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Post by studiostriver on Feb 20, 2019 21:39:19 GMT -5
Hi guys! Its been really a long time since I was here. Before 3/4 years you made me one scheme for pickups that I used at the time. So if I`m not too much pain the butt here I would ask you humbly to help me making new pickup scheme.
I used various pickups in the past and decided to switch back to Di Marzio`s again since I felt I wanted to make return to the root sound and basswood just works great in basswood body guitars. So for know I`m not sure which pickup set I will use,but its 100% sure they will be Di Marzio`s.
Guitar is Music Man JP7 and currently it has custom Fokin pickups(from Russia) and push pull pots (single coil), plus additional three way switch (series /parallel/out of phase).
So if anyone is willing to help me making another custom scheme for DiMarzio pickups that will include 3way pickup selection, push/pull (which I plan to switch to push/push), and additional three way switch I will explain further which combination I planning put, It will mean a great deal to me,since I have zero skills in wiring and making schemes,planning to send them to my guitar luthier to do it for me.
Kind regards to all, Dado.
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Post by newey on Feb 20, 2019 22:56:25 GMT -5
Happy to help, once we "zero in" on exactly what combos you want. I read your post above to mean that you plan on changing the existing wiring.
Currently, it has "Fokin" pickups, to be replaced by DiMarzios of some type. May I assume that both the existing pups and the new ones going in are humbucker types?
Is this one P/P pot for each pickup to be individually cut to single coil operation? Or, are we cutting both HBs with one P/P switch?
Please verify the type of switch this is. I envision a 4-pole switch to do both series/parallel as well as OOP. Is this series OOP or parallel OOP? Also, how are the individual pickups selected, is there another switch for Neck/Both/Bridge?
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 21, 2019 0:21:37 GMT -5
Hi newey. It feels great knowing you guys gonna help me once more. ;)I`m happy. To answer on some basic questions:pickups will be 2 humbuckers.I have 3way switch that change pickups Bridge/Both/Neck Currently on my guitar volume pot works as bridge and tone for neck splitting. Additional switch is three way switch that was actually original JP7 selector switch,and I replace it with switchcraft one which is bit larger and have better feels when changing pickups. I`ll take pictures of wiring,switches and scheme tomorrow when I wake up. :)Also I can provide previous scheme we used if needed. Currently pickups are wired so that additional switch when its on 1st position Bridge is in series, Both (Parallel),Neck series, 2nd position of add switch were both pickups are in series, and OOP was both in series as much I can recollect. The thing is that I want to make complete new scheme know and I`m not 100% sure how I want it to be combined,so I`m afraid I will need some suggestions how to put things most logically. I will tomorrow write down in next message how I imagine scheme to work and we will see if there is smarter solution to this. I`m opened to all suggestions. See ya soon. Kind regards, Dado.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 21, 2019 11:59:36 GMT -5
Here`s the copy of current diagram. Also this is how it looks like in guitar.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 21, 2019 14:09:12 GMT -5
Here is first idea that came to my mind after some thinking is to have volume pot push/push to split both inner coils on bridge and neck,and tone pot to split both outer coils bridge and neck. I would like to get splitted sound in all 3 way pickup selector switch positions.
So to get split bridge-bridge/neck-neck, on volume on inner, on tone outer split.
Additional 3way switch I would like to switch all pickups and combinations on 1st position in series, 2nd parallel, 3rd series oop
That would be it,since I came to conclusion in previous scheme having spliting humbucker with one single coil does not sound as interesting as two different splitted coils,I found I do not use it at all.Also I didnt had parallel sound for other combination, only for boths pickups which is what I felt limiting.
I am know opened to some variation of the same idea.
For example it would be cool if I can make somehow switching inne/outer coils"smarter"but cant think of any combination so far. Maybe switch or p/p that would switch from inner to outer combination split would be maybe better idea.
Please help me on this bit,how should I make this work,and what combination should make most sense. Kind regards.
