dink
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Post by dink on Feb 21, 2017 6:21:39 GMT -5
HHH Kill switch Master volume 3 tone pullpots (1 for each hb) 3 mini spst (coil cut for each hb) 3 mini dpst on/on (coil select for each hb) 2 mini spst ( all 3 hb on together, neck/bridge together)
Just can't seem to get it all working correctly
Could someone please hook me up with any kind of diagram for this
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Post by reTrEaD on Feb 21, 2017 11:23:21 GMT -5
Hello dink, welcome to GuitarNutz 2
I'm pleased to see you've taken the effort to make a list of what you're working with. But there are some things that aren't quite clear. I'll reference your list (in blue) with some questions and comments. Then we can all be on the same page as to what you hope to accomplish.
Before we get to your list, I noticed you didn't mention a pickup selector. Is that an oversight or will you not be using a five-way blade type switch?
Kill switch Sounds easy enough. I would guess a spst momentary button of some sort. Push to kill.
Master volume No mention of a push-pull, so we'll assume this is just a regular pot. And since you will be using just one volume, the wiring should be very easy.
3 tone pullpots (1 for each hb) By "pullpot" I'm guessing you mean a pot with a push-pull switch on it? Is the switch DPDT? What function do you want the switch to have? Turn the pickup on and off?
3 mini spst (coil cut for each hb) Seems clear enough.
3 mini dpst on/on (coil select for each hb) So this is used in conjunction with the coil cut switches to determine which coil is selected in the coil-cut mode? Is "dpst" a typo? I think you'll probably want a dpdt or at least a spdt in that role. 2 mini spst ( all 3 hb on together, neck/bridge together) Since you didn't mention a pickup selector I don't understand the purpose of these two.
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dink
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Post by dink on Feb 21, 2017 21:36:09 GMT -5
Hello dink, welcome to GuitarNutz 2 I'm pleased to see you've taken the effort to make a list of what you're working with. But there are some things that aren't quite clear. I'll reference your list (in blue) with some questions and comments. Then we can all be on the same page as to what you hope to accomplish. Before we get to your list, I noticed you didn't mention a pickup selector. Is that an oversight or will you not be using a five-way blade type switch? Kill switch Sounds easy enough. I would guess a spst momentary button of some sort. Push to kill. Master volume No mention of a push-pull, so we'll assume this is just a regular pot. And since you will be using just one volume, the wiring should be very easy. 3 tone pullpots (1 for each hb) By "pullpot" I'm guessing you mean a pot with a push-pull switch on it? Is the switch DPDT? What function do you want the switch to have? Turn the pickup on and off? 3 mini spst (coil cut for each hb) Seems clear enough. 3 mini dpst on/on (coil select for each hb) So this is used in conjunction with the coil cut switches to determine which coil is selected in the coil-cut mode? Is "dpst" a typo? I think you'll probably want a dpdt or at least a spdt in that role. 2 mini spst ( all 3 hb on together, neck/bridge together) Since you didn't mention a pickup selector I don't understand the purpose of these two. To allow me to have all three hb when 5 way is in position 3. And neck bridge combo when in position 1 or 4
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Post by reTrEaD on Feb 22, 2017 2:48:50 GMT -5
Okay dink, we're making progress. A couple of questions I forgot to ask... The three HB, what brand/model and are they 4 wire plus ground? Color codes vary between manufacturers, so knowing what you have will help with using the right colors. 5 way Selector switch from squier strat Does it look like this? 2 mini spst ( all 3 hb on together, neck/bridge together) To allow me to have all three hb when 5 way is in position 3. And neck bridge combo when in position 1 or 4Bad News:I don't think that can be done with standard 5-way. Might be why you had trouble before. Not So Bad News:With one spst used as a Neck-on, or as a Bridge-on, or Neck-Bridge link, you can get N+B and all three. You won't be able to dictate where those combinations fall. For instance, with a Neck-Bridge link you would get. Normal: 5 - Neck 4 - Neck + Middle 3 - Middle 2 - Middle + Bridge 1 - Bridge Linked: 5 - Neck + Bridge 4 - all three 3 - Middle 2 - all three 1 - Neck + Bridge Neck-on or Bridge-on are easy enough to figure out how they would affect the map. Just add the pickup to all positions.
