5-way switch wiring

[tadfury]

Hi everybody
I know this will sound like a really dumb question, but i'm a bit unsure how to wire a 5-way switch for these positions:

1 - Bridge
2 - Bridge & Middle
3 - Middle
4 - Bridge - Neck
5 - Neck

pickup combo is:
Bridge - Humbucker
Middle - p-90
Neck - Single

3 Volumes

also should i get the p-90 RWRP? sorry guys, i'm still learning the ropes and i'd really appreciate any help! hehe

Ella

[UnklMickey]

Ella,

YOU CANT!


well to be perfectly honest, you can, but not with a standard fender strat type switch.

if you have that switch, it has 2 sides, with 4 lugs on each side.

each side has one "output" and 3 lugs that each pickup connects to.

in positions 2 and 4, it connects both pickups of the "neighbors".

so you have (in sequence)

1 - A
2 - A&B
3 - B
4 - B&C
5 - C


the closest you could come with that switch would be to have:


1 - Middle
2 - Bridge & Middle
3 - Bridge
4 - Bridge - Neck
5 - Neck


it would be better if one (and only one) of the single and P-90 were RWRP




do you know what kind of switch you have?


unk

[tadfury]

hi unk!
I just have a standard fender 5-way switch. I think your suggestion would be great, i don't mind which position each pickup is selected on the switch, I would just rather have a bridge + neck combo than a middle and neck combo.
do you know a link to a diagram that has this so i can copy it? thanks so much!

[UnklMickey]

there are both a schematic and a pictorial on the original guitarnuts site. (John Atchley's site).

this will take you right to it:



just exchange the wires from the bridge and middle pickups and you're done.

some things i should mention:

the normal 1 volume, 2 tone configuration on a strat is set-up so when in bridge only, neither tone control is used. so when you make your change, moving just the two pickup wires, you will still have position 1 (now the middle pickup only) with no tone control. if that isn't good for you, and you need some help changing that, just let me know.

also, you might want to investigate some of the other mods there that still use the standard switch. you might find something you like.



BTW, about these remarks:

tadfury said:

...I know this will sound like a really dumb question,...

... sorry guys, i'm still learning the ropes and i'd really appreciate any help! hehe

Ella

we don't think simple questions from newbies are dumb. in fact, it's refreshing to be able to deal with simpler things occasionally.

and in time, you will have learned the ropes and will be helping the next group of newbies.



unk

[johan]

tadfury said:

i'm a bit unsure how to wire a 5-way switch for these positions:

1 - Bridge
2 - Bridge & Middle
3 - Middle
4 - Bridge - Neck
5 - Neck

pickup combo is:
Bridge - Humbucker
Middle - p-90
Neck - Single

[glow=red,2,300]3 Volumes[/glow]
(...)
Ella

I suppose that if you want to go with 3 volumes, the 5way selector becomes superfluous. Then you could mix any standard parallel combo and have access to the 2 missing combo's

Neck + Bridge
Neck + Mid + Bridge

Another way would be with a push pull pot to simply add the neck.

BTW, Unk always starts off by saying it's impossible, to conclude that it can be done.

He fooled me a couple of times too

J

[UnklMickey]

Yikes!


good catch on that 3 volume spec., Johan.

my brain went right past that, for some reason it just registered as 3 potentiometers, and then made the leap to standard strat config.



Ella,

we'll have to talk more about how you want the volumes to function.

Aaron has some ideas that might be interesting without a switch.

and if you want to make those volumes non-interactive, JohnH can help with bypass capacitor locations and values.


unk

[jhng]

Just a quick comment.

You may find it useful to "coil split" the Bridge humbucker in positions 2 and 4. Which is pretty easily done using the second pole of a standard Fender fiveway.

This means that in those positions you effectively have two single coils in parallel rather than a Humbucker in parallel with a single coil. Popular wisdom dictates that this is "better", but you be the judge!

