vinyl spray paint - Cyn content

[Deleted]

Hello,

I'd like to change the color of my strat : sunburst -> white. My tech wants 300 EUR for that. No way. So I thought of this :



whatcha think?

[Deleted]

ok man, that was a bad idea, if you are silent because of this I gotta tell you I have forgotten it already. If you see those boards drop a line. Hope you are OK.

[sumgai]

I'll ring him up, see what's happening.....

...............

Half an hour later.....

c1 is alive and almost coherent (!), I think we can expect to hear from him pretty shortly.

[Deleted]

YES!

[cynical1]

I'm here. The wife has been sick, I've been sick, we've been snowed in, iced in...lost power and Internet for a bit...but hey, sumgai sent the St. Bernard and here I am.

First off, a very good looking finish can be achieved with rattle cans. My personal preference is lacquer in the can. Acrylic, enamels or any other combination of whatever some marketing genius devises to convince you the contents of the can will withstand a thermonuclear exchange may not give you the results you want.

Why? Because for all the voodoo out there on finishes, lacquer still does exactly what it's been doing for decades. I've used a lot of different finishes over the years and for ease of application and overall shine you can't beat lacquer...and it's friggin' cheap, too.

There are a few caveats. As stated here many times, lacquer can lift previous finish coats of dis-similar composition. The rule is essentially anything can cover lacquer, but lacquer may lift anything else. If you have an old, say 20 years, original finish you may have no problems at all. Lacquer is solvent based, and when applied over previous coats of lacquer the new coats "melt" into the previous ones. That's why repairs on lacquer look so seamless...because they are.

If you were in the States I'd tell you to hit an auto parts store and look for Dupli-Color lacquer. I don't know the equivalent in Greece, so I can't help you much there.

If you want to test if lacquer will lift your existing finish on the guitar you want to paint, you can take some acetone (the real cheap nail polish remover is about 98% acetone) on a Q-Tip around a strap button. Dab it on and wait a few minutes. If it begins to bubble and lift off then you'll know.

Sorry I was AWOL on your initial post. I can fill you in on the step by step of refinishing if you're interested. Say the word and Captain Verbose rides again.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[Deleted]

Hey Cyn!, nice to have you around! I am pretty sure we have Dupli-color here. In the meantime I was busy testing those new EMGs on my old Kramer, and boy do I LOVE the new sounds and feel. Can't stop playing it.

Anyway, my problem with paints are theoretical. I know there are plastic (acrylic), enamel (oil based) , nitro, polyurethane, solvent-free, heck my daughter paints some wood in her room right now with some paint (solvent-free, needs 24hrs drying) she got from IKEA and I can't explain to her the chemistry behind it.

[newey]

Show cars get painted with lacquer. Delivery vans get painted with enamel. 'nuff said.

(the real cheap nail polish remover is about 98% acetone)

That was true at one time, I'm not sure it is anymore. My wife raises hell over the newer nail polish removers because they have changed the formulation due to kids "huffing" the acetone. Now they mostly have very little acetone, AFAIK, and, as a result, don't work very well. They don't smell like acetone, either.

But, saying that, I haven't actually gone down to the local CVS and looked at the labels, so maybe there is still the real deal stuff out there.

[Deleted]

So whats the difference between lacquer and enamel?

[sumgai]

gd,

Here's a link to search engine results:

Enamel vs Lacquer

For the most part, lacquer is softer, and over time it will tend to distort, thus causing what we call 'checking' - those are the stripes that show up as tiny cracks in the finish.  In comparison, enamel is much harder - one would be hard-pressed to find any 'checking' where enamel was used. See some of the results pages in the above link for more detailed explanations of why this is so.

HTH

sumgai

[Deleted]

thank you, and those differences have nothing to do with poly/nitro/acrylic/oil-based/etc?

one page brings up : enamel vs lacquer, another brings out enamel vs lacquer vs urethane, etc... it seems like some common words are mixed with chemistry bringing confusion. Add to this that I will need to translate everything to greek and it gets hard to understand. That's why I would prefer a step by step guidance and I would study the chemistry as a side project.

About those cracks, I have them in the old strat to be repaint. So enamel vs lacquer refers to mainly the clear coat?