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dink
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Post by dink on Feb 22, 2017 9:13:19 GMT -5
Here you go
NECK HB North Coil start black end white South Coil start green end red
MIDDLE HB North coil start white End red South coil start green End black
BRIDGE HB North coil start green end red South coil start black end white
Yes that is the 5 way switch I have
Your way is what I thought but not what I wrote
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Post by sumgai on Feb 22, 2017 13:14:37 GMT -5
...... Your way is what I thought but not what I wrote So, reTrEaD gets to wear yet another new hat - long distance mind reader par excellence!
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dink
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Post by dink on Feb 22, 2017 20:12:16 GMT -5
lmfao
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dink
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Post by dink on Feb 28, 2017 21:18:25 GMT -5
So any ideas on how I should wire this stuff together
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dink
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Post by dink on Mar 7, 2017 7:42:01 GMT -5
Wow I guess I can't get no help guess I'll try somewhere else thanks anyway
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Post by newey on Mar 8, 2017 6:35:17 GMT -5
Dink-
Sorry that no one got back to you on this earlier (and you're certainly welcome to look elsewhere), but we're nowhere near at a point where someone can do a diagram for you. RT asked a number of questions about your plan which went unanswered. He then suggested that some version of a neck-on, or a bridge-neck link switch, might be a good option for you. You responded that this was what you had been thinking, without specifying which of the three options RT suggested would be what you wanted.
Making up a custom wiring diagram for you is a lot of work. The last thing any of us want is to do that work, only to have the inquirer respond that the diagram wasn't what they wanted. In short, we need to be very specific as to what is wanted before putting pen to paper. You original post was very vague, and your later responses didn't do much to clarify things. As a single example, we still don't have an answer to the very first question you were asked, as to how you want the kill switch to operate and what type of switch you will be using.
So, I'm sorry that you got frustrated, but I think the frustration was mutual . . .
(N.B.- Given his last post, I doubt that dink will be back to read this response. I am writing this more as a cautionary tale for those who may come along later.)
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 4:51:25 GMT -5
Actually there was only one I didn't answer and one that I was vague about. But when no one asked me to clarify both questions what am I think. I thought that I had answered the kill switch by saying it was a spst on off mini toggle But I apologize for the confusion and I do plan on coming back. Have a nice day
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dink
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 4:56:28 GMT -5
Maybe if I haven't pi ssed you guys off I would still appreciate any help you guys have to offer
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Post by newey on Mar 9, 2017 6:25:03 GMT -5
Well, you haven't p'd me off- at least not yet. I can pull together a diagram but it may be over the weekend before I get time away from actual work. But we're still at a bit of an impasse. As RT pointed out, your original plan won't fly with a regular 5-way switch, you'd need a Superswitch or the like. So, he suggested the other possibilities of a neck on switch, or a bridge on, or a neck-bridge link. The only real difference between these options is the manner in which you get the N+B and "all 3" settings. Which would you prefer? Either the neck on or the bridge on is the easiest. RT already gave you the switch positions for the N-B link. With a simple neck-on, you get N+B at position 1, all 3 at position 2, and M+N at positions 3 and 4, with the neck alone at position 5. A bridge on gives the reverse- N +B at #5, etc. Also, I take it that you have already obtained all the switches you'd need? If not, things could be simplified quite a bit by using 3 DPDT on-on-on switches to do the coil cutting and select the coil as well, thus eliminating the need for 3 separate switches to select the coils. (however, I don't think that can be done such that the "both coils" selection is in the center position, so the switching is a bit wonky). And, I still don't know what sort of switch is going to be used for the kill switch . . .
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dink
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 7:27:15 GMT -5
you tell me what Is best. Whatever is easiest for you. The kill switch is a spst on off toggle. I have everything except the super switch Tell me which one is best suited for this and I'll order it today. I have everything else. I leave it in your judgement
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Post by sumgai on Mar 9, 2017 10:48:02 GMT -5
dink,
Allow me to step in here for a moment, please....
First and foremost, Welcome To The NutzHouse!
Your description of the kill switch is good enough for me, I can envision the part you have on your workbench. I'm only curious - is this thing spring loaded so that you don't have to exert effort in both directions? I mean, you flick it one way, and it restores itself to the original position with no effort on your part... is that what you have? I'm sure you already know that an SPST mini-toggle can be ordered with or without that momentary action.
On the topic of "what's easiest for you", that's a loaded and smoking gun right there. There are several of us here have large amounts of experience at this kind of thing, so it's not 'what's easy' that's the bottom line, it's 'what does the player want to accomplish'. Under that rubric, it comes down to "we can use whatever switches you want, but really, how does your mind work when it comes time to actually change pickup combinations?"
