Volume drop issue with S1 Switching SSS Stratocaster

[stratdeluxe65]

Hello Forum!

I had a SSS strat with the S1 switching as shown in the attached wiring diagram made for me and after installing it positions 2 and 4 seemed to be out of phase (there was a huge volume drop going from any single pickup to these combo positions).  

So I switched around the 2 conductors coming from the middle pickup and it fixed the volume drop only in position 2.  The volume still drops in position 4.  This is without the s1 switch engaged.

I was wondering if anyone can suggest what I should look at next to diagnose and fix the problem?

Thanks!

Attachments:

[sumgai]

sd65,

Hi, and welcome to The NutzHouse!

First question, what pickups are installed here?

Second question, are the pups adjusted for proper height below the strings?

Third question, do all five combinations sound OK when S1 is down?

I don't have time right now to check your diagram closely (it's 2:00am), but someone will probably beat me to it tomorrow morning.  Look for answers, and  more questions, soon.

HTH

sumgai

[reTrEaD]

Interesting problem. I'm also a bit short on time right now and won't be able to vet that drawing. But it looks clean and professional. Who drew it?

You mentioned that before the latest fix, the volume drop was huge in 2 and 4. Is it still huge in 4 or just minor?

That makes five questions so far.

I'll post this so all who are logged in can see that image directly:

[stratdeluxe65]

Hey guys thanks a lot for the responses, to answer your questions:

1. Pickups are passive single coils with staggered pole pieces and 2 conductor cloth covered wiring. They are basically Hendrix 1969 style strat pickups. The middle and neck and from an ebay seller and the bridge pickup is I believe a 1969 fender custom shop pickup.

2: Yes, pickups are at proper height.

3: No, but thinking about it now I'm not sure if the wiring diagram I attached is the one that was used for this guitar. According to this article (http://www.deluxeguitar.com/207/the-fender-american-deluxe-stratocaster-s-1-switching-system/) there are at least 2 different ways Fender used to wire this setup, and the ones listed in this article are very different in the combos they create.  Unfortunately the door to the building my studio is in is broken and I can't get in until tommorow - but I will plug the guitar in then and go through the sounds when the switch is engaged to get a more detailed idea of what is going on!

4: Actually, I'm not sure who drew this diagram, I found it through a google image search, and think it is the one that was used, but will confirm tomorrow.

5: The volume drop is still huge in position 4.

[reTrEaD]

Jan 14, 2018 18:27:17 GMT -5 stratdeluxe65 said:

5: The volume drop is still huge in position 4.

Suggests maybe there are still two pickups out of phase with each other in that position.

Jan 14, 2018 18:27:17 GMT -5 stratdeluxe65 said:

but thinking about it now I'm not sure if the wiring diagram I attached is the one that was used for this guitar. According to this article (http://www.deluxeguitar.com/207/the-fender-american-deluxe-stratocaster-s-1-switching-system/) there are at least 2 different ways Fender used to wire this setup, and the ones listed in this article are very different in the combos they create.  

Let's find out for sure before trying to debug farther.    I was starting to wonder if you accidentally switched the two wires around on the Neck pickup instead of the Middle pickup.  But that would make the #3 position very weak if you're using the attached diagram.

Jan 14, 2018 18:27:17 GMT -5 stratdeluxe65 said:

4: Actually, I'm not sure who drew this diagram, I found it through a google image search, and think it is the one that was used, but will confirm tomorrow.

Try locating it again through another search and post a link to whatever site it came from.
That guy has skills, at least for drawing .

[Deleted]

JohnH IIRC had written an article about identifying and verifying out of phase pups. Try to search for that.

[Yogi B]

Jan 14, 2018 19:36:25 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

4: Actually, I'm not sure who drew this diagram, I found it through a google image search, and think it is the one that was used, but will confirm tomorrow.

Try locating it again through another search and post a link to whatever site it came from.
That guy has skills, at least for drawing.

It's one of Phostenix's, which could originally be found here: sites.google.com/site/phostenixwiringdiagrams/strats/strat-x2#nashville-x2t

Unfortunately the diagram itself can no longer be viewed in situ (though this time it's Dropbox that are to blame), but it is/was the one in question -- of course, assuming that was actually the basis of how the thing is wired (point 3).

