alexis
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Post by alexis on Dec 1, 2017 12:45:55 GMT -5
Hello all. This is my first post.
I have become interested in the wirings of 3 single coils that enable all 17 possible combinations excluding phase. On this forum I think there are wirings that achieve this with 4 switches (3 x 4P3T, 1 x 3PDT) although I cannot be sure about the switches needed since the pictures are gone.
But that still makes 54 switching combinations for only 17 pickup combinations ; a lot of redundacy.
I think it can also be achieved with 3 3PDT and 1 DP4T, 32 switching combinations and logical layout (1 switch per pickup, on mode switch) but with hanging coils.
On 1748.org, there is a wiring that achieves this with 4 SPDT and 1 SPST. That makes 32 switching combinations. Better, but still not ideal (besides, that switching configuration does not seem to follow a discernable logic that can be related to the switch layout).
So I have been thinking hard and I think I may have come up with a possible better solution : a 6P3T (switch 1) that "moves the pickups around" as if on a carrousel and assigns the neck, middle and bridge pickups to be pickup 1, 2 or 3; and a 4P7T (switch 2) that selects either of 7 modes (1 pickup ;PP;SS;PPS;SSP;PPP;SSS).
So in the tables below, A, B, C, D, E and F represent points in a circuit like this :
A---pickup1---B C---pickup2---D E---pickup3----F
So that means that the positive end of coil 1 is named A, the negative end of coil A is named B, etc.
Output is connected to A. Ground is connected to F.
The switches :
Switch 1 Pole\Throw 1 2 3 1 N+ A E C 2 N- B F D 3 M+ C A E 4 M- D B F 5 B+ E C A 6 B- F D B
Switch 2 Pole\Throw 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 B F F C C F F C 2 C A E A A 3 D F F F E F E 4 E A
So if I am correct, this gives the 17 pickup combinations in only 21 switching combinations, without coils hanging from hot. I have not proof-read it very thoroughly. I believe those switches are available from retailers by the way, although fitting inside an actual strat-like guitar is not certain.
I hope what I am trying to achieve is clear and I'd love to hear what you think ! Is that idea flawed ? Has it been done before ? Sorry that I do not know how to draw schematics.
Alexis
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Post by newey on Dec 1, 2017 15:58:59 GMT -5
alexis:
Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!
I am sorry I had to move your post, as it didn't belong in the "Design Modules" section.
While I haven't had the chance to go through your reasoning on this, your method seems sound in principle. However, I question whether you can truly find such switches, and I am doubtful of fitment into a Strat, as you mentioned.
A 6P3T switch (AFAIK) exists only as a rotary switch- and the poles on such a switch will likely be stacked 6 deep, making it unlikely to fit the depth of a Strat cavity. I'm unaware of any 4P7T switch, althouugh I suppose a rotary could be so configured. There are certain rotary switch designs where extra layers can be added to achieve all sorts of custom configurations.
The cost of switches is also a consideration. The only rotaries (again, AFAIK)that might have 6 poles and still fit into a guitar are sealed mil-spec versions that can run $50-$70 a pop. Two such switches would be worth more than some guitars I own . . .
As far as images go, if there are specific ones that have gone missing due to Photobucket's shenanigans, please advise which ones you want to see and we can perhaps resurrect them.
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Post by Yogi B on Dec 2, 2017 4:13:26 GMT -5
Interesting idea, I've thought of trying to achieve the same in the past although with the more available 4-position and 5-position switches. Using a combination of a 3-way and 7-way switch certainly makes more fundamental sense. For the benefit of others, here is a truth table of this wiring: Switches | Output |
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Switch 2 | Switch 1 |
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1 | 1 | N | 2 | M | 3 | B | 2 | 1 | M + N | 2 | B + M | 3 | B + N | 3 | 1 | M x N | 2 | B x M | 3 | N x B | 4 | 1 | (B + M) x N | 2 | (B + N) x M | 3 | (M + N) x B | 5 | 1 | (B x M) + N | 2 | (B x N) + M | 3 | (M x N) + B | 6 | 1 | B + M + N | 2 | 3 | 7 | 1 | B x M x N | 2 | 3 |
N.B. the somewhat peculiar ordering of the 2-coil parallel and series selections (positions 2 and 3 on switch 2): this is a side effect of A being permanently tied to the output. I'm not sure this issue is one that can be resolved. However if possible, and whilst still not ideal, perhaps a it may be more intuitive to have those selections mirror those from positions 4 and 5 instead?
