possible to get series wiring using a Gibson 3-way switch ?

[Ro_S]

Say one has a Gibson style 3-way toggle switch, and two single coil pickups - or a humbucker with a four wire output. 

Is it possible to configure the wiring of such a switch that the two coils can be combined in series ?     

I ask cos ideally I'd like to wire two single coil pickups together using such a switch and be able to achieve the following switch position configurations: coil #1 only; coil #2 only; and, both coils in series (rather than the normal parallel).  Is that possible?   And, if so, how please?

(Or, alternatively, can such a switch be utilised to at least get: both coils in series, and one of the coil alone?)

I realise that one would normally use a mini toggle switch on/on/on (?)  for such a purpose, but I'm asking explicitly about a Gibson style 3-way toggle switch


thanks

p.s. By Gibson style switch, I merely mean a generic thing such as either of those pictured below.
   

[newey]

Either of the two toggles you illustrate are SPDT (single-pole, double throw) "On-On-On" switches. AFAIK, it is not possible to have such a switch do series between 2 pickups at position 2.

(Or, alternatively, can such a switch be utilised to at least get: both coils in series, and one of the coil alone?)

Yes, that is possible. You will have redundancy, however, in that the single pickup will be "on" on both ends of the switch.

However, there are other options. First, a toggle switch of the same size/shape as the Gibson toggle can be had as a DPDT switch. With two poles, this becomes a pretty trivial wiring exercise.

Or, you can also find Gibson-style 3-way toggles available as a SPDT ON-OFF-ON switch. That type of switch can be wired to do exactly as you want.

Note that this is not a new idea. Two pickups wired in series was the way several brands of guitar were made back in the '60's, the best known example being Teisco. However, Teisco used two switches for the wiring, an "on-off" switch for each pickup. When both switches were "on", the pickups were in series.

[Yogi B]

Mar 19, 2018 7:57:58 GMT -5 Ro_S said:

Is it possible to configure the wiring of such a switch...

In the case of the open contact style switches (any, though it will work better with proper Switchcraft ones) there's another question we can ask:

Is it possible to configure the wiring of such a switch?

Since we can dismantle and reassemble this type of switch, we can make changes to its switching function. Specifically (to make an on-off-on switch) one needs to swap the inner and outer contacts. In order to ensure the contacts only touch when they should, they may additionally require a slight amount of bending. Though I couldn't comment on any affect this has on the long term reliability of the switch, I suspect it would only be minor.

Mar 19, 2018 9:01:52 GMT -5 newey said:

Note that this is not a new idea. Two pickups wired in series was the way several brands of guitar were made back in the '60's, the best known example being Teisco.

My first thought was of Danelectro.

[Ro_S]

Mar 19, 2018 12:11:10 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Oh, so it is possible then?

So how would one have to wire it then, please?

And would need to bend one of the central lugs slightly so they don't contact each other any more?

[Ro_S]

Mar 19, 2018 9:01:52 GMT -5 newey said:

Note that this is not a new idea. Two pickups wired in series was the way several brands of guitar were made back in the '60's, the best known example being Teisco. However, Teisco used two switches for the wiring, an "on-off" switch for each pickup. When both switches were "on", the pickups were in series.

I was thinking of Danelectro, too.  I didn't know Teisco did it also.    I think I read once that Danelectro did it that way purely cos that's the type of switch Nate Daniel, who was very frugal in his approach, happened to buy in a bulk lot.

[reTrEaD]

Mar 19, 2018 12:11:10 GMT -5 Yogi B said:

Since we can dismantle and reassemble this type of switch, we can make changes to its switching function. Specifically (to make an on-off-on switch) one needs to swap the inner and outer contacts. In order to ensure the contacts only touch when they should, they may additionally require a slight amount of bending. Though I couldn't comment on any affect this has on the long term reliability of the switch, I suspect it would only be minor.

For about 98% of all LP selector switches, this isn't practical.

The inner leaves don't move.

The outer leaves are flexed outward by the toggle
AND there is a portion at the end of each of the outer leaves which causes the toggle to remain in the one-pickup position.

If you change the 'stack' this changes the geometry.
That part can be overcome by additional insulating wafers.
What can't be overcome is the fact that most of the switches are built with contacts on just one side of each leaf.

So that leaves you with two choices.

1 - Serious reshaping of the end of the moveable leaves so that the bent area which interfaces with the toggle is bent in the opposite direction.  This generally ends in tears before bedtime. I mangled about five switches this way before I got one to work . . . most of the time.

2 - Find a switch such as the one specifically made for the 3-pickup Gibsons which has one leaf with contacts on both sides. Buy two switches because you'll need two of these double sided leaves.

These switches are more expensive and you'll use two to make one and end up with a lot of unused pieces. Still, it's cheaper than buying several less expensive switches and mangling most of them

tl;dr
Makes far more sense to buy a switch that was meant to be on-off-on.

[pj]

I could be hallucinating but Im sure I've done this.