That particular diagram itself looks not to be at fault.

[reTrEaD]

Jan 15, 2018 10:13:01 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

That particular diagram itself looks not to be at fault.

Thanks for looking that over. I've had too many things to juggle lately. You're a peach.

So do you tend to suspect this drawing isn't the way his guitar is wired. I tend to believe he still has an out of phase issue but changing the wires around on the Middle pickup doesn't track with the result. In fact, I can't see flipping the phase on the Bridge or Neck tracking with the result.

Might be something else, but my money is on wrong diagram. JMO

Phostenix

I think I'll try to contact him. I'd like to know what program and templates he's using for his drawings. They look sharp, eh?

[Yogi B]

Jan 15, 2018 10:26:55 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

changing the wires around on the Middle pickup doesn't track with the result. In fact, I can't see flipping the phase on the Bridge or Neck tracking with the result.

Might be something else, but my money is on wrong diagram.

I would tend to agree, though there's always the potential of something going awry between diagram and soldering iron.

I think I'll try to contact him. I'd like to know what program and templates he's using for his drawings. They look sharp, eh?

They're a set of Viso shapes created by a member over at TDPRI, available here: sites.google.com/site/guitarstencilsproject/

Plus a few created/tweaked by Phostenix himself that are available at the bottom of his homepage.

On this note, I've slowly been tweaking/fixing/simplifying those templates myself, the two main things being: splitting the templates into smaller chunks e.g. moving humbuckers, single coils, and bass pickups to their own libraries; plus making the shapes more dynamic to reduce clutter, e.g. replacing the 35 various versions of potentiometers present in the standard library to 3, though I think I could theoretically roll those in to a single shape.

[reTrEaD]

I reckon we've guessed as much as we should up to this point. stratdeluxe65 will probably be back within a few days with info on exactly which diagram he used to wire his guitar. We can move forward from there.

Jan 15, 2018 11:11:46 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

They're a set of Viso shapes created by a member over at TDPRI, available here: sites.google.com/site/guitarstencilsproject/

Plus a few created/tweaked by Phostenix himself that are available at the bottom of his homepage.

On this note, I've slowly been tweaking/fixing/simplifying those templates myself, the two main things being: splitting the templates into smaller chunks e.g. moving humbuckers, single coils, and bass pickups to their own libraries; plus making the shapes more dynamic to reduce clutter, e.g. replacing the 35 various versions of potentiometers present in the standard library to 3, though I think I could theoretically roll those in to a single shape.

Would you mind starting a new discussion regarding templates and drawing software? I'd like to break that part of our discussion into it's own thread. Name it whatever you like to begin with. We can discuss the scope and reach of the thread. It might get moved to design modules but start it in guitar wiring if you like.

Let me know there, what your recommendation for drawing software is. Free is always better though.

I'll be offline soon. Gotta do some babysitting today.

[stratdeluxe65]

Hi, thanks for all the discussion!

Got back into the building today and here is what I can add:

I'm not sure exactly what website I found that diagram from because I downloaded it to my computer several months back.  I do remember I found it through a google image search, and there seems to be at least one website that is hosting the diagram now.

Yes, I am sure that I swapped the leads on the middle pickup only.

With the S1 switch down, this is what happens:

Position 1: Working correctly with a big fat tone of the bridge and middle pickup in series
.
Postions 2-5 are all weak and out of phase.

The only position that does not produce a volume drop compared to the S1 switch up is position 4. It is very very slightly louder than without the switch pressed down, but still weak and out of phase.

To clarify, I did not wire this pick-guard. I sent my pickups into one of the big shops on Ebay that sells prewired pick-guards and this is what they sent me back.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, because they actually did two for me, the other pick-guard I ordered was the "two volume strat plus" design from this forum as seen here: (http://guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3157/strat-volume-controls-sss-hss), and they sent me back the pick-guard wired as the "Two volume Strat."  Pretty disappointed with that one as I really wanted to try that design, and should have just done it myself considering the money and time wasted now. Not to say that their is anything wrong with the "Two Volume Strat", just that I was really getting excited about the tonal variations with these advanced wiring jobs.

Thanks for everyone's interest. What should my next move be? Should I post photos of the pick-guard itself? 