A 6P3T switch (AFAIK) exists only as a rotary switch- and the poles on such a switch will likely be stacked 6 deep, making it unlikely to fit the depth of a Strat cavity. I'm fairly certain that 4P3T rotary switches with only a single gang/wafer are relatively common, so I wouldn't be too surprised to find a 6P3T stacked only two deep.
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alexis
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Post by alexis on Dec 2, 2017 10:02:52 GMT -5
Thank you newey and yogi. About the wiring order in positions two and three of SW2 : this made me realize there was an error in my original post in the switch two table : pole 1 throw 3 should read C, not E. I have edited it. With this, the selection order in mode SS and mode PP is the same, and I think intuitive : position 1 of switch 1 brings N and M, position 2 brings M and B, position 3 brings B and N. Btw, you can arrange the 7 modes of switch 2 in whichever order you want, just change the throws in the table accordingly. If I were ever to implement it, I would go for the order I chose by default in my first post. As for switch availability / cost / size : it seems to me that they are listed at about 20 euros, probably slightly more in USD, minimal quantity 1, but not in stock. www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Grayhill/71B30-02-3-03N/www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Grayhill/71B30-04-1-07N/The 6P3T is only stacked two deep. The 4P7T is stacked 4 deep and this is probably the biggest problem. But I'd be willing to install one horizontally into a cheap strat copy, and drill the underside of the guitar to access it Just kidding !
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Post by JohnH on Dec 3, 2017 16:11:09 GMT -5
I like these threads too, mainly as puzzles. But its fun to try to make them into a design with potential for practical reality.
Just bear in mind that some of those 17 can sound very similar. But that's no reason not to try them, particularly in a not-too-expensive test-bed guitar.
So the idea presented here, if im understanding, is to have a 6-pole 3-position switch to 'spin the coils', bringing one of them into prime position, and presenting the six coil wires to the next switch. Always one can go to hot and one to ground, leaving 4 that need switching. You have a 4 pole 7 position switch to do that, setting up the 7 structures.
That 7 position is the practical problem due to its 4-layer configuration (but congrats on finding it at all!). If only there were just 6 settings needed, it would be a much more workable 2-layer switch.
So, how about getting one of those 7 structures in a different way? The obvious one is single-coil mode. A simple dpdt could take the prime coil from any of the other 6 settings and deliver it as a single. This would also give some useful options for quick moves from simple single to a preset more complex tone using just this extra switch. It could be a toggle or a push-pull.
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Post by reTrEaD on Dec 4, 2017 8:34:19 GMT -5
The obvious one is single-coil mode. A simple dpdt could take the prime coil from any of the other 6 settings and deliver it as a single. This would also give some useful options for quick moves from simple single to a preset more complex tone using just this extra switch. It could be a toggle or a push-pull. I'm really not fond of rotary switches as pickup selectors on guitars other than testbeds for auditioning combinations. But the path you've suggested does make sense. The three-position switch then becomes the pickup selector in the 'single' mode. And of course a two-deck 4P6T switch rather than the four deck 4P7T could actually fit inside a guitar. A large chicken head knob or flatted pointer knob rather than a round knob for each of the two rotary switches would also make this a bit more usable.
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Post by blademaster2 on Dec 19, 2017 13:58:24 GMT -5
When building my third guitar many years ago I found a 6-position, 4-pole rotary switch and I removed one of the poles to give me a 3-pole switch (this also made it shorter so it would fit into the guitar cavity). This was used to select the configuration of the bridge pickup - which was implemented using two back-to-back single coil pups, but could also be a coil-tapped humbucker. All but one of the rotary settings (#3) has been useful on its own as if it were a single pickup, and the output is then combined with the neck pickup, which is also a single coil pup, to make all six of them useful.