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Post by newey on Feb 21, 2019 20:44:50 GMT -5
Gee, that diagram looks vaguely familiar . . . So, what you are saying is that everything will remain the same except for the coil-cut switches, correct? Currently, one pot splits one pickup, and the other splits the second pickup, with the two coil splits selecting one N and one S coil for humcancelling. As I understand it, you now want to have one P/P split both HBs to the inner coils and the second to select both outer coils. If the coils of your HBs are laid out as I show in the diagram, you'd be selecting either both N or both S coils, and neither pairing will be hum-cancelling. But this can be solved by rotating one of your new pickups 180°. I think this could be done quite easily, but with one proviso- what happens when both these P/Ps are pulled up? The way I'm seeing it, you'd get no sound at all. But there may be a solution, let me cogitate on it awhile. Hopefully, while I'm cogitating, someone much smarter than I can post a solution. I suppose ideally, you'd have both switches "up" default to both full HBs, the same as if both were down. But I'm not sure if that can be done.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 21, 2019 21:39:59 GMT -5
Hi newey. Well that is the problem with scheme, I mean If I pp both pots volume and tone ar eup I will get no sound.That would seems stupid wiring idea then. That is why I said I need someone smarter to think better solution. If it is possible it would be cool to find way to swap coils "somehow"if not I`ll have to find better solution. "So, what you are saying is that everything will remain the same except for the coil-cut switches, correct?" Well no, additional switch will be different cause this was what it does:when its in 1st position it makes Bridge series , both parallel, neck series, and 2nd position works only for both series, and 3rd position is oop series. And I would want to have 1st position full series, 2nd full parallel (for all pickups and combination to work, not just for both pickups), and 3rd series oop which would stay the same. And of course I`m open for any suggestion changing scheme to something better that will include everything I need but in different way or exclude something that you think is unusable,if there is anyone to give me better solution to have option inner/outer coils, series,parallel,op . Hum cancelling when I switch pickups selector to both pickups would be very desirable. Greetings.
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Post by newey on Feb 21, 2019 23:08:52 GMT -5
So, currently, the 4PDT switch is as follows:
1) Bypass to three-way pickup selector. 3-way then gives N/N+Br/Br.
2) Both HBs, in series, OOP. 3-way switch bypassed.
3) Both HBs, in series, in phase. 3-way switch bypassed.
But you want:
So, you want the switch to do the same as above, but with the settings rearranged, so that:
1) Both HBs, in series, in phase. 3-way switch bypassed
2) Bypass to 3-way pickup selector
3) Both HBs, in series, OOP. 3-way switch bypassed.
In other words, we're just reordering the positions?
Leaving aside the question of the coil-cut switches, this can probably be done. But I'll need to look at it closer to be sure.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 22, 2019 10:28:33 GMT -5
So, currently, the 4PDT switch is as follows: 1) Bypass to three-way pickup selector. 3-way then gives N/N+Br/Br. 2) Both HBs, in series, OOP. 3-way switch bypassed. 3) Both HBs, in series, in phase. 3-way switch bypassed. But you want: So, you want the switch to do the same as above, but with the settings rearranged, so that: 1) Both HBs, in series, in phase. 3-way switch bypassed 2) Bypass to 3-way pickup selector 3) Both HBs, in series, OOP. 3-way switch bypassed. In other words, we're just reordering the positions? Leaving aside the question of the coil-cut switches, this can probably be done. But I'll need to look at it closer to be sure. Well that is not entirely true.Curently 4PDT switch works like this:) on 1st position,N+Br is parallel and N and Br are in series. The rest you got right. And I want something bit different.Its not place of those selection,you got me wrong. Sorry for my bad english. I want it be(if possible): 1) All pickup selection N (N+Br) Br to work in series. 2) All pickup selection N (N+Br) Br to work in parallel. So I do not want to bypass pickup selector and restrict parallel 2n position only to (N+Br). 3) stay exactly the same as it is know, series oop
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Post by JohnH on Feb 22, 2019 21:22:10 GMT -5
I've been reading this thread and I think some choices may be needed. Not everything is possible.