[newey]

What should my next move be? Should I post photos of the pick-guard itself?

It wouldn't hurt to do so, but I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times we've been able to solve a wiring problem based on nothing more than a gut-shot photograph.

I think ReTrEaD is on the right track. What you're describing sounds like a phasing issue, the confounding thing is that the middle pickup is typically the one that's different, but what you're reporting doesn't make sense if that were the only problem. Some testing will probably be necessary.

Understand that, if one of us had the guitar in our hot medium-sized hands (nowadays, one should not accuse someone of possessing "little hands" . . .), diagnosis might be easier. It's devilishly difficult a'web.

So, it would probably be best if you, first of all, ascertained what coils are in fact active in the various switch positions, as well as the phasing thereof, using the "screwdriver pull off test". The following are required reading:

guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/4938/testing-phase-screwdriver-pull-test
guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3186/discerning-strat-type-resistances

Report back your results from the "pull-off test", and we'll see if we need to delve further into it.

[sumgai]

Guys,

You all will recall that I asked what kind of pickups are we looking at, and sd65 responded that they are not all of known origin.  That throws a lot of water on the fire, yes?

---

sd,

Be aware that your pups may not all be oriented to respond in the same way, which is why we're asking you to do the tests in the above-linked threads.  Usually a "backwards" pup can have its leads swapped to make everything sound good, hopefully that will be the case for you.  But while this idea is usually true for parallel combos, series combos can be more difficult to straighten out.

I suspect that regardless of the wiring diagram, you have at least one pickup wired correctly according to the picture, but the pickup itself is actually backwards from the diagram - meaning that what the diagram calls 'hot' isn't 'hot'.  Swapping leads on one pup might be all that's needed, but if it's a series combo that sounds bad, then perhaps two pickups will need their leads swapped.

HTH

sumgai

[stratdeluxe65]

Here are the results of the tests:

Screwdriver pull off test - Bridge and Middle pickup jump UP, Neck pickup jumps DOWN.

Ohms test:

With switch not engaged: Position 1 being Bridge position

1 5.1 - jumps when moving either tone control but only from 5.187 to 5.174
2 2.7 - no movement 
3 5.7 - jumps when moving either tone control but only from 5.718 to 5.702   
4 2.8 - no movement
5 5.6 - no movement

With S1 Switch engaged:

1 10.8  - no movement
2 2.7   - jumps when moving either tone very very slightly from 2.714 to 2.711
3 8.3   -no movement
4 1.8   - no movement
5 11.2 - no movement 


This is pretty confusing to me because even though as I originally reported swapping leads on the middle pickup brought position 2 back to life, and it does not sound weak now, it is only reading 2.7 ohms.  With the switch up everything sounds good, or not noticeably wrong, except position 4.

With the S1 switch engaged every position sounds very weak except position 1.

[reTrEaD]

Newey set you on a good course of action to get some basic information.
I don't know which diagram this was wired according to, but it isn't the one you posted.
The resistance in position 3 with S-1 up, tells me there is only one pickup being used.

Jan 16, 2018 22:10:46 GMT -5 stratdeluxe65 said:

Here are the results of the tests:

Screwdriver pull off test - Bridge and Middle pickup jump UP, Neck pickup jumps DOWN.

Your Bridge and Middle pickups are out of phase with your Neck.
Or your Neck is out of phase with the Bridge and Middle.
All depends on your point of view.
Tomayto, tomahto.

Most pickups will generate a negative pulse when the screwdriver is pulled off.
But the important thing as that all three fishes are swimming in the same direction






With switch not engaged: Position 1 being Bridge position

1 5.1 - One pickup
2 2.7 - Two pickups in parallel
3 5.7 - One pickup  
4 2.8 - Two pickups in parallel
5 5.6 - One pickup

With S1 Switch engaged:

1 10.8  - Two pickups in series
2 2.7   - Two pickups in parallel
3 8.3   - Two pickups in parallel, in series with the third
4 1.8   - Three pickups in parallel
5 11.2 - Two pickups in series

[newey]

RT is right, swapping the leads around on the neck pickup will cure to problem at position 4 with the S1 down, but there's a separate problem with S1 up.