Rotary Switch Position Description for Bridge pickup : 1 Series In Phase 2 Parallel / In Phase
3 Parallel / Out of Phase
4 Single coil #2
5 Single coil #1
6 Reverse phase single coil #1
With this combined with and the neck pup I get at least 12 different sounds. I still love the variety and I do not mind the rotary operation at all.
J-1 Electric Guitar rotary switch design and connections to pickup coils, designed by R. Gillett in 1984. Both pickups were installed back to back within a single pickup cover (note that magnetic pole reversal and corresponding polarity assignment for humbucking operation is essential to achieve low noise in series mode).
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alexis
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Post by alexis on Oct 12, 2018 15:09:36 GMT -5
I am coming back to this thread because I wanted to let you know that I have found switches that should fit inside a guitar and realise the scheme : a rotary 6P3T (easy to come by on ebay) and a slide 4P7T, MUCH harder to find. Pictures below :
And from the front it should look like this :
So when I ever get around to wiring it, I will post again. By the way, the tone and volume pots are push pull for 2 phase options, so with this setup you can get all imaginable strat pickup combinations with an almost stock-like appearance.
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 14, 2019 14:49:10 GMT -5
Did you ever finish wiring this?
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Post by frets on Nov 17, 2019 17:39:00 GMT -5
Alexis, here is a diagram that may be a consideration for your goal. I built it and can attest to its ease with regard to build and use. It is very similar to one of John’s, but I believe it has a few more combinations.Not sure on that one. Anyway, it may be an alternative.
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Post by burgercrisis on Nov 18, 2019 3:14:21 GMT -5
I found this can be built with two slide switches. 6p3t4p7tThis could be a good mod to try in place of the 15-sound thing I was going to do with a 4PDT and a 4P5T rotary... but having only slides for my master pickup selector does sound a little sweet, I gotta say, and I can't find a 4P5T slide switch.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 18, 2019 14:39:46 GMT -5
I found this can be built with two slide switches. 6p3t4p7tThis could be a good mod to try in place of the 15-sound thing I was going to do with a 4PDT and a 4P5T rotary... but having only slides for my master pickup selector does sound a little sweet, I gotta say, and I can't find a 4P5T slide switch. You do know that the first switch is meant for printed circuit boards, yes? There are no mounting holes that you'd ordinarily expect when used in guitars, thus there is no way to mount it directly to the scratchplate (that's Strayan for pickguard).
While I see that there are samples available, the General Info paragraphs indicate that they'lll cost you a bit of moolah. Plus shipping and handling, etc. Yes, it says "Free Sample Available" in the Specifications chart, but ask before you depend on this, or you might be in for a surprise of the uwanted variety.
And finally, I don't see any pinout charts for either switch. Lacking that, I'd be hesitant to assume anything about how they would operate in anything I designed.
Just being cautious, that's all.
HTH
sumgai
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alexis
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Post by alexis on May 2, 2020 9:33:33 GMT -5
Did you ever finish wiring this? So, I'm posting again after a while away. Sorry for the late answer. In short: no, I gave up as I decided that this scheme will never work in real life unless someone produces and sells a 4p7t that is convenient to use in a guitar. The 4p7t's I got were from an aliexpress wholesale supplier who provided them as free samples, but 1. the straight pins instead of lugs and 2. the fact that the actuator is too fat and too short to be used with a strat pickguard - meant that it's not worth pursuing. But anyway there are also good reasons: - I also decided that the 3x6 design I posted in another thread is simply better, especially since it can look stock with a fender-type 4p3T instead of the 4PDT on on on; - I designed and implemented another swithching system that looks stock and also preserves the 5 way original strat layout. More on that later.
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alexis
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Post by alexis on Aug 27, 2020 15:09:39 GMT -5
This is a new version of this idea. We keep the 6P3T, but instead of using the 7P4T, we use two readily available DPDT On On On switches : And here is a video of me testing it : By the way, I discovered something interesting while building this mod : i frist settled on a rotary 6P3T, but I later found out that I could modify 2 existing, commercially available 3 way lever switches to work as one 6P3T switch (technical details : I used one double-wafered 4P3T and one single wafered 4P3T. Then I swapped one of the 2P3T wafer of the double-wafered switch with the 4P3T wafer of the single-wafered one). Alexis
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