Neck materials question: PSL?

[ohrats]

Hey,

I've been wondering about the potential of the stiffer/stronger engineered wood lumbers for electric guitar necks.  I know some luthiers have been getting interesting results making necks from extremely stiff, solid core materials - e.g. solid aluminum necks.  Something like solid aluminum has the disadvantage of being hard to work with - at least using woodworking equipment.  

I wonder whether the something like (PSL) parallel strand lumber might allow for very stiff, solid core (no truss rod) neck construction while being much easier to work with. (Or perhaps LVL?)

Thoughts?

[newey]

ohrats-

Hello and Welcome to Gnutz2!

Back in the 1970's.Travis Bean pioneered the aluminum neck guitar. Given that the company only last a short time, I guess the aluminum neck wasn't so popular.


I don't know what "parallel strand lumber" is. Is this similar to OSB?

As far as alternative neck materials are concerned, Raintree has been making carbon-fiber composite set-neck acoustics for some time. These have their fans.

[sumgai]

starho,


Hi, and to The NutzHouse!



Not knowing where you're going with all of this interest, I'll turn you on to another neck material, carbon graphite. The company linked below has a long history of making necks, and other instrument parts, so you might want to give them some consideration.

Moses Carbon Graphite, Inc.

I once played a borrowed bass that had a neck from these guys. Trust me, it was so good that I was strongly tempted to "put it under protective custody before someone could come along and steal it!"  Sigh, missed opportunity, that was.

Do tell, what are you planning here?

sumgai

[reTrEaD]

I don't know but I suspect engineered lumber products won't have the necessary stiffness to allow neck construction without adjustable truss rods. There's an awful lot of torque on a neck due to the string tension, especially with heavier gauge strings. Plenty of distance and very little cross-sectional area.

Just guess, though.

[JohnH]

Engineered Timber products come in many forms and we use them in construction. Most of them are based around taking thin strips or planks of wood and gluing them together to make larger sections. This allows all irregularities and natural discontinuities to be removed, creating a material with the highest properties of best of the parent wood. Also, more of the tree can be used, adding economy and systainability.

But guitar necks are already highly selected hardwood with good uniform characteristics. An engineered product from the same species is unlikely to surpass it. It may reduce cost in cheaper models though. It could also allow some different species to be used eg laminated bamboo which might actually be very good.

[ohrats]

reTrEaD and JohnH:

Super helpful! I wasn't clear on the fact that these engineered wood products typically don't perform better than a top grade piece of the parent wood - unless we need dimensions that don't allow for the latter (which is not an issue for guitar necks.) I take it that processes like densification would be another story, but AFAIK those are still in early stages of development.

So outside of cost reduction benefits at larger scales, it doesn't sound too promising. That makes sense. (Ok there's also the interesting look - IMO - of PSL specifically. But traditional timbers do just fine on that score too.


newey and sumgai : I was curious about the prospects of the materials in general. I might also decide to build something from scratch for myself at some point in the not too distant future, so I'm entertaining myself with that thought too.

[sumgai]

ohrats,



Fair enough, self-entertainment is never a bad thing, especially if it involves copious quantities of power tool usage!

Do keep us posted on your projects, there's little we like better than seeing someone color outside of the lines.






sumgai

[Deleted]

I have "philosophising" a bit around this and concluded to the following :

The ppl still keen on guitars WANT IT VINTAGE no matter what...
Those ppl have SO much tech in their lives, a little more high tech on the guitar dept wont add much.

[ohrats]

Mar 27, 2018 13:46:10 GMT -5 sumgai said:

ohrats,



Fair enough, self-entertainment is never a bad thing, especially if it involves copious quantities of power tool usage!

Do keep us posted on your projects, there's little we like better than seeing someone color outside of the lines.






sumgai

I sure will!

[ohrats]

JohnH Having done more reading with the above posts in mind, bamboo does seem especially intriguing. For one thing it has some (small) track record in this industry. But more importantly, once adequately dried and processed it has impressive mechanical properties and stability at a low cost. Not sure if it’s to the point where a non-reinforced neck would be wise, but perhaps it can be stabilized enough with solid carbon fiber rods.

[cynical1]

So, let me play the guy that just saw this and chimes in.

Anyone who remembers the 70's remembers hybrid aluminum necks. Anyone who owned one many have less fonder recollections. While the theory looked good on paper, wood and aluminum are two widely different materials that react to temperature and humidity and the ravages of age in significantly different ways. Pretty much every one of these necks walked out to some degree...and if you encountered any separation between the wood and aluminum your didn't even have a good piece of firewood.

The secret to a good neck comes from more than merely the harness. Madrone is just has hard as maple...but give it a few weeks and it'll corkscrew all to Hell. The trick comes from stable "snug to tight" grained hardwoods. Mahogany is about the most stable, but there's no flies on maple either. Exotic hardwoods tend to be oily, so even wiping with acetone is required prior to gluing.

Using 5-7 pieces of wood, alternating grain\species and routing for a truss rod will be the most rigid, stable and reliable design.

Feel free to experiment. It's no voltage.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[sumgai]

cyn,


So, what's yer thots on hickory as neck wood?


I've got some sweetgum wood around here, made an endtable out of it. Harder than steel, couldn't get it to soak up any stain whatsoever. Nice looking grain pattern, not super-heavy, might be good for a neck, who knows.


sumgai

[cynical1]

Hickory comes in several different varieties. Some are more broader in their grain while others have a nice brown color to the heart wood. Anf you're right, hickory is a very hard wood. Harder than sugar maple and any variety of oak you can find depending on which variety you choose.

This is actually part of the problem using hickory as a neck wood...it's hard as Hell. This eats your tooling, can cause chips or tearout when routing or cuttings if your tooling is dull or you get too aggressive in your cuts. It files nice and sands out well...but there will be an increase in perspiration due to the time it takes to hand shape. The end grain is typically unspectacular.

As with all mass produced wooden goods, time, tooling expense and finishing considerations are always calculated in far ahead of any "tonewood" mantras. Maple, ash, mahogoany, alder, poplar and until recently, rosewood, are all used in guitars because they were cheap, readily available and consistent in their graining and working properties. The exotics are more the provenance of boutique builders. Do they sound better? Only if you want them to...

If I were to use hickory I think I'd sandwich it in a 5 piece neck with maple and/or mahogany.

Happy Trails

Cynical One

[straylight]

There's a big problem using aluminium: It expands significantly with temperature. Going from cold backstage to out under the lights gives you tuning problems. Also you have to go with a perfectly flat neck neck profile as using a truss rod to get a very slight bow won't work, again due to thermal expantion characteristics.