IF(This is a big "if") your custom Strat is of the type with a rear cavity, so that you can get in there without destringing the thing and removing the pickguard, then I'd say go ahaed and swap the neck pickups wiring around, and we'll cogitate on the other problem.

If, OTOH, the pickguard must be removed for any wiring changes, let's see if we can figure out the second problem as well before you undertake the major disassembly required.

[stratdeluxe65]

It is a standard top rout stratocaster.  However, I have already taken it apart and put it back together a few times so it is not a problem to do this a time or two more.  

Should I go ahead and swap the leads on the neck pickup or not yet?  I just emailed the shop that wired this asking for the wiring diagram they used, or to at least to send me all the versions of the American Deluxe S1 strat wiring diagrams they have, if they can not remember what was used. Hoping they get back to me with some insight into this problem.

[reTrEaD]

Should I go ahead and swap the leads on the neck pickup or not yet?

Not yet.
Let's try to figure out how we got where we are.
And make sure we get to where we want to go.


You were certain you flipped the phase on the Middle. But to get from the original to the current problem it looks like you actually flipped the phase on the Bridge. Or maybe the Bridge pickup is wired where the Middle should be and the Middle is wired where the Bridge should be.

Do the pull-off test, reading the output from the guitar.
Confirm which pickup is active in each of positions 1, 3, and 5

[sumgai]

Ahem... ah-ah-hem.

Please do recall that singular instance (DC) resistance readings do not indicate phasing/polarity of pickups in combination with each other. Two pups in series will have the exact same resistance whether they are in phase or not.

I'm not even checking the diagram, due to questions of applicability.  I'll wait for the shop's response to sd65.

sumgai

[reTrEaD]

Please do recall that singular instance (DC) resistance readings do not indicate phasing/polarity of pickups in combination with each other. Two pups in series will have the exact same resistance whether they are in phase or not.

We used resistance readings to determine number of pickups used in each combination. We used the pull-off test to determine phase relationships.







But your statement is true. Using resistance readings to determine phasing would be like using a rectal thermometer to determine pulse rate. Okay, bad example. Taking the resistance measurement won't affect the phasing.

[sumgai]

Jan 18, 2018 9:23:10 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

We used resistance readings to determine number of pickups used in each combination. We used the pull-off test to determine phase relationships. 

Apparently, I glossed over the need to determine how many pickups were in a combination... my mistake.

But your statement is true. Using resistance readings to determine phasing would be like using a rectal thermometer to determine pulse rate. Okay, bad example. Taking the resistance measurement won't affect the phasing.

No, no, your example was primo! I needed a good excuse to clean the laptop's screen, and you provided a nice one, thanks!

sumgai

[stratdeluxe65]

Hey guys, sorry for the delay.

I was waiting to hear back from the shop - I asked for any other S1 strat wiring diagrams they have, and the only thing they sent me is for a setup that uses only one volume and one tone control.  My pickguard has two tone controls - I'll post the diagram here anyway in case anyone is interested in it.

Regarding flipping the wires that I already did -  it was the middle pickup because it is the only pickup which uses one yellow cloth conductor.

The shop did make this suggestion: "The one thing I noticed, when you said that there are phasing issues, is that the bridge pickup doesn’t match your other pickups exactly. It seems like the bridge from the set that you sent was DOA so we used a CS 69 from Fender. Fender pickups are often out of phase with other brands of pickups.
 
So, try flipping the bridge wires."

As far as the screw driver test to show which pickups are active - I suppose that in this case I am just looking to see if it jumps at all when pulling off to show which pickup is working in each switch position? 

Attachments:

[reTrEaD]

Jan 23, 2018 13:45:12 GMT -5 stratdeluxe65 said:

As far as the screw driver test to show which pickups are active - I suppose that in this case I am just looking to see if it jumps at all when pulling off to show which pickup is working in each switch position? 

That would tell you which pickups are working in each position but you should take it one step farther.

Make a list, ten rows long.
Positions 1-5 with S-1 released, and position 1-5 with S-1 depressed.

In each row, indicate the Pickup(s) that produce a pulse AND which direction the pulse was.
That will tell you not only which pickups are being used in each of the ten positions,
It will also tell you the polarity of the pickup by position.
It's likely that for a given pickup you'll see its polarity constant regardless of position.
But a wiring error might have it in-phase in some positions and out-of-phase in others.