Here's another way to look at it. Some guys like the Les Paul pickup selector (Rhythm, Both or Lead), others like the Strat-style (the so-called "blade" switch), and still others like mini-toggles to control everything. We've even seen Tone controls used to engage/disengage a pickup - not ordinary by any means, but for those who like 'stealth'....
So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and pretend that your mind works to a 'visual' model - see a switch, flick a switch. There's a certain beauty to that - the logic of the switch is independent of everything else. And even the smallest mini-toggle can withstand a lot of abuse (in high-energy live situations) before breaking down. So.... If I'm right, then I'm gonna do like the others here and suggest a pretty simple scheme. Basically, your first post told us what you want to accomplish - I'll rewrite that list of goals like so:
HHH Each can be turned on individually Each can be coil cut Each can be coil cut to one or the other coil Any of 7 parallel combinations can be achieved (no series stuff) Tone pot on each pup Master Volume Kill switch
(And me being the joker in the deck, I have to blurt out - "what, no blaster switch?" )''
From that, I don't see that you're specifically asking for a Superswitch, nor even any other kind of 'blade switch'. Good thing, because that gets more complicated in terms of obtaining all of the desired 7 combos. For this, I think you're better off without such a gizmo. Yes, it can be done, but the real estate needed (blade switch plus extra switch of some kind) is greater than just the three mini-toggles. And since you haven't mentioned what kind of guitar body all of this is going into, then now would be a good time to remind you that every Superswitch I've ever seen needs a full-depth body (1 3/4" thick), or else it won't fit... these babies are not tiny! (But more-or-less standard blade switches are shorter in depth, some more than others, so they can fit into thinner bodies.)
Bending onwards, I'm with newey when he says that you can simplify the number of mini-toggles needed. One (three-way) switch can select which coil to cut, or entirely off; or it can select Single/Off/Full, with the proviso that you've previously determined which coil to cut out of the circuit. The first of those two possibilities then says that you'll need a second switch to turn On/Off the pickup - I'll now presume that you intended for the Tone pot push/pull switches to do this job, amiright? We're still not complicated here, not by a long shot. (Don't ask, or I'll be forced to post a pic of CheshireCat's Ultimate Utah. Trust me, you don't wanna know!)
My only "suggestion" would be for ease of use. For me, and not for everyone I'm sure, I'd do this:
Since switching logic can be physically placed anywhere, I'd use three-way mini-toggles for Full/Off/Single, and use the Tone-push/pull switches to select which coil is to be the Single. In this way, I can set the push/pulls for my standard setup, and mess with them only when I need a custom tone/sound. Presumably, there's less possibility for mistakes, as fiddling with push/pull pots can be breathtakingly error-prone in the heat of a live performance, with thousands of your fans hanging on your every note! That's three mini-toggles, three p/p pots, and you've got every combo possible (in parallel only, of course). Now we're down to the kill switch, and I think you don't need any more input from me on that score, eh?
I'll back off for now, I've laid out some things for you to think about. If I'm off base with anything, now would be a good time to let us know. Or if I've raised any other concerns for you, then don't hesitate to ask, that's why we're here (well, most of the time.... ).
TL;DR Welcome! Sorry for ignoring you!! When did the blade switch enter the picture, I don't see it mentioned in your first post? KTHNXBY
sumgai Chief Cook and bottlewasher
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dink
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 18:36:33 GMT -5
OK so here's what it is give me a set of technic 1200's and I'm good. I'm just picking up the guitar mainlly so I can make samples to lay down on tracks with my Roland I don't know much about guitars other than i am trying to get as many different tones that I can. That's the reason I am down with you gents making the decisions You also just blew me away with the knowledge you hit me with.
Kill Switch. I do not want a momentary switch I want to cut off the guitar while i mess with my digital studio
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 18:39:25 GMT -5
The guitar is a Dean ML
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Post by dink on Mar 9, 2017 18:41:18 GMT -5
Attachments:
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Post by newey on Mar 9, 2017 22:56:48 GMT -5
dang, I always wanted to add one of those Dean MLs to the herd.
OK, if there isn't already a hole cut for the blade switch, then I'm definitely in sumgai's camp- ditch the blade switch and just use toggles to control the pups, together with your P/Ps.
It's easy to drill a hole for a toggle switch, while cutting a proper slot for a lever switch adds about 5 layers of complexity and requires some special tools to do it properly. I was sort of assuming the guitar already had a slot for a lever that you wanted to keep filled.
BTW, since the MX has a rear-routed cavity, you will need to be sure that any switches or pots you do buy have a sufficient shank to go through the body. Measure twice and cut once, as they say.
