On/Off/On Switch as a 3 way switch??

[jbrenard]

Hi, I am trying to think of a way to use an on/off/on switch instead of a 3 way toggle as they are a fraction of the price.

I understand that regular toggle functions as an off/on/off 

What I am thinking is that my two On's need to short out their respective pickups while the middle OFF would leave both unaffected and left on. 

Any ideas as to how to do this?


Not sure how to short out each pickup in the On positions. 

[newey]

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

I understand that regular toggle functions as an off/on/off

If, by "regular toggle", you mean one like Gibson uses on LPs and SGs, etc., then no. That switch is a single-pole, double throw (SPDT) "on-on-on" switch.

Toggle switches come in many types. DO you already have a switch that you intend to use? If so, how many poles does it have? (you can tell by the number and arrangement of solder lugs)

[JohnH]

If you are set on using an on off on, you can wire the pickups in series and use the switch to short out one or none or the other. The middle combined setting, with both in series will be louder and thicker sounding than the usual parallel combo.

[jbrenard]

Can I wire a series/parallel mini switch and leave it on and buried in the guitar as a work around? 

I can get all sorts of neat looking heavy duty on/off/on switches for 40 cents opposed to a $20 switch craft. I already use an industrial 2 way on/on switch and I just love how it looks and snaps into position. Also I can replace the part so cheaply. I think figuring out an on/off/on work around would be a huge score. 

Thanks for the feedback guys! 

Are you sure a regular is on/on/on/ newey? I thought that too, and that is what I was looking for initially at the electronics market and people thought I was a nut. When I studied the original broke toggle I noticed that when you move to a single pickup selection the toggle pushes apart 2 pieces of metal breaking the hot connection. So I think that would be an "off" When I saw that I thought. Ok how can I apply that breaking the connection principle to the "on" positions of the standard on/off/on switch. 

I haven't quite figured out how to "break" the connections from the "off" positions, so I thought I run it by the forum because I think it is worthwhile as a cost saving measure. 

[newey]

I

can get all sorts of neat looking heavy duty on/off/on switches for 40 cents opposed to a $20 switch craft.

I'm sure these can be found a lot cheaper than $20, even for the Switchcraft ones. Gotoh ones can be had for about $12. But still, as you say, not 40 cents. But if you buy from electronics supply houses like Mouser.com things are much cheaper than buying from guitar parts vendors.

I think JohnH is right, this can be done in series but not in parallel. A hidden series/parallel switch would not alleviate the problem (assuming you leave it set to parallel). The basic problem is that, in parallel, both hot leads meet together at some point. If you short one to ground to cut out one pickup, you're also shorting the other since they're both connected together.

Are you sure a regular is on/on/on/ newey? I thought that too, and that is what I was looking for initially at the electronics market and people thought I was a nut. When I studied the original broke toggle I noticed that when you move to a single pickup selection the toggle pushes apart 2 pieces of metal breaking the hot connection. So I think that would be an "off" When I saw that I thought. Ok how can I apply that breaking the connection principle to the "on" positions of the standard on/off/on switch.

What you're describing is the "break before make" switching- it breaks the one connection before it makes the new connection to the other lug. But it is nonetheless an On-On-On switch, since a connection is being made in all three switch positions.

[jbrenard]

Darn thats too bad Ill stick to my 2 settings I guess. I'm in Asia so guitar related stuff is subject to luxury tax. We have a market with lots of chap odds and ends. Capacitors galore.

[b4nj0]

JohnH is correct. this can only be achieved with a series arrangement. Like yourself, I acquired a great aerospace On-Off-On with a nice clunky throw and a neat rubber dust / moisture gasket around the toggle. I wanted to add a P90 to a single bridge hummer LP Junior type. I thought about it for hours before I came to the same conclusion as JohnH. I had a fancy idea to post the simple circuit as a coffee break poser for confirmation, but the circuit is indeed so simple that it seemed a bit trifling for our esteemed experts. In the end, I converted the hummer to a P90 and the switch resides in the junk box awaiting a deserving application. I have an enormous "junk box" as one of our most valued members (and mod) no doubt suspects...

[JohnH]

If your pickups are not too hot, you might like that series option.

What other switches and knobs are you having? There may be interesting options to combine with it using caps, partial bypass of one pickup or bass/treble PTB tone controls.

[sumgai]

Coming late to this thread, so in the immortal words of Steve Martin - excuuuuuuuuuse me!

I read through it more than just briefly, but for the life of me, I see nowhere that jbrenard actually explained his final goal - IOW, what does he really want to accomplish...

---

jb:

Hi, and welcome to The NutzHouse!

I see where you are thinking to replace a broken switch, but then there's talk of using some other part that's not an exact replacement.  What I'd like to see is a diagram (schematic or parts layout) of what you had, and another showing (roughly!) what you're looking to accomplish in the end.  If a diagram is out of the question, then a textual description will at least get us on the road to helping you more concisely, without stumbling around more than the usual (for us Nutz).  If you have parts on hand, let us know, and we can work with that (within physical limitations, of course).  If you have other 'restrictions', like it must appear to be bone-stock, let us know that too, if you please.

HTH

sumgai

BTW.... newey, your description of a standard LP/SG switch being an SPDT is not quite correct, but rather it's a pair of them that are physically operated by a common handle, but aligned with only one common position, that of both on.  (And even more technically, this arrangement essentially becomes a DP3T, with two of the six terminals missing.)  Small nit to pick, but sometimes we have to stay on the same page, particularly when we're about to go Nutzing around inside of someone's axe....