Incidentally, I believe this is how the classic HSH 80's style superstrats are traditionally wired.

Hastings

[tadfury]

hi guys,
wow thanks for all the comments! I just want the 3 volume pots to act seperately for each pickup. hehe, so i guess i don't need the switch after all because i can just activate each pickup by turning up the volume..am i right?
so where would i put the wire coming from each pot? just solder it straight to the output jack?
also i think it would be better to have the humbucker split when using it with the other coils..i can use a push/pull pot to do that?
thanks again guys!

Ella

[CheshireCat]

tadfury said:

hi guys,
wow thanks for all the comments! I just want the 3 volume pots to act seperately for each pickup. hehe, so i guess i don't need the switch after all because i can just activate each pickup by turning up the volume..am i right?
so where would i put the wire coming from each pot? just solder it straight to the output jack?
also i think it would be better to have the humbucker split when using it with the other coils..i can use a push/pull pot to do that?
thanks again guys!

Ella

Okay, a few things.

First, you don't want to forego the selector switch in favor of doing some "vol up selecting". Here's why: if you wanted to jump from one selection to another, you'd have upwards of three different volumen controls to have to work, which, between songs isn't much of an issue, but midsong, or, more appropriately, midflight, that could be invovled.

IOW, you won't be slamming it into lead right before the solo on the downstroke, let's say, because instead of slamming the side of the selector switch with the side of your hand on the downbeat of a strum, you'll have to stop strumming, palm the pick, and then articulately turn the three volume knobs to get the effect. If you get good at rolling the knobs with your pinky, well, great, but even then that's not terribly expediant. A simple selector switch will make that all very simple.

Second, the idea of switching the bridge and the mid pickups on the switch is quite clever. I like that idea. Here's another one: use a SuperSwitch, which takes the place of your stock strat switch, but is 4 poles instead of 2, and has discrete, dedicated terminals for each pole, vs these three wide lugs that buddy up with their neighboring lug.

With that, you can get virtually any combo you can think of, and then some. Add an S-1 Switch of other multipole toggle, the other possibilities go thru the roof. I was actually toying with combining a SuperSwitch with a multipole rotary switch, somewhat akin to Deaf Eddie's Chromacaster switch. That would be a possible 60 combos . . . but I'm not nearly that adventurous . . . at least not at this point in time . . . but I digress.

That switch will give you what you need.

Now, as far as RWRP pickups, you already have one . . . the RWRP coil on the humbucker. You could, in theory, split the humbucker so that the RWRP coil is the one activated. That should, in theory, create a substantial humbucker effect.

What do you guys think so far?

Chesh

[jhng]

tadfury said:

also i think it would be better to have the humbucker split when using it with the other coils..i can use a push/pull pot to do that?

No need. You can do it all on the 5-way switch so that the humbucker is automatically split when you are in positions 2 or 4. have a look at the "lonestar strat" wiring on GN1.

Also, I second Chesh's views on just using the Volume controls for pup selection. Would get annoying very quickly! The knobs on the guitar are (in my view) best saved for fairly subtle sound variation while leaving the 5-way for more drastic tone changes e.g. from one combo to another.

Hastings

[UnklMickey]

johan said:

...BTW, Unk always starts off by saying it's impossible, to conclude that it can be done. ...

i guess a sane person would have said something like:

you can...

but instead of the normal sequence on the switch, it would look like...




but that assumes a different level of sanity.

_______________________________________________________________________________

anyway,


ELLA,

we've thrown a few different ideas your way, so you have a few things to think about.

using throws 1 and 2 and/or 2 and 3, of the now unused tone side of the 5-way, to shunt half of the bridge HB, in positions 2 and 4 seems like an interesting way to go. if you keep track of which coils compliment the others, you can maintain hum-canceling.

that all assumes you have at least a 3 wire connection to the HB. and can split the HB.

the other issue is the 3 volumes and the 5-way switch.

one option there is to wire the volumes "backwards" and before the switch. that will make it so if any volume is at zero, it won't kill the sound from a combination.

if you do go that way, the way JohnH connected the treble bleed caps in that J.P. mod on your other thread is appropriate here. (double the value for the caps?)