Now, as we zero in on a plan, a couple more questions:
First, it sounds like, rather than a "kill switch", you really just want an on/off switch, a/k/a a "standby switch", so that you can quiet the axe while you computer away. If we have individual pickup on/off/coil cut switches, you can achieve the "all off" condition by just having all three pups off- you wouldn't really need a separate switch for on/off. This would also simplify things and mean one less hole in your guitar. Would this solution be of interest, or do you really want a separate switch?
Also, your pickup wire colors are different for each of the three pups. Are these of different brands? (and, if so, what are they?)
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Post by sumgai on Mar 9, 2017 23:25:56 GMT -5
dink,
OK, we can go either way here. Your photo doesn't show me a 5-way blade switch, it looks more like a Gibson-style 3-way, is that correct? (Searching the web shows me images of various Dean ML guitars with both kinds of switches, hence my question.)
Since you aren't playing live (meaning, you don't care about how fast you can switch to a different combo), we can probably use whatever parts you've already purchased. Do me a favor, please, and post a list of parts you already have on hand. If we need to upgrade something, it's better to find out in the design stage, and not while the soldering iron is busy converting watts into wasted heat.
sumgai
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Post by dink on Mar 10, 2017 10:55:06 GMT -5
20 spst mini switches 10 dpdt mini on offf on 10 dpdt mini on on on 5 tpdt toggle on off on 8 push pull pots b500k 3 5 way fender blade type switches 3 3 way Gibson switches 8 a500k pots 8 b500k pots 4 output jacks
The bridge and neck HB pup are dragon fire screamers The middle pup is a twin rail mini HB Black Belcat hot rail I would still like the master on off switch so I can also make scratching sounds if it's possible The necks on all the hardware have a long enough shank.
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Post by dink on Mar 10, 2017 10:56:35 GMT -5
I hope I answered everything but I probably didn't
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Post by newey on Mar 10, 2017 16:39:05 GMT -5
No, I think we're pretty well zeroed in. If you already have DPDT On-On-On switches (in abundance, apparently!), then here's what I envision. You tell me if I'm missing anything from the wish list:
1) Each pickup gets its own DPDT on-off-on mini-toggle to select HB/Off/SC 2) Each pickup gets its own tone pot, with a P/P to select which coil is cut 3) A master volume 4) A master on/off switch
This then allows for all parallel combos of the 3 HBs, as well as all possible split coil combos. Not a bad little scheme, to my way of thinking.
The only real issue I see with this is that, given the 3 tone controls and the master volume, you will experience some interaction of the tone controls when you have more than one pickup selected. There's really no way around this given your stated parameters, but it shouldn't be a deal-breaker anyway. Guys who play 3-knob Flying Vs, Explorers, etc. deal with this and don't seem to mind it too much.
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 10, 2017 22:01:04 GMT -5
Firstly, The only real issue I see with this is that, given the 3 tone controls and the master volume, you will experience some interaction of the tone controls when you have more than one pickup selected. There's really no way around this given your stated parameters, but it shouldn't be a deal-breaker anyway. Guys who play 3-knob Flying Vs, Explorers, etc. deal with this and don't seem to mind it too much. Can't see it being too bad in the studio, as if you're recording you're just going to go back and fiddle all the knobs anyway between cuts rather than trying to flip a toggle and go. Secondly, Heya, Dink! Welcome to NutzHaus! On to point, I can't help but wonder if there might be more value in putting those Hummers into parallel than selecting which coil is active during coil cut mode... but that was almost an excuse to reply. I really just wanted to say hi, and to marvel at how awesome the core of this community continues to be! I did say almost, right? xD. If you want as many tones as possible, and you explicitly state this is the case, there is potentially significant value in going for intra-bucker parallel. Fair warning, you may be and I may have missed it. I have followed the thread, but reading is hard! I have never personally toggled the specific coil to be cut when cutting coils on humbuckers, so I don't know how much it matters. I would suspect it adds less versatility than an option to go parallel. Parallel is often compared to a coil cut sound, but with the hum still bucked, after all. If you're only recording, the 60 cycle may matter very little what with the kids and their walking on sumgai's lawn and their digital hoolahoops these days. Personally, I rarely cut humbucker coils anymore, since I'm not as much a fan of wiring up the bird nests as some of the lads and lasses (we have a lass or two, right?) we have around this place are. I prefer to go parallel when I have the option of one or the other, though that's just my personal mileage with it. From your basic mission statement of maximum tones, a little of each seems better. In My Opinion. P.S. I would never wire a humbucker into a guitar without the option to go parallel! And wait.... no 6 coils in series mode? Like sumgai says, we're still in simple mode!
