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Post by ozboomer on May 6, 2018 5:02:04 GMT -5
'lo all... Something a little different, maybe... There are a few tunes where a 'sound-on-sound' technique is used to create a unique, rhythmic sound. For those of us "of a certain age"(!), there are a couple of examples we (might/are likely) to be familiar with:-
Bohemian Rhapsody, Queen, 1975... The 'cascading notes' that overlap has a technical name that I can't remember... but it's a device that's been used since the 'early 20th century' (and probably earlier). There's also another Queen track that I can't remember (AGAIN) where Brian May plays like a triplet scale... and as he works his way down the scale, the notes overlap, in a real sound-on-sound -type thing.
One of These Days, Pink Floyd, 1971... where the technique for producing the sound is explained well on Wikipedia: One of These Days -- the article also mentions the track, Sheep, which has a 'ping-pong', stereo-spaced, tremolo-type electric piano sort of sound.
Tornado, The Jiants, 1959... An old, (swamp-) rockabilly-style tune, where what sounds like a square-wave tremolo provides the rhythmic sound element. NOTE: There are a few versions of this tune about nowadays, the most recent of which came to light thanks to a "tel-ly-vizsh-un AD-ver-TIZE-ment for a certain orto-MO-bYle" currently running on the TV down here in Aussie, the music track being Tornado, by Hillbilly Moon Explosion.
So, I'm curious about any other examples folks might be able to share where the 'tricky' but fun sound is done by clever use of machinery... or by some quirk of physics. Fanx! John |
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Post by Yogi B on May 6, 2018 6:53:22 GMT -5
There's also another Queen track that I can't remember (AGAIN) where Brian May plays like a triplet scale... and as he works his way down the scale, the notes overlap, in a real sound-on-sound -type thing. My guess is you're thinking of Brighton Rock: Though there's probably other examples. The Prophet's Song also comes to mind, but there it's Freddie's vocals.
In the absence of machinery, be sure to have a couple of willing friends: |
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Post by reTrEaD on May 6, 2018 10:35:10 GMT -5
The 'cascading notes' that overlap has a technical name that I can't remember... Arpeggio? |
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Post by sumgai on May 6, 2018 11:20:47 GMT -5
Arpeggio refers to the sounding-out of individual notes of a chord, sustaining the notes for a brief time before letting them subside. Certainly the sustain time can be shorter or longer, but the most famous example of an arpeggio is none other than HOTRS - House Of The Rising Sun, as performed by The Animals.
As it happens, HOTRS is one of my favorite tunes, and as it further happens, I've gone off the deep end in collection various versions. So far, I'm well north of 900!!! But admittedly, some of them are near-duplicates by a given artist doing it again (and again) over time. The Animals for sure, but Nina Simone probably takes the cake for doing it both live and in the studio on a large number of albums, over her career. So not 900 different artists, just different interpretations. And for just about all of them, this does not include the innumerable "me too wannabe's" found on YouTube.
sumgai
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Post by reTrEaD on May 6, 2018 12:05:17 GMT -5
In the absence of machinery, be sure to have a couple of willing friends: That was well worth the time to watch. |
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Post by ozboomer on May 6, 2018 15:39:36 GMT -5
The 'cascading notes' that overlap has a technical name that I can't remember... Arpeggio? Our dear sumgai explained about the arpeggio ... but the sound I'm thinking of is more about a single "voice" harmonizing with itself "horizontally" over time (the "name" I can't remember) instead of having multiple voices harmonizing with each other at the one time (a "chord"). I don't think it's called "the bell effect"... hmm... Still searching... |
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Post by ashcatlt on May 8, 2018 13:03:30 GMT -5
I wonder of the word you're looking for is "rondo", also known as a "round". Like we did in grade school music class with like "Three blind mice".  If you're looking for music that uses delay as an integral part of the rhythmic/harmonic element - where it sounds complex but actually isn't until the delay does its thing - the first thing that comes to my mind is U2. Like, that's the entire basis of the Edge's sound. I've done quite a lot of that kind of thing in the past. My default tone included a dotted quarter delay for years. I've gotten away from that lately, but it still comes up here and there. This might be further from what you're talking about, but there's a song on my last album where I recorded each note of a chord being hit exactly once on both a guitar and bass. Kind of like an arpeggio when I played it, but then I cut and moved to individual tracks so that they lined up as one whack of the chord. Then I reversed them all and applied a different rhythmic delay to each. Each repeated forever at its own prime number of beats. This would normally not converge back for like billions of beats, but I rendered them out as long as I wanted the song to be and then reversed them all again. Now each hit sounds normal, but the rhythm "falls together", which is why it's named... "Falling Together" - Lorenzo's TractorIt's maybe not anything anybody else would call music, but I'm really happy with how it turned out. |
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Post by ozboomer on May 9, 2018 2:56:59 GMT -5
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Post by sumgai on May 9, 2018 10:03:30 GMT -5
Oh, you mean something like this:
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Post by ozboomer on May 9, 2018 17:36:38 GMT -5
Oh, you mean something like this: [...video...] No.. The closest thing is Yogi B's suggestion, viz:- It's like a "round"... but it's more the individual voices (human or [mono] instrumental) coincide in time and thereby form chords... and the tune moves forward "harmonized". It's quite a different thing to "straight" harmony... as it's the same 'phrase' shifted in time by one note -- it's almost like a "fugue" form... but the fugue is a phrase displaced in time but NOT overlapping. TO something more familiar... this is NOT the sound:- Methinks I'll have to experiment a bit more practically to see what I can work out... |
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Post by ozboomer on May 17, 2018 8:41:44 GMT -5
Oooo, a most excellent ('dude') explanation about "The Prophet Song", including how Queen recorded it.. and explanation of the 'repeating' sounds I've been chasing... how Brian used "Drop D" tuning to get a certain 'growly' sound from THE guitar... and even some examples of how they did it live, with Freddie improvising with the delay on-stage (unsure, but it sorta looks like it might've been the Rio concert?). There is so much useful info in this video I fell over tonight (the insert starts at the explanation of the 'sound-on-sound' overlapping sounds)...