BTW:

if you are going to use the 5-way with the sequence i suggested, it doesn't matter whether or not one either of the bridge and neck pups are RWRP. you won't be using them together anyway.


so? too many choices?

[tadfury]

guys! you are so great! there are some really good ideas here. thankyou ;D i think i will go for the swapping leads on the switch and using it to split the humbucker idea. it's sounds like the best thing for me. i agree the vol up selecting could be very annoying after a while! hehe
now all i have to do is wire the damn thing...wheres that soldering iron?

[RandomHero]

Heya Ella, sounds like you want some of the same things on your guitar as I do. There's a link to the originial GuitarNuts site, at the top of all our forums, if you check that place out and look under Wiring Mods, you'll find a simple little procedure to add a "Neck On" switch. All it does is shorts the neck pup's hot lead directly from the switch terminal to the volume pot when active, so you can get:

Neck
Neck - Middle
Middle
Middle - Bridge
Bridge

AND

Neck - Bridge
Neck - Middle - Bridge

I usually add this switch in the form of a push-pull pot on my master volume, and then I coil-split any humbuckers in my ax with another push-pull on the tone.

[UnklMickey]

admin said:

...you'll find a simple little procedure to add a "Neck On" switch....I usually add this switch in the form of a push-pull pot on my master volume, and then I coil-split any humbuckers in my ax with another push-pull on the tone.

another good way to do it. gives lots more than 5 choices.

in that case there would be times when the neck and middle would be used together. so having one of them RWRP would be useful.

[CheshireCat]

admin said:

Heya Ella, sounds like you want some of the same things on your guitar as I do. There's a link to the originial GuitarNuts site, at the top of all our forums, if you check that place out and look under Wiring Mods, you'll find a simple little procedure to add a "Neck On" switch. All it does is shorts the neck pup's hot lead directly from the switch terminal to the volume pot when active, so you can get:

Neck
Neck - Middle
Middle
Middle - Bridge
Bridge

AND

Neck - Bridge
Neck - Middle - Bridge

I usually add this switch in the form of a push-pull pot on my master volume, and then I coil-split any humbuckers in my ax with another push-pull on the tone.

Actually, if you're going to add another switch to the 5-way selector, might as well go all out and do the mod I just worked out from Mike R's work, which I'd post but I don't know how to yet. I can never get the IMG thing to work.

Chesh

[CheshireCat]

cheshirecat said:

admin said:

Heya Ella, sounds like you want some of the same things on your guitar as I do. There's a link to the originial GuitarNuts site, at the top of all our forums, if you check that place out and look under Wiring Mods, you'll find a simple little procedure to add a "Neck On" switch. All it does is shorts the neck pup's hot lead directly from the switch terminal to the volume pot when active, so you can get:

Neck
Neck - Middle
Middle
Middle - Bridge
Bridge

AND

Neck - Bridge
Neck - Middle - Bridge

I usually add this switch in the form of a push-pull pot on my master volume, and then I coil-split any humbuckers in my ax with another push-pull on the tone.

Actually, if you're going to add another switch to the 5-way selector, might as well go all out and do the mod I just worked out from Mike R's work, which I'd post but I don't know how to yet. I can never get the IMG thing to work.

Chesh

Let me qualify this.

I thought about doing a neck on or bridge on mod, but then I realized that if I was going to commit to a new control, then it really didn't matter if it was a SPST toggle for one pickup, or if it was a DPDT, or even a 4PDT. I still had to rout for it and work it in, and it was still going to be a project. So, to that end, I said, go for it.

If you are going to commit to crossing that line in the sand, then I say go all the way up to the next line . . . don't chose to hold back after you've already crossed that line.

