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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 10, 2017 22:31:52 GMT -5
So I was browsing the interwebs and stumbled upon a delightful YouTube channel for Crimson Guitars. Basically, the guy is a luthier who owns a custom shop in BritLand, and he makes weekly YouTube vids. Anyway, he has a thing with copper guitars. (I can't find the one where he talk about construction, but he isn't... overly specific anyway) Essentially he's making semihollows with copper tops, as well as copper leaf plating other guitars. Thoughts on metal guitars? Any electrical concerns? Tone issues? Is copper a good tonewood, etc?  I'll throw a link up onto the reference section, because they have very good videos of them doing specific things with maintenance and repair. |
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Post by newey on Mar 10, 2017 23:32:05 GMT -5
Definitely stay away from playing it at outdoor festival shows in the rain . . . Well, only the top is copper, the rest is apparently wood, so you're dealing with a combination of materials. But he's got a pair of Bare Knuckles Nail Bombs in there- it's going to sound more towards the metal end of the spectrum anyway. And the Orange amp no doubt adds some dirt to the proceedings. Guy down in Pensacola makes the whole damn guitar out of aluminum. They look to be solid-bodied but I assume they must have plenty of internal chambering or they'd weigh a short ton. But pretty- and pretty expensive! Electric guitar company |
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 11, 2017 0:32:08 GMT -5
Hey, my emote was important! You know full well I consider the myth of electrical guitar tonewood busted! Jokes aside, I guess it would save on shielding tape? Okay, jokes were only half aside. Those guitars looks pretty outstanding, though. I want need a Duane Denison Chessie at some point in my life. Bet they collect fingerprints the way we collect strat clones. I've toyed with the idea of using some conductive spray type of business and copper plating an entire guitar body for giggles. I have a control plate cavity, truss rod cover, and maybe a hard tail bridge I'm going to electro copper plate tomorrow as my test run... yeah, for that 7 year old Ibanez project.  I'll use some patina agent on it to get away from that high maintenance sheen... if I happen to accomplish it in the first place. EDIT: They really need someone to edit their website... SBS Pet Peeve Alert... |
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Post by newey on Mar 11, 2017 10:57:44 GMT -5
There are newer painting processes for metal finishes that custom car guys are using these days. No need to acid-bath parts and have them re-chromed, you just paint on the chrome finish. The stuff looks amazingly realistic, done properly you can't tell it's paint. Not just chrome, either- all types of metal finishes are available.
Looks like the guy at Crimson used that sort of thing on the back of the guitar, then distressed it out.
So you might want to look into that before you go the plating route.
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Post by sumgai on Mar 11, 2017 12:05:36 GMT -5
.... Metal guitars (or metal-clad guitars)....
.... outdoors/rain....
.... shielding....
As they say, there's an app for that! Or in this case, it would be called an RF cable.  |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 11, 2017 12:11:06 GMT -5
Well, IMHO, it all comes down to how well does the instrument preserve and present the string energy. I wouldn't say the tattoo ink has soaked completely through yet on this guy.
It makes sense if you think about it. Bronze and brass are both commonly seen used in instrument construction for centuries. Both bronze and brass are primarily copper alloyed with either tin for bronze of zinc for brass. Most bells are around 90% copper, and bells can certainly preserve and present a tone very well...remember what Chuck Berry said...
With the copper leaf he has installed on the wood body it's probably the best shielded hollowbody guitar you're likely to find out of the box.
And the Bare Knuckle pickups...well, how can you screw up with those little monsters?
All in all, I'm certain it sounds a helluva lot better than the video represents. It's clever and functional.
I wish him luck against the entrenched pragmatism that makes up the guitar buying public.
Interesting find.
Happy Trails
Cynical One
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 13:58:44 GMT -5
One thing that concerns me is that of the magnetic properties of metal and whether its vibration would interact with the pups coils causing unwanted signal. Like when we have pups that have loose coils/bobbins therefore are not considered "tight" because muting is not instant, they behave like they have reverb or smth.
Example : in this sense my EMG 81 is very tight, whereas the Dimarzio Blaze or the EMG 85 not so much.