[Deleted]

So we got these :

Acrylic Lacquer : duplicolor.com/product/premium-lacquer

Acrylic Enamel : duplicolor.com/product/premium-enamel

So Lacquer and Acrylic are not mutually contradicted
Both of the above are acrylic based. I have difficulty grasping the difference between lacquer and enamel if they are both :
- paints
- spray (aerosol)
- acrylic

what's the deal?

[Deleted]

Also Cyn, you say to paint over the old finish ?

I was under the impression that I must completely remove the old clear coat/paint/primer to bare wood, before I start work.

great explanations found here : duplicolor.com/faq#what-is-lacquer

So the difference between enamel and lacquer is not on the chemical composition but on the way the paint functions regarding to the material, does it work by evaporation of the solvent and no chemical reaction takes place (hence the old fashion), while enamels work by oxidation and polymerization and this is more high-tech durable (hence modern) technology?

In my case, this strat will be least played .... So I am going for what Cyn said : Acrylic lacquer by Dupli Color or equivalent.

PS
I just finished modding my old forgotten Kramer and haven't stopped playing it! Now I got 3.5 working guitars. Carvin accounts for the 0.5. This is also due to improvement to a full 1 so the total will be 4. The Strat will be the 5th guitar to be revived. Ain't modding fun?

[sumgai]

gd,

I'll not call myself an expert in front of cynical1, but it happens that my father took his degree in Forestry, way back about the time that dirt was invented. I grew up learning about woods, with a basement shop just full of all kinds of tools. (He also was a photographer, and taught the subject at the local university during WWII, but that's another story.)

To make this as easy as I can.... Over the last 50 years or so, various groups (government agencies, medical groups, lawyers, and the like) have all conspired to change the way we work with wood, particularly when it comes to finishing the stuff. For the most part, lacquer comes from the shellac of a particular kind of beetle, and by that means, we have a "sort of" renewable resource, but it's still expensive. But the important part here is, lacquer, being essentially organic, is something that decays over time. And from that, we get "oooohh, icky icky" from the Politically Correct crowd.  Yes it stinks during application, so what.  Stuff a rag in your nose and shut up already.

Technically, lacquer can't be synthesized, it would no longer contain the shellac from the beetle.  But the formula has changed in the last few decades, nowadays it's all "safe" - no more Volitile Organic Compounds (VOCs), or if they are present, they're greatly reduced from what things used to be, back in the day.  However, other elements can be used, and in those processes, we get finishing materials that are harder, i.e. enamel, polyurethane and others.  Either can be oil or water based, that's not an issue (except where odor might be problematic).  At this point, we start facing the decision tree of compromises:

Cost;

Effectiveness (durability);

Ease of application;

Time (before it's ready to use);

Appearance;

and probably other stuff too.

I think that c1 might say, 'there's five things on the list - you can have any four'.

As it happens, I'm applying some lacquer right now, to some stair treads (and risers) that I'll be using to replace the carpeting on our stairs.  It's a catalyized type, meaning that I have to add a small amount of hardener to the base that will make the final product much more durable, sort of like a Swedish finish.  It's a close cousin to what they use on the lanes in a bowling alley... it stands up to a lot of abuse, yet it's not a royal pain to strip it off and start over.  But my point is, it's water based - clean up is warm water and soap.  But it smells like what I remember from my childhood, seemingly like real lacquer.  Time will tell if I bought the right product (and did the job correctly).  Hopefully it will last more than a few days.

HTH

sumgai

[sumgai]

gd (again),

I see that you posted while I was composing.....

In essence, we're speaking of at least two different things here - base materials, and carriers. A carrier would be something like a solvent, or water. A base material would be the fibers that remain after the carrier has evaporated.

To my mind, the base material should be properly matched to the material being covered.  There are no "hard and fast" rules here, but consider.... the carrier's job is to penetrate the material (a car, or your guitar, whatever), and deposit some of the base material therein.  Depending on the porosity of the materials involved, one carrier might be more desirable than another, but that's not our problem - wood is very porous, so almost anything can be used.  The opposing viewpoint would be the vinyl coating that opened this thread in your first post - that stuff never penetrates at all, it's held on primarily by brute force of tension (stretching across an angle).  That was easily demonstrated by how the guy removed it in minutes with no tools (other than his hands).