Now, I've come full circle to what I consider to be the best mod I can do on many levels, using a SuperSwitch and a Fender S-1 Switch (tho a 4PDT toggle will work just as well). I can get all the switching combos for a H/S/H configuration that I need with just two simple controls.

Incidentally, it doesn't include splitting or phase-inverting because that would grossly complicate the issue and invaribly leave something out, so I use three slider switches for that. That keeps it easy and intuitive. If I want phase-inverting, I flip the switch. If I want either 'bucker split, I flip the switch. That part didn't need to be any more complicated than it has to be. And, as it happens, it's fairly simple.

Incidentally, about the RWRP issue on the mid pickup (the P-90?) most pickups these days are humbucking so that shouldn't be an issue. You can simply just get a model that's humbucking and you should be fine.

If you're interested, I'm working on getting my schematic posted.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

cheshirecat said:

.....Incidentally, about the RWRP issue on the mid pickup (the P-90?) most pickups these days are humbucking so that shouldn't be an issue. You can simply just get a model that's humbucking and you should be fine.

If you're interested, I'm working on getting my schematic posted.

Chesh

hey Chesh,

i agree on the RWRP not being needed in this case.

but only because it won't be paired up with another single.

P-90s are single coils, so they aren't available in humbucking versions. back in the day, there was, i think a humbucking version called P-100 that had an auxilliary coil on the bottom. they also didn't sound that great.

there might be some custom winders that make a P-90 style pickup that has a second coil to do the hum-cancelling, but that's not an everyday kind of thing.


regarding your schematic, we're all looking forward to it!

it took me an awful long time to get off my butt and draw one up. but JohnH was feelin' kinda lonely out there in schematic-land all by himself. now that ChrisK and i are out there, he's happier, but i think i speak for him when i say "the more the merrier".

since different people have different priorities, when it comes to what they want in their switching and control functions, it will be great for us to have lots of choices for our members to pick from.

thanks in advance.



unk

[CheshireCat]

unklmickey said:

cheshirecat said:

.....Incidentally, about the RWRP issue on the mid pickup (the P-90?) most pickups these days are humbucking so that shouldn't be an issue. You can simply just get a model that's humbucking and you should be fine.

Chesh

P-90s are single coils, so they aren't available in humbucking versions. back in the day, there was, i think a humbucking version called P-100 that had an auxilliary coil on the bottom. they also didn't sound that great.

there might be some custom winders that make a P-90 style pickup that has a second coil to do the hum-cancelling, but that's not an everyday kind of thing.

www.seymourduncan.com/products/specializeddescr.shtml#p90stack

More later.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

cheshirecat said:

...http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/specializeddescr.shtml#p90stack

More later.

Chesh

i'm interested to see what else you have on this.

i looked that up, and noticed they don't have a "hear" available for this one like they do for their regular P-90s. i wonder if it's because it's a newer release than the regulars, or if they're not that proud of the way it sounds?

nonetheless, it is available from SD, so it is an everyday thing. i stand corrected.

unk

[CheshireCat]

unklmickey said:

cheshirecat said:

...http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/specializeddescr.shtml#p90stack

More later.

Chesh

i'm interested to see what else you have on this.

i looked that up, and noticed they don't have a "hear" available for this one like they do for their regular P-90s. i wonder if it's because it's a newer release than the regulars, or if they're not that proud of the way it sounds?

nonetheless, it is available from SD, so it is an everyday thing. i stand corrected.

unk

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single Duncan pickup that they aren't proud of, or else they wouldn't make them.

That said, getting the sound recordings together is probably a rather involved process. It's not like us where we just record a riff and attach it to a post. They have to go and do all sorts of updates to the website (no doubt one of many). They probably wait until they have enough to work with before they do them, and then they do a batch of them.

Of course, all that said, odds are, it sounds indestinguishable from a regular P-90, aside from having less hum.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

cheshirecat said:

...To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a single Duncan pickup that they aren't proud of, or else they wouldn't make them.