Wire the pickups in series, the hot of the upper pickup is wired to the output jack, and to one of the switch lugs. The cold end of the other pickup is grounded, as is the other switch wafer. You then attach the centre tap of the two pickups to the commoned switch wafers/output.

One way shorts the top pickup leaving the bottom pickup at the output, the other way grounds the bottom of the top pickup leaving purely is output at the jack.

[pj]

And by output jack I meant volume pot. Unless you're really ruthless and don't believe in adjusting nothin lol.

Sorry... Long day in hospital brains a little off kilter.

Edit... Now I've thought about it mustn't have been that kind of switch due to the nature of both wafers being closed when in the middle. I'll go back to sleep now... Apologies!

[JohnH]

You can imagine a Gibson-like switch where this might work but I can believe that it might not be feasible in practice with real switches.

But a Gibson toggle switch is one of the nicest simple guitar controls IMO

You could wire a standard Gibson switch to get just two sounds, being one pickup or both pickups in series. The middle setting would be a repeat of the 'one' pickup.

I actually have this, engaged with an extra slide switch set into the circular rear switch cover on my LP. One position does this, the other reverts the toggle to normal LP mode with 3 sounds.

2 humbuckers and an LP -modular wiring design

[newey]

For those interested, here is this scheme for a SPDT On-Off-On switch.




EDIT: Just realized that the toggle switch as shown would be backwards,in that toggle lever pointed towards neck would give bridge, and vice versa. So, just switch around the orange and black wires going to output and ground, respectively.

[Ro_S]

newey - what does the above give one in each of the 3 positions?

[Ro_S]

newey - And how would the wiring look like on a normal Gibson style SPDT "On-On-On" switch, please, in order to get series and single coil and redundancy in the third position of the same coil?

thanks.

[newey]

From top to bottom, as shown (which, as I noted, is backwards from the way you would want it on the guitar):

1) (i.e., switch pointed towards neck P/U) Bridge pickup only, neck shorted.

2) N x B

3) Neck only, bridge shorted.

Again, flip the connections around so that the lever position matches the pickup to be selected.

[Ro_S]

Mar 19, 2018 9:01:52 GMT -5 newey said:

there are other options. First, a toggle switch of the same size/shape as the Gibson toggle can be had as a DPDT switch. With two poles, this becomes a pretty trivial wiring exercise.

if one was to use a DTDP on/off/on switch in order to get series in the middle position, would the wiring in my diagram below be correct?

[newey]

Looks fine. Subject to what I said about switch orientation.

[Yogi B]

Mar 19, 2018 15:42:16 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

If you change the 'stack' this changes the geometry. That part can be overcome by additional insulating wafers.

You could do that, but it isn't too necessary.

What can't be overcome is the fact that most of the switches are built with contacts on just one side of each leaf.

Leaf / leaves that's the word I couldn't remember before.

Anyway, what I should have written is:

(any, though it will work better with proper full size Switchcraft ones)

which as far as I recall do have contacts on both sides of the flexed leaves. I can't remember about the (normally inner) static leaves, but it doesn't matter since they can be flipped 180°. Plus for the other switches I'm not overly concerned about the actual intended contacts touching.

tl;dr Makes far more sense to buy a switch that was meant to be on-off-on.

Well, yes.

[newey]

newey - And how would the wiring look like on a normal Gibson style SPDT "On-On-On" switch, please, in order to get series and single coil and redundancy in the third position of the same coil?

thanks

Like this:



If you want the bridge P/u to be the single one instead of the neck, the wiring just "flips", i.e., neck black gets permanently grounded, bridge "hot" gets permanently connected to output, and the other wires are changed accordingly.

If you are going to actually do this in a guitar, these SPDT switches are available as 2-position On-On switches, which could eliminate the redundant position.

[Ro_S]

newey - 

thanks.  this is useful for a scenario where i have an existing switch on the guitar and i dont want to alter the appearance of the guitar.

[Jaga]

Sorry for bumping this thread, but that's pretty interesting wiring. While I understand what's going on in the middle position using SPDT On-Off-On switch, I'm a bit lost on extreme positions.

How bad is it when non-used pickup is shorted? Is it worse than hanging coils?

Sorry for silly questions...

[newey]

How bad is it when non-used pickup is shorted? Is it worse than hanging coils?

It's not "worse" than hanging coils, because hanging coils aren't necessarily bad. We try to avoid them (if possible) because, in a theoretical noisy electrical environment, they might generate some noise. In other words, in the quiet of you practice room you probably wouldn't notice, but we can't guarantee it might not be an issue if you were playing in a bar with lots of neon beer signs.

What you really want to ask is whether shorting a coil is worse than disconnecting both ends of the coil. We've debated this back and forth, and the consensus was that it shouldn't matter much one way or the other.

[Jaga]

newey,

Thanks for the reply. Found also that thread where "shunting coils" were discussed: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/1121/shunting-coils-beware-tone-sucker