---

As for removing everything prior to a refinish job.... if it was lacquer to begin with, then no, you need not remove everything - except where color might be an issue. Same color, go ahead and just cover over the old stuff, even a clear. Changing color, you probably want to take off all of the old stuff, or the resulting "bleed through" might not be what you expected.

If you're covering a lacquer finish with a non-lacquer type, c1 is correct in that you can safely leave the old finish in place. If it's old poly (or whatever), you'll need to sand it down to wood, because these kinds of finishes don't melt into previous layers.  And that means, they don't adhere to the wood underneath the original coat. In fact, they don't adhere to much of anything, because the previous enamel or poly is slick - roughing it up with sandpaper is usually considered good enough, but not even close to perfect, IMO.  (Maybe I'm being too fussy, so your mileage may vary....)

Hope that helps!

sumgai

[newey]

I've refinished several guitars with automotive lacquer out of a spray can- it was probably Dupli-Color brand, although I don't recall specifically. Like painting anything else, the care and preparation of the surface is everything. Spraying the finish coats is the easy part- the hard work has all gone in beforehand.

Unless the guitar in question was lacquer-finished to begin with, you can pretty much count on it having been dip-coated in some sort of urethane plastic finish. This requires going down to bare wood to get any adhesion of the new finish. From there, it's primer, sand, primer, sand . . .Cyn will surely give you the details better than I can. But plan to spend literally 90% of your time in surface prep before you ever get near a can of the color.

A friend and I once repainted a 1966 VW Beetle with spray cans. It took 12 cans, IIRC. It came out looking pretty good, but again, we had put in a lot of time with Bondo, primer and sandpaper first.

[Deleted]

Hey, great info there ppl.
The guitar in question is this one :
Untitled by panixgr, on Flickr

This was bought in 1984, this is an Aria Japanese version of a Strat with sunburst finish. Should I suppose this is lacquer or enamel?

Generally the classic debate among Strat afficionados is between traditionalists who prefer Nitro (Nitrocellulose) and modernists who prefer Poly (Polyurethane). So I understand that the base materials and carriers do not tell the full story, however should I suppose that Nitro is the old school lacquer which hardens by evaporation while Poly is the new tech which results into a much harder surface via a chemical reaction which bonds the surface with the base molecules making a new chemical substance ?

By looking at the guitar what should I suppose? If I do the acetone test what will it say about the color/paint of it?

[sumgai]

gd,

I can't presume what the final "top" coat was/coats were, but I'd lay money on the coloring being a lacquer of some sort. Nitrocellulose was (and still is) cheap, but it's not the most durable, as any number of old Fender's will attest. But the clue here is in the sunburst.... to get that gradual bleeding effect, it's almost certainly a result of one colored lacquer melting into an previous coat of another color. (In fact, the usual order of application is yellow, then black, then the red.)

Over that, you can put almost anything, as previously discussed. Being from an offshore manufacturer (although Aria was generally making better products than most companies), I'm loath to guess what they used, but after 33 years, I'd base my opinion on one of two things:

A) Observation - either the finish has several/many "fine", hairline cracks, or else it looks pristine.  This, of course, discounts scratching from wear and tear, I'm sure you can tell the difference.

B) A sample or test of the finish in covered areas - under the pickguard or the back springs cover, there should be some residual finish that was not buffed out before final assembly (for the obvious reason that factories don't spend the money on machinery that can do this level of detail work). If the guitar was dip-finished, the usual way to apply poly-type coatings, then the finish in this area will be hard as a rock, just like the rest of the guitar. If you can't sand it, and make good headway soon after starting, then it's probably not a lacquer top-coat, sorry to have to say.

HTH, and good luck with your project!

sumgai

p.s.  I have to be honest here, and admit that I tend to think before I post (though not always, as reTrEaD can attest!).  Thus it takes time, and I self-edit like crazy, because I keep changing how I say what I want to say.  Of course, doing all this means that many ideas come to mind, and sometimes I go off on a tangent, before coming back to finish my post. 

One of the ideas I had was about this "peelable" coating..... I imagine that if one really, really likes his guitar - tone, feel, whatever the reason(s) might be - then if he's off to play a tour of outdoor stadium gigs in the equatorial belt, he might like this sprayable plastic stuff.  Almost perfect protection against sweat and humidity, yet when he gets back home from the tour, he simply rips off the gunk, and his guitar is, once again, pretty as ever.  But me, I'd just take a cheapy Asian-made copy that can be tossed out after the tour has ruined it.... I'm cheap that way!