[reTrEaD]

Apr 4, 2017 20:20:19 GMT -5 sumgai said:

BTW.... newey, your description of a standard LP/SG switch being an SPDT is not quite correct, but rather it's a pair of them that are physically operated by a common handle, but aligned with only one common position, that of both on.  (And even more technically, this arrangement essentially becomes a DP3T, with two of the terminals missing.)

Ackshully ...

It's none of those things.
A DP3T is what a Telecaster three-way is.
And I can guarantee that is capable of things the standard LP toggle can't do.

Ifn ya wanna get all technical on us, a standard LP toggle is:

A three-position SPST (Off-On-On) mechanically connected to a three-position SPST (On-On-Off)

[newey]

A three-position SPST (Off-On-On) mechanically connected to a three-position SPST (On-On-Off)

I was trying to avoid being too technical, but the above description caused me an "Aha!" moment- hadn't thought of it that way.

DP3T is technically incorrect, as a separate "throw" implies a separate electrical connection is being made. For this reason, the DPDT On-On-On switch is just that- 2 throws, not three, even though it has a center position, no new connection is being made, just a combo of the connections already made.

[sumgai]

Apr 5, 2017 5:50:55 GMT -5 newey said:

DP3T is technically incorrect, as a separate "throw" implies a separate electrical connection is being made. For this reason, the DPDT On-On-On switch is just that- 2 throws, not three, even though it has a center position, no new connection is being made, just a combo of the connections already made.

And therein lays the rub....

In the days of yore, a throw meant a physical connection of two conductors, meaning that if the wires were carrying current (the "On" condition), then it followed that this was a throw.  Stated in the vernacular of the early 20th Century, you never "threw" the switch OFF - you just didn't, it wasn't a part of the language at the time.

However, even in my youth, people in the field started thinking, and saying, that if you were 'throwing' the switch handle in some direction, then why should "Off" be excluded from having a say in the matter.  Well, that lead to the demise of a 'single throw' switch, although in some cases, some retailers still sell such a beast, the understanding being that it's a simple (I mean, dirt simple) on-off switch, and nothing more.  But more confusingly, we can find in various catalogs, without much effort, 'double throw' switches that are also nothing more than on-off switches - two positions, baby, and that's all there is, take it or leave it.

All of which points out that even in our somewhat simple corner of the electronics world, the terminology is evolving.  Making that fact a nightmare is that it isn't evolving at the same rate for everyone in the business - just take a gander at any three mass-market retailers (or even wholesalers/jobbers), let alone all the mom-and-pop retail stores... it's enough to drive a guy around the bend.

I have to say, judgmental as I  am (or perhaps the first syllable is inappropriate here), that having three throws for a single-throw switch seems a little.... out of bounds?  I don't wanna go all technical, and I certainly don't have the pull to make everyone hew to my version of a purported dictionary, but three throws yielding a single throw function? Come on, people, this isn't some kind of new math here, is it?

Further, per my description above, non-classic switch definitions have always been around, and when they do appear (usually to fulfill a 'special' function that was theretofore unfillable), an ancillary description was the norm for the day.  Not every switch can serve every purpose with a simple xPxT descriptor, I'm sure you'll all agree.  For reference, consider stacked potentiometers.... oh boy, we're in it now.

That's all I have to say on the matter.  Let the fun and games begin!

sumgai

[jbrenard]

This is the sort of stuff I can get. Notice the pots! I am using the original alpha's instead. I used to have a rotary switch installed and had

1N H2 MH  3BH 4SN 5SM 6SB

At one time I just had on/off for each pickup. I never noticed they were series when both activated. I remember tinkering with the Hot and Ground to get the right tone for In Phase/OutPhase and at one time I had a switch for that too! I forgot about series and parallel. I didn't notice a boost in volume.


When using the guitar in real life scenarios, I found that too many options fumbled me up. Usually I was either on the Neck or Bridge. 

I need to source an arcade button. I used to put an arcade kill switch on every guitar. These mickey mouse buttons are nowhere as responsive as arcade buttons. 

Oh, also I use a stereo amp type jack because I like how they snap the cable into place and I got a bunch for $1. 

I noticed my picture isnt very clear but the pots they sell here just have pins for lugs and they are mini. A proper CTS is about $9 at the store. 

[newey]

but the pots they sell here just have pins for lugs and they are mini.

Those are designed to mount to a printed circuit board. It's a pain to try to solder wires to those although it can certainly be done with a steady soldering hand.

You know, jbrenard, it's been awhile since we had to crank up the "semi-unofficial GuitarNutz back-door parts supply chain". But, for those members who have problems sourcing certain parts at a reasonable price in their particular neck of the woods, we have done so in the past. And we can do so again, if need be- a PM to me or some other gai could well reopen that particular route . . .Basically, if it can fit in a bubble-wrap envelope and transit through the regular mails, then there are Nutz in the USA who can help.

(Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink, Say no more . . . )

[jbrenard]

I really appreciate that offer newey and really feel welcomed by it. Unfortunately, nothing comes into here without an inspection. Uncle adds his tax and then the fellas usually need some coffee money. The luxury tax is worked into the price at the guitar store and its less hassle. I actually really enjoy using the local parts because the kludgeyness is really in the spirit of the country. I just did a clean rewire of everything and am going to keep it simple with just the 2 seperate pickups settings... for now. 

Best, JB!