That said, getting the sound recordings together is probably a rather involved process. It's not like us where we just record a riff and attach it to a post. They have to go and do all sorts of updates to the website (no doubt one of many). They probably wait until they have enough to work with before they do them, and then they do a batch of them.

Of course, all that said, odds are, it sounds indestinguishable from a regular P-90, aside from having less hum.

Chesh

Chesh,

"or else they wouldn't make them" -- maybe!

we know they wouldn't make them if they couldn't sell them.

but i'm not willing to make any determination one way or the other as to whether or not that means they're proud of them.



"odds are, it sounds indistinguishable from a regular P-90"

i'll just say the numbers don't support that.

i didn't see any user comments on them at HarmonyCentral. maybe they are a fairly new product.

i did take a snapshot of the data supplied by SD.

this is a comparison between the stack and their vintage P-90

they both have alnico 5 magnets. they both have moderate output. unlike the hot and custom which use ceramic magnets and have a higher output.


since the resonant peak is somewhat shifted, and the recommended eq numbers are different, i would suspect that Erik Johnson would have no trouble at all telling them apart .:lol:.

as to whether you or i could tell the difference, the numbers say yes, but i'd say the jury is still out.

even if they do sound different, they might still sound OK, but i haven't compared them so i won't recommend them. i'll just acknowledge that they are worth investigating.

[ChrisK]

I'm actually quite fond of the P-90 Stack from SD. A few years ago, MF demonstrated the bad judgement of offering the neck version in creme for $20. I did buy a few!

It doesn't sound the same as the vintage P-90. However, wire the coils in parallel and it brightens/sweetens up a tad. I like it with just one coil (top) also. The P-90 structure will sound like a single coil (P-90) when split, unlike a normal humbucker.

[CheshireCat]

unklmickey said:

["or else they wouldn't make them" -- maybe!

we know they wouldn't make them if they couldn't sell them.

Well, that depends on how you define "pride". If it's a custom job and they don't particular care for the results themselves but the customer is absolutely chaffed with it, then I'm sure they're happy for the customer. I would imagine that they would take pride in the craftsmanship and having met the customer's needs.

But, since they offer it as a model, I doubt they would go to all the trouble, time, and expense, to bring said pickup to market if they didn't believe in it as a product. And if they weren't "proud" of it, why even list it on the website?

unklmickey said:

[but i'm not willing to make any determination one way or the other as to whether or not that means they're proud of them.

Well, as mentioned, define "pride".

unklmickey said:

["odds are, it sounds indistinguishable from a regular P-90"

i'll just say the numbers don't support that.

i didn't see any user comments on them at HarmonyCentral. maybe they are a fairly new product.

What numbers are those? Reviews from Harmony Central? The resonant peak readings from that snapshot?

Perhaps indistinguishable isn't the right word, but more to the point, does it sound like a P-90 or not? If someone played one, would you stop in your tracks and say "what a minute, something doesn't add up . . . is that really a P-90?" I think that would be a bit much. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that if it's meant to be a P-90, that it sounds more like a P-90 than not, and that it sounds good, and you enjoy playing with it in your guitar.

unklmickey said:

i did take a snapshot of the data supplied by SD.

this is a comparison between the stack and their vintage P-90

they both have alnico 5 magnets. they both have moderate output. unlike the hot and custom which use ceramic magnets and have a higher output.

since the resonant peak is somewhat shifted, and the recommended eq numbers are different, i would suspect that Erik Johnson would have no trouble at all telling them apart .:lol:.

as to whether you or i could tell the difference, the numbers say yes, but i'd say the jury is still out.

even if they do sound different, they might still sound OK, but i haven't compared them so i won't recommend them. i'll just acknowledge that they are worth investigating.

Well, at the risk of sacrilege, I think that's all abit over the top, or overkill. That can give you a decent idea of what you're dealing with, but unless you're an expert in pickup design and what not, only your experience of playing it will tell you.