Another thought.... how many thieves will think to steal something that doesn't look valuable?   Little did they know that underneath that gooey-feelling finish there was a 1959 Strat, just 15 minutes away from a trip to Norman's Rare Guitars!

That was fun.

[Deleted]

20170123_200605 by panixgr, on Flickr

20170123_200524 by panixgr, on Flickr


Here it is, by sanding on the back it looks like the clear coat on the cars, pretty thick, left a lot of white dust, which I assume is the clear coat.

[Deleted]

in case this is polyurethane, and is hard to get to sand, I saw some chemical paint removers, are they any good?

point is that this guitar does not appeal to me in this shape....

call it a blasphemy against my own past..... I call this evolution ... giving life to something otherwise dead

[Deleted]

Hey SG

you know Rory Galaghers guitar right :
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Drnxh_RG_SC1961.jpg

I tell you , I could not have my Strat be in such a state not even if I was playing it daily for 100 years... I have the guitar since 1984 and still, besides the dents and scratches it keeps its original color.

I guess this is poly, then.... so What do I do? now?


sorry I edit as I think :

so, regarding durability we have :

nitro < lacquer of some sort < poly

and mine is poly?

[sumgai]

gd,

From your pictures, I don't think the topcoat is lacquer, it looks more like a poly to me. And the white dust from sanding, that pretty much puts it down for poly, too.

Chemically, yes, there are strippers that will make short work of this, but the trade off might be that these things are stinky, and can be quite messy to handle.  If you're prepared for all that, then I'd say go for it.  I think c1 had a thread about that somewhere around here, and I'd be surprised if you didn't also participate in that one as well.

Poly is by far the most durable finish, it resists almost any damage short of a hard-swung hammer.  But the reason "purists" don't like it is that it allegedly reduces the wood's ability to vibrate in sympathy with the strings. I've never been a fan of that argument, but since it's their money and not mine, I don't see any reason to enlighten them.   For me, tone is in the ear of beholder, and nowhere else.  'Nuff said.

sumgai

[Deleted]

thanks SG, I searched and found the said topic. I was not into painting back then
To be frank what I wanna do is idiotic. So I want a white strat with maple fretboard like Hendrix, Malmsteen and all the legends of the 70s/80s. The main reason I dont go to buy such a strat is space. I already have 6 guitars :
- Acoustic
- The said Strat
- The Kramer super strat I fit with EMG 85/81 just last week
- A Carvin super strat neckthrough 24.75" scale Cyn knows 1st hand
- Ibanez arz800 Single Cut mahogany, LP-style
- Ibanez uv70p 7-string

There is no place for a #7. And I rarely play the old Strat. I could retire that one and find some place in my home town at my mother's house, and then go and buy something/somehow but I know this is plain greed and I want to resist that. So if I want to satisfy my GAS I will have to play the price.

[cynical1]

Wow, you guys have been busy while I've been away...

As far as the practical side, since the technical side has been addressed previously in the above links...to strip or not to strip...

First off, from what I've seen so far, the guitar in question is an Aria. Very nice guitars, generally all well made and well worth their asking price. However, they are not covered in nitro cellulose lacquer. They never went past the lacquer aisle at the factory, either. More than likely you have the bane of re-finishers everywhere. What you probably have is the kryptonite catalyst duck soup of agents type of finish. Hard, durable, holds color well, with a bit of yellowing...and a PITA to remove. I've used 60 grit sandpaper and Klean Strip's Premium Stripper, a plastic scraper with the Afterwash...and these Asian finishes just laugh it off. All you can do is keep up the "lather, rinse, repeat" cycle on the above process until all the finish is gone. And screw the 15 minute wait time in the directions to begin scraping this stuff...give it 30 to 45 minutes (it's a gel, it'll stay put)and don't hold your expectations too high.

You can sand the old finish off. You could eat nails, too...might be more fun... Sanding the horns and radiused portions will need to be done by hand. A few hours of that and you'll be running for the high VOC toxic Eco-unfriendly type stripper stuff.

And beware metal or aircraft paint strippers on wood. E'nuff on that.

