24 GMT -5
Its too hard to compare - not having a tele at hand. If you go here, you can listen to clips: www.shergold.co.uk/soundcheck.htmlThe dominant factor with the Shergold sound is the very clean, not very high output pups
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Post by UnklMickey on Dec 16, 2005 16:20:58 GMT -5
i listened to those clips. i'm using a laptop, so the speakers leave a lot to be desired.
i would describe those SC singles and combo as being somewhere between tele-ish and vaguely fenderish.
the HBs don't sound at all like PAFs though. not nearly as "round".
i'm sure Simes will get much more from listening to your clips, than from reading my writing about them. so i'll get out of the way.
good luck!
unk
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Post by simes on Dec 16, 2005 16:53:02 GMT -5
Hello John, hello Unkl.
Many thanks for your swift and involved response.
Just a few comments before I retire to my basket (it's late at night where I live).
I've already got an HB wired for s/p switching with itself in a Strat (Unkl actually solved certain wiring doubts for me on that, my first serious mod). I'm very content with the parallel sound, since I've never been a big fan of the excessively stratty bridge SC sound (being something of an Ed King fan - strat yes, but cut back on that thin brightness). I wouldn't want to go into coil splits, which I've tried before and don't like, or an HB out of phase with itself. Apart from having more versions of one pickup than I need, the switching would get in the way of remembering which part of the guitar to press against the other and which part to blow down.
I like the 3 standard HB sounds. I think the two "HB in parallel with itself" sounds are most acceptable. I like being able to sharpen up the standard HH middle position by switching the neck HB into parallel with itself.
What I also like is being able to set the amp to just a slight overdrive when in pseudo-SC mode, then crunch it up a bit by putting the HB's back in series.
The sounds I miss from the strat are the quack of the bridge-middle (not neck-middle as I mistakenly wrote before) and the open bridge-neck sound (via a "neck on" switch). The former is something I think you can't truly do without an actual strat, and the latter isn't really a tele, but it works for me.
I see the sense in using the inner coils of the HB's (north coils presumably facing in the same direction) to imitate to some extent the spacing of strat pups to get "the quack", and the outer coils to get my imitation tele thing.
I'm not especially concerned about the out of phase options or the pups in series with each other. I think 10 useful combinations on a guitar is about the maximum I could handle, not only because more sounds will start to sound the same (if you see what I mean), but because the switching would just be too daunting. Maybe the series out of phase options would be good.
In the car on my way home from work today (bear in mind I was negotiating some challenging roads, and therefore couldn't afford to drift away completely) I was thinking how nice it would be to have a dual mode 5-position switch that would do:
A - "clean" 1. neck HB in parallel with itself 2. outer coils in series out of phase 3. outer coils in parallel 4. inner coils in parallel 5. bridge HB in parallel with itself
B. - "crunch" 1. neck HB in series with itself 2. both in series with themselves and series with each other and out of phase 3. both in series with themselves and parallel with each other 4. both in parallel with each other, neck HB in parallel with itself, bridge HB in series with itself 5. bridge HB in series with itself
Now that would be a nice wiring challenge, and a nice guitar too.
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