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Post by sydsbluesky1 on Mar 11, 2017 17:45:25 GMT -5
There are newer painting processes for metal finishes that custom car guys are using these days. No need to acid-bath parts and have them re-chromed, you just paint on the chrome finish. The stuff looks amazingly realistic, done properly you can't tell it's paint. Not just chrome, either- all types of metal finishes are available. Looks like the guy at Crimson used that sort of thing on the back of the guitar, then distressed it out. So you might want to look into that before you go the plating route. Yeah, I've surfed pintrest a bit and come across some nifty metal paints that would leave some change after a 20 dollar bill. Meanwhile, I have all the stuff to electroplate sitting around the garage! I decided to nickle on the aluminum first, which is a massive bother... and took hours... but worked! Things went South with the copper coat, likely due to my source of copper being less than pure. Looked like heavily tarnished silver right out of the bath. I didn't feel like making more nickle acetate, and I wasn't all that enthused with copper anyway; the path of copper would require me to do a loooot of plating! I hit it with the black paint and called it a day. Interesting little proof of concept. |
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Post by strat80hm on Mar 15, 2017 13:07:20 GMT -5
Well, IMHO, it all comes down to how well does the instrument preserve and present the string energy. All in all, I'm certain it sounds a helluva lot better than the video represents. It's clever and functional. Good points - makes me realize that after all the years i might just be sort of deaf. Not literally yet, my hearing test is still surprisingly perfect actually - although i might soon, as i played rock guitar & bass on tour for decades after all, and still do play with drummer & bassist on daily basis) But i mean - when listening (with my ears, the old-school way) to the music made (which i naively consider the bottom line of all of our tweaking our toys), i had never been able to tell wether it was maple, mahogany, basswood, wenge, aluminum (not even copper), you name it..that was the under the hood (or the fingerboard) - neither had i ever been able to hear wether the toy was manufactured in far east asia, eastern europe, northern america, south of the US border..) - nor wether the nut and saddle were made of bone, tusq, copper or mere plastic - nor wether the pickups were direct mounted or using some 3D printed custom-made rings - my ears never let me guess wether the finish was poly or nitro or raw - heck i could not even tell from ear wether the instrument had a pickguard nor wether it was a 1, 2 or 3 ply one. My point? Just call me deaf. I too still have my eyes though haha |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 15, 2017 18:20:28 GMT -5
But i mean - when listening (with my ears, the old-school way) to the music made (which i naively consider the bottom line of all of our tweaking our toys), i had never been able to tell wether it was maple, mahogany, basswood, wenge, aluminum (not even copper), you name it..that was the under the hood (or the fingerboard) - neither had i ever been able to hear wether the toy was manufactured in far east asia, eastern europe, northern america, south of the US border..) - nor wether the nut and saddle were made of bone, tusq, copper or mere plastic - nor wether the pickups were direct mounted or using some 3D printed custom-made rings - my ears never let me guess wether the finish was poly or nitro or raw - heck i could not even tell from ear wether the instrument had a pickguard nor wether it was a 1, 2 or 3 ply one. My point? Just call me deaf. Not deaf, just normal. I agree, in the real world it's virtually impossible to listen to a blind recording of an instrument and provide a Rain Man like dissertation of the particulars. However, if you take similar instruments with similar components and identical amplification it is possible to hear subtle differences in the final output based on the wood used...provided no GeeWhiz technology has been applied to the signal. Same thing with bolt-on, versus set neck versus neck-through. If all things are equal you can notice subtle "color" variations in the output. And while you may not be able to tell if it's bone or Tusq in the nut or saddle...it may be a coin toss...you'll sure notice the hollow cheezy plastic ones... The thing I notice most is how the instrument feels unplugged. I have an ancient Peavey bass made out of a bolt-on maple neck and poplar body. For whatever reason it just feels bouncier through the body. I have an imbuia bass that just holds a note forever and is much cleaner and clearer than the poplar bass. What I notice is that I play them differently as well. It still comes down to what you can get out of it more so than what made it out of. Look at the guitar Eric Sardinas uses compared to the one Matt Bellamy uses. Technologically, it's the difference between a Ferrari and a Schwinn. But both of these guitarists pull the most out of their instruments...IMHO...becasue of how the guitar feels in their hands and through their body...not because of the tree it came out of. Just my two cents...expended because I just don't feel like feeding horses in the rain again... Happy Trails - Cynical One |
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Post by strat80hm on Mar 16, 2017 17:09:34 GMT -5
Yup i was absolutely referring to "hearing" the guitar "in context" (live or on a recording). Now when it comes to handling the instrument, my defective ears can absolutely notice differences - lately i was comparing the unplugged sound made by a hollow-body from the early 70s to its 21st century counterpart from the same maker: there was no question about it: MAJOR contrast unfavorably to the newer model unfortunately - not easy to replicate the sweet rich sound that comes out of these old planks of wood - so yes i agree, wood make real tonal differences. But the rest of the time, it s mostly - if not all - subjective changes, or as you nicely put it "subtle "color" variations". It has always been quite intriguing to witness players changing guitars multiple time on stage (or on recordings) and yet not hearing a single difference in the speakers haha - besides the open-tuning options naturally. I m with you, the final sound is about the performance the player put into the instrument - said performance partially linked to how the instrument makes her feel - said feelings linked to the actual sensual experience of said instrument - and i guess there we have it, a feedback loop, a moto perpetuo. Ok then, there IS a difference... although outta reach for my listener s ears, which is probably why a lot of instrument tweaking sometimes seems like it s a lot of ado for what feels like merely "visual tweaking" i guess my rant ends here: I guess it all started out of disappointment in front of that impressive looking custom Crimson copper top guitar which sounded exactly like.. a guitar!  |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 17, 2017 15:32:26 GMT -5