Another option is to use a heat gun to strip the old finish.  I've tried it a couple of times, with varied results.  If you get too close with the heat gun you run the risk of melting the glue and\or scorching the wood.  If you're really short on time you can strip the average guitar body with a heat gun in 15-20 minutes.  This is technique with a serious learning curve.  Consider that if you contemplate this option.

The reason I suggested leaving the original finish in place and spray over it is because that's just easier. It ain't like it's never been done before. Fender has sprayed nitro cellulose lacquer over a plastic coating, Fullerplast, since the 60's and people soil themselves to buy those models.   I'm guessing your Aria is out of the 80's or 90's. Any agents that might be effected by the lacquer have probably long cured away. I'm guessing if you soaked that body in acetone or lacquer thinner all you'd have to do is wipe it down to use it afterwards.

Look at it this way, the existing finish is hard and flat. You have no potential issues with wood grain raising up on you. All you'd need to do is fill any dents...if you wanted to...sand it with a 320 or 360 grit DRY sandpaper to rough it up and spray away. You can even use an etching primer before applying your white finish. Use a white primer and your lacquer will cover with fewer coats. White and red are always a pain to get good coverage with.

As far as repairing dents prior to using lacquer, Satellite City Special T is the bomb. Some CA gels have something in them that lift lacquer...Loc-tite in particular... It's a very thick gel and is completely sandable after it cures. Once painted it's invisible and will last longer than your finish.

One issue previously unbroached is where you plan on doing your spraying? Most lacquer is a breathing hazard. Honestly, most auto paints in general will kill you if you breath them over a long period without protection. Call me old fashioned, but IMHO if it ain't lethal, it ain't gonna last...

Another issue with spraying, in general, is contaminants that always seem to find your wet finish seconds after you put the gun down. Some plastic drop cloth can be used to make a temporary spray booth. A staple gun, some duct tape and 30 minutes can leave you with a nice work area.

I would caution against using a wire to suspend the body while painting. Making a piece to screw into the neck pocket, then screwed to a long narrow board so the body can be painted flat and rotated as you spray the different sides is a better bet. You can even support it on an upside-down garbage can with a sandbag on it. Flip as needed. Hey,  I didn't start out in the best facilities decades ago...funny what you remember as you get older...

Either way, the painting is the easy part. Wet sanding with 600 through 2000 grit sandpaper, rubbing compound, polishing compound, swirl remover...and wax if you want...it is an automotive finish, after all...that's where the work really comes in. I would caution about using 400 grit wet or dry. If you're going to burn through a new finish it'll be on a radius or curve, and I've found the 400 grit can cut really fast in those areas.

But remember...and this is critical...unless you bake it, lacquer needs about 20-30 days to cure prior to final sanding and polishing.  So, you also need to find a quiet place for it to sit unmolested for about a month...good air circulation and lack of living things in the general proximity are good.  The rule of thumb is, when you can stick your nose on the finish and not smell it, you're ready to polish.

Well, the Robben Ford show is over on YouTube, and the horses are reminding me it's dinner time.  It's hard to argue with 3500 pounds of hungry mammals...

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[Deleted]

Thanks Cyn1, I'll have to do some good research on this. My beloved local tech don't charge 300 EUR for painting for nothing. I think I am not up to the job. I don't have the tools, the patience, the space, the time. I might do this plasti dip thing just for the fun of it. There is also dupli-color sprayplast.

[sumgai]

Jan 24, 2017 5:12:01 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

There is no place for a #7.

Ah, we see. You're trying to avoid gumbo's signature malady, aren't you?

In case you've misplaced his signature (in your memory), I'll regurgitate it for you:

More than six guitars? It's only an addiction if you're trying to quit!

---

I guess my memory is shorter than I had thought, if you were not much into painting/repainting back during that first thread.  But just for drill, why don't you give this site a closer look - they may have something of interest for you:

ReRanch - Guitar Refinishing Supplies

HTH

sumgai

[cynical1]

Jan 25, 2017 0:21:57 GMT -5 @pyrros said:

...I think I am not up to the job. I don't have the tools, the patience, the space, the time...

...and when has that ever stopped you before...


It just looks scary. You can do this.


I've seen demos of the Vai swirl thing. Never tried it myself, but as I recall, the body has to be a solid color, preferably white or a light color, for it to look right.

Happy Trails -

Cynical One