'tis more than worthwhile to watch the video from the start.
*Glorious music* as always ...
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Post by sumgai on May 17, 2018 12:59:14 GMT -5
ozzy,
'Dude'* - do you seriously mean to tell me that you've been trying all this time to describe a delay action that will give you, more or less, a sound-on-sound effect that's offset in time.... harmonizing optional? Or have I missed something here.....
(I had a whole diatribe all written out, but then I decided that I didn't want to set a bad example in front of the other kids, so I deleted it.)
sumgai
* Are you ready for the next excellent adventure?  |
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Post by ozboomer on May 17, 2018 16:49:38 GMT -5
'Dude'* - do you seriously mean to tell me that you've been trying all this time to describe a delay action that will give you, more or less, a sound-on-sound effect that's offset in time.... harmonizing optional? Or have I missed something here..... ( viewing for a second is all that's required  ) Acshually, with harmonzing required and synchronized... Our dear sumgai explained about the arpeggio ... but the sound I'm thinking of is more about a single "voice" harmonizing with itself "horizontally" over time (the "name" I can't remember) instead of having multiple voices harmonizing with each other at the one time (a "chord"). So, I think I described it clearly enough there, didn't I!? ...*fret*... |
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Post by sumgai on May 17, 2018 22:06:00 GMT -5
Sorry, but I'm on the road for another day, and this one-time internet connection is dirt slow. I may not be able to get in again, so I'll keep this short, if not sweet.
In essence, yes, you are pining away for sound-on-sound, with a delay of some predetermined amount... I think you said 'one beat', but that's probably subject to various factors. And if you wanna harmonize, be my guest. Obviously it's necessary if you're going to build a chord, but I have to tell ya, if you sound out each note of that chord, one beat at a time as you play over the previously sounded notes, then you have imitated an arpeggio, and reTrEaD wins the prize for best guess, per your most recent description. However, you keep going on about harmonizing and building chords, but that's not what Brian May does, nor what he describes. He's playing phrases (licks, riffs, whatever) and repeating them with a delay of one or more beats between those repeats. That's a round, and thus Yogi gets the kewpie doll.
Mixing the two together, that's an entirely different musical term, and I'll be durned if I can think of what it might be called. 
But I admit to being stymied here.... For the life of me, I can't figure out why you haven't fired up a looper of some kind. The video you posted showed Freddie doing his repeat thing just one time per phrase, more or less, but I can envision places where it would be nice to have it repeat for perhaps 4 measures, or even longer. For instance, you don't want the effect during the verses, but you do want it during the bridge (for you whippersnappers, that's where the solo goes). The possibilites are nearly endless.
Cheers, mate!
sumgai
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Post by ashcatlt on May 18, 2018 12:26:53 GMT -5
That's a round, and thus Yogi gets the kewpie doll. Now wait a minute! I just did a search and I was the first person to actually type the word "round" in this thread. Where's my frickin doll?!?  Tails across transitions is one of the hardest parts about trying to do this with pedals. Even switching chords can create some sloppy weird things if you're not careful. Really, though, the delay part is easy. It's writing and playing a part that actually works with that delay that makes the difference. These things work when they do because you have thought about how what you're playing now is going to work with what you're going to play along with it on the next repeat. Basic arpeggios are kind of usually safe and easy, but anything more complex and interesting starts to take some real composition/arrangement thinking. It's not any kind of cheating. Like any other technique, it requires thought and skill to pull it off well. |
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Post by ozboomer on Jun 3, 2018 8:43:55 GMT -5
...and to put an end-point on this thread... for now... :-
Thank you, folks...
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Post by ashcatlt on Jul 26, 2018 11:37:45 GMT -5
Then there's a whole different world in actual harmonizer type effects, and if you combine them with the delay, things can go about anywhere you want. Then again, if one happened to have a midi pickup... |
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