I guess it all started out of disappointment in front of that impressive looking custom Crimson copper top guitar which sounded exactly like.. a guitar! Well, I'm betting my money that it's because it is a guitar... A piano sounds like a piano...but let Esbjörn Svensson get a hold of it and everything changes. He manipulates the acoustic signal into something completely different by electronically processing the original string vibration. But when you take all the geewhiz crap away it sounds like a piano again. So, the copper top guitar sounds like a guitar. All the marketing bile and\or urban legend mystic voodoo bullsh!t doesn't change the fact that stringed instruments all have pretty much the same engine, varying only when the string material or construction, method of attack on the strings or design\scale of the fretboard is factored in...because they all rely on the string energy or vibration to produce a note. Don't get me wrong, though. If I want a deep full tone going to my basswood guitar with the baseball bat maple neck, 13's with the neck and middle single coil pickups in series with the tone rolled almost all the way down will howl like an elephant giving birth in a storm...through the right pedals and amp, of course... I think it still comes back to whatever you believe you will follow...and it doesn't have to be accurate or based in fact to attract believers...as recent elections have shown... Sure, there are some guitar tones you can't get on certain setups...try and slap on a fretless bass with flatwound strings...but it still comes back to "guitar" tones. I read an Allan Holdsworth interview on why he took a second mortgage out on his house and started using a SynthAxe. He said that all the guitars he had used all sounded like a guitar...and he didn't especially like a "guitar" tone. But, since all of his practice and muscle memory revolved around the guitar he was locked into that musical format. Is it ironic that most tone Nazi's will proselytize their specific wood Gods...but they're the first ones looking at the new pickups, effects, amps and signal processing units at the trade shows... But hey, that's what makes all this nonsense so much fun... Happy Trails Cynical One |
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Post by strat80hm on Mar 20, 2017 1:43:21 GMT -5
Is it ironic that most tone Nazi's will proselytize their specific wood Gods...but they're the first ones looking at the new pickups, effects, amps and signal processing units at the trade shows... But hey, that's what makes all this nonsense so much fun... Totally with you on this - and i realized the non-sense very early on (flashback: i officially started by 8-9 on my dad s electric, a rattling mid-70s Les Paul (inspired, at least visually) Made in Japan Maya with a bolt on neck, single coil pickup (did i discover as it naturally became my first victim), hollow-top (to create the curve..): the sound i had at rehearsal (started first bands at 11-12) already had the same unfortunate characteristics that i have been trying to change/improve my whole life - end of flashback) For the better AND the worst, i still get that "sound" regardless of the guitar i play -granted it "improved" a little, but really not much at all, i just got used to it and i guess it s "my" sound. Same on the classical guitar - the same sound comes out of when i play nylon strings (and yet i have model/wood/design from Yamaha, Cordoba, Ibanez, Alhambra, LaPatrie, etc.. and at least 3 different systems on them (Fishman, LRBaggs, Yamaha, even the new A.R.T..) - i EQ them the exact same ways and get the exact same sounds. It would be like hoping for a drastic change in my (backup) voice by switching a SM58 to a Neumann U87 - it actually happens all the time - but no luck, same voice haha Speaking of the "Regime" - i m sure more than one guitar lovers is hearing the "Made in America" revival thing with some sense of excitement.. Doesnt slapping the roundwound on the fretless create the rockabilly thang by the way? |
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Post by cynical1 on Mar 20, 2017 17:02:49 GMT -5
...the sound i had at rehearsal (started first bands at 11-12) already had the same unfortunate characteristics that i have been trying to change/improve my whole life - end of flashback) For the better AND the worst, i still get that "sound" regardless of the guitar i play -granted it "improved" a little, but really not much at all, i just got used to it and i guess it s "my" sound. So, inquiring minds want to know...what unfortunate characteristics are we talking about? I'd be a lot more excited if I had a shop... What would make me smile a bit more is if there was a non-geographical shift towards craft and pride in said craftsmanship. Palm slapping an upright will do that. Trying it on the standard electric bass has always struck me as a sound similar to a failing hard drive...but YMMV... Happy Trails - Cynical One |
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Post by strat80hm on Mar 21, 2017 0:33:11 GMT -5
A trebly "quality" - i remember my bandmates at rehearsal suggesting switching the speaker (probably a 8 or 10") of my (dad s) amp - EmThree studio 15 made in italy (volume, tone, tremolo) - to get more "bass" (i never did it happily)
Later, i got a used 50w Marshall solid-state from a friend - same. I remember a friend of mine had a fuller sound with an Aria Pro II with a Dimarzio SuperDisto through a 15W Peayey
My next one was the first Peavy Classic 50 - and by that time i finally got my first electric guitar (used ESP kit with floyd and S.Duncan that i got for cheap) - and the sound characteristic was improved, yet still the same.
Today, i know how to EQ my guitars to get a very nice sound so it s never been any issue professionally, but the original sound is the same then when i was 11 i d say
Another friend of mine had the opposite issue - his sound always lacked of brightness, even on a strat or a steel-string - and that situation stayed even when we d swap instruments, it was really in our touch/fingers/bones!
I hear you - i dont think that Cheeto..huh..45 has any grip on that though who knows? - the same way Planned Parenthood saw a big increase in its donations, one can always imagine some sort of backlash that d benefit home-made craft & quality over factory lutherie.
Inspiring indeed
Even with a sponge underneath the strings?
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I'll use some patina agent on it to get away from that high maintenance sheen... if I happen to accomplish it in the first place.