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Post by newey on Mar 10, 2017 23:03:57 GMT -5
Just to follow up on what syd said . . .
I haven't had much luck cutting coils in those twin rail pickups, as the individual coils are too small to give a good output. But this one is apparently a "hot" rails, so maybe it won't be too much of a volume drop, I haven't tried it with a "hot" pickup.
The main reason for being able to select which coil is being cut is so as to maximize hum-cancellation. Dink's solution allows for all possible hum-cancelling combos. There may be a very subtle difference in tone between the two coils, but usually not much if both coils are identical. The slight positioning difference under the strings is the only variable if the coils are identically wound; the difference, if any, is more likely to be heard on the bridge pickup than on the neck, as the string excursion makes more of a difference near the end of the strings.
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 11, 2017 0:08:28 GMT -5
Ah, right! I failed to understand the reasoning behind the current thinking. My bad. However, if the proper (ly hum canceling) coils are wired into the setup... uh-oh, I just had a nutz idea... Switch(s) to cut them all in as few-a-moves as possible, and then a series of switches to turn it into a nutzd up stratocaster? Sorry... I had a moment... Anyway, It could be wired to have as effective a hum canceling series of combinations as possible with something simple(xD) and then use those push-pulls for parallel rather than coil selection. I could easily be mistaken, but as for hum canceling combos, the standard strat setup with 2 and 4 is there, and additional wiring only gives us B+N? A Neck On or Bridge On could handle such a task, if I'm not severely wrong (it's been known to happen). I just have a difficult time seeing this playing out without intra-pup parallel. Inter-pup series can honestly toss off; it sounds like spaghetti with dungsauce. Wait, we don't have a 5 pos switch, do we... I don't want to be that guy who comes in at the 11th hour and starts to second guess set plans, but nothing here seems set. It seems that the spirit of the thread is Dink wanting to get as much as possible... Hey, Dink, this might be a good time to ask how much experience you have with guitar wiring / reading diagrams and schematics!
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Post by dink on Mar 11, 2017 0:51:46 GMT -5
Well let's see I'm a commercial / residential electrician with 16 years experience. My mind is on overload. But I was the electrician on the conversion of D.C. to ac power:
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 11, 2017 0:54:09 GMT -5
No slouch, then! I'd hope. Feelings on parallel, Mr. Westinghouse?
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Post by newey on Mar 11, 2017 9:03:32 GMT -5
Ceratinly, series/parallel switches could be employed here, but dink hasn't said he wants to go that route. It could also be added later. He certainly has sufficient switches!
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Post by newey on Mar 11, 2017 10:41:23 GMT -5
OK, dink, here's a diagram as per sumgai's take on this. On-Off-On switches for each pickup to select HB/Off/SC. P/Ps on the tone pots select which coil gets cut. Several notes: 1) I have used the wire colors you posted, but if the bridge and neck HBs are from the same manufacturer, it's odd that the colors differ. You probably should double check that to be sure. 2) White wires are shown as gray for clarity. 3) As shown, on each of the pickups, the North coil will be selected when the P/P is in the down position. After I did the diagram, it occurred to me that it would be better to have the middle pickup select the opposite coil so as to be hum-cancelling with the N and B when in the "down" position. Otherwise, you'd have two P/Ps down and one up for hum cancelling with the middle pickup. Conversely, if you expect to use the N + B combo more than the middle, you might want to select the opposite coil on one or the other of those pickups so you get hum-cancelling with both the N and B P/Ps in the down position. This is easy enough to do. You just swap the positions of the red and black wires on the P/P pot that you want to cut to the opposite coil. 4) Since we're only using one pole of the P/P pots, you could substitute 3 SPDT on-on switches for the coil selection instead of the P/P pots. Some people find P/P pots to be a PITA. 5) The On-Off SPDT switch shunts the output rather than leaving the "hot" line disconnected. This is a better way to go, so avoid the temptation to just use a SPST On-Off for that switch. 6) I have shown the grounding using a "star ground" scheme, but you can certainly use the back of the pots for grounding if you wish. For clarity's sake, I have omitted the bridge ground, as well as any grounds for the switch chassis (not really necessary anyway). 7) Finally, I make plenty of mistakes in my diagrams, so let's get someone to vet this before you fire up the soldering iron! EDIT: I see that Photobucket cut off the bottom of the diagram. Obviously, the South Starts for each of the pickups need to connect to the grounding point.
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