I mean, where does the point of dimishing returns hammer down? How much investigation do you need to do to judge between these two versions of a P-90 before decide that the humcanceling properties are worth it, and how long will it take to sufficiently road test each one in all the different applications to determine if it will do the job.

The simple reality is that either you like it or you don't, and humcanceling is either important to you or it's not, and you are either will to spend the money on RWRP or you're not if it turns out that you wanted one over the other.

Chesh

[UnklMickey]

hi Chesh,

i thought the P-90 part of this discussion came to a nice conclusion with Chris's post. but since you still have some questions, i guess we'll continue on.

You are focused on my use of "proud", and have suggested that i define "pride". rather than risk this digressing into one of those Bill Clinton "that all depends on what the definition of is, is...." sort of things, i'll elaborate on the context in which i used it, since apparently that was not clear.

when i said:
"i wonder if it's because it's a newer release than the regulars, or if they're not that proud of the way it sounds?"

i both asked a question, and posed a couple of possible answers. (BTW: since Chris's post indicated he had bought his a few years ago, that mostly negates the first of the possibilities i offered. ) that was meant in a relative context. i did, and still do consider it entirely possible the reason the STK-P1 does not have a "hear" (Audio Samples) feature in it's listing, is that hearing that pickup might not improve sales or perhaps actually hamper sales, compared to other pickups that they apparently do feel that hearing them will improve sales. hence: "i wonder if it's because ... they're not that proud of the way it sounds?"

your suggestion that they are waiting to batch them, is certainly plausible, although somewhat less so, now that a few years have passed since their release. i don't totally discount that as a possibility, or the possibility that there may be other reason(s).

as to why they would list it on their website; they are a business, and one of the primary purposes of a business is to make money. one possible reason to list them, is that they would make money by selling them. the ability to sell a product doesn't necessarily require that the product be as good as others in the market-place.



you wanted to know, when i said:

"i'll just say the numbers don't support that."

whether the numbers that i referred to were reviews from harmony central, or the resonant peak reading.

i was referring to both the frequency of the resonant peak and SD's recommendation of equalization settings.

i had considered saying that those numbers contradict the likelihood of them sounding indistinguishable from a regular P-90, but i felt it would be more polite to say : "numbers don't support that."


you mentioned sacrilege, oh, my, me, that's funny!

yes, those snapshots were a bit, over-the-top. they are not useful in doing a quantitative analysis of exactly what the pickups might sound like. but they are useful, in the sense that they indicated that these would not sound indistinguishable from a regular P-90. you have since moved from "indistinguishable" to: "that it sounds more like a P-90 than not". a far more defensible position.

as far as the point of diminishing returns, and whether hum-canceling is worth it;
that seems to vary on the basis of individual preference and application. for some it's "hum-canceling takes preference, and take what you get in terms of sound. for others, it's: "never sacrifice getting a particular sound for hum-canceling." for most it probably lies somewhere in the middle. get hum-canceling whenever it doesn't cause too much of a deviation from the particular target.

the ability of pickup manufacturers to get convincing single-coil sounds in a hum-bucking configuration still has much room for improvement. there apparently has been some progress on some new strat replacement pickups that reportedly are remarkably good. some of the new designs, like kinman point toward a promising future in that arena. right now, they are a bit pricey for most.


when one looks at the number of words that you and i have spent on debating these things, and compare it to the two little paragraphs that Chris wrote, which speak volumes, well i for one, have to acknowledge his efficiency.

from his post, one can readily see, that if someone thought they would get a vintage P-90 sound , using the P-90 stack in hum-canceling mode, would lead to a bit of a surprise....something different.
yet, if one were to use it in single coil mode, it does a good job of providing that sound. (but not hum-canceling).
and using the appropriate switching would allow one to choose which mode they want to use at any particular time.

so Chesh, how 'bout we take Chris over to the Coffee Shop and buy him a cup, i think he's earned it! .......................+1 Chris.

unk