The switches you have do give lots of options, The amount of switching for two humbuckers is similar to the 'Jimmy Page' schemes. These have four two-pole switches, and yours is like this, with two of them combined into one 4pole switch. These do single and series wiring for each pickup, plus oop and series/parallel between pickups. But it doesn't do inner/outer choices of coils, nor parallel wiring of the coils of each pickup.
If you want the inner/outer options without dead settings, you could adapt the two push/pull switches that you have. Instead of each acting on a different pickup, one switch could cut them both to single, and the other set whether the singles are from inner or outer coils. Other switches and wiring would be unchanged.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 23, 2019 13:22:56 GMT -5
I've been reading this thread and I think some choices may be needed. Not everything is possible. The switches you have do give lots of options, The amount of switching for two humbuckers is similar to the 'Jimmy Page' schemes. These have four two-pole switches, and yours is like this, with two of them combined into one 4pole switch. These do single and series wiring for each pickup, plus oop and series/parallel between pickups. But it doesn't do inner/outer choices of coils, nor parallel wiring of the coils of each pickup. If you want the inner/outer options without dead settings, you could adapt the two push/pull switches that you have. Instead of each acting on a different pickup, one switch could cut them both to single, and the other set whether the singles are from inner or outer coils. Other switches and wiring would be unchanged. I see. Would it be smart idea to install free way switch then with 6 positions and to make different scheme from a start that will expand sound options even more? And is it possible to make it work with what I have so far? www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Components_and_Parts/Switches/Free-Way_Pickup_Switch.html
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Post by JohnH on Feb 23, 2019 15:48:08 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't know how to get all the sounds that you want, in the switch positions that you want using your parts, or other switch types. It should be possible to get the sounds, in a different arrangement. The kind of complexity required is likely to be similar to this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3778/hbd-hh-hss-daemon-mobuckerBut would need to consider if something like that would even fit within your guitar. Others may have smarter ideas. It might be worth stepping back and list the specific sounds that are most important for you. eg, a conventional basic HH guitar has the coils of each pickup always in series with each other, and with that , you get B, B+N, N. B+N is the parallel combo of the two humbuckers. So there's three tones that all HH guitars should have. What would be the next 4 specific settings that you really want, in order of importance?
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 23, 2019 20:09:25 GMT -5
To be honest, I don't know how to get all the sounds that you want, in the switch positions that you want using your parts, or other switch types. It should be possible to get the sounds, in a different arrangement. The kind of complexity required is likely to be similar to this: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3778/hbd-hh-hss-daemon-mobuckerBut would need to consider if something like that would even fit within your guitar. Others may have smarter ideas. It might be worth stepping back and list the specific sounds that are most important for you. eg, a conventional basic HH guitar has the coils of each pickup always in series with each other, and with that , you get B, B+N, N. B+N is the parallel combo of the two humbuckers. So there's three tones that all HH guitars should have. What would be the next 4 specific settings that you really want, in order of importance? To make small introduction if you do not mind please. Well this is actually my main guitar for my home studio,guitar is in A tuning (7 string guitar). Hopefully this year I planning to release my frist single that I crafted for years actually. My music has quite different music genres mixed with metal music,so I must say I`m very addicted to have different voice combinations. 1.For clean parts I`m in need for that strat famous 2/4 position tones if possible so I assume those are split inner coils in series , and I need also that lovely telecaster clean tones that runs cool to play faster lines and kind a folk/country style since I play quite a lot Celtic music.So I assume for telecaster clean tones I`m in need for parallel kind a tones with outer coil. 2.Next tone that I love is oop series since I`m lover of Brian May so much, those phasy clean tons I just adore,also for solo melodies it gives nice kind a telephone wah frequencies effect. Really hard to choose which I prefer humbucker or split, I love them both actually ,some works better with distortion, some with clean tones. 3.And last things I use is inner coil series Bridge and Neck straty tones, since I love neoclassical metal in Malmsteen style, so those I pretty much prefer, which I do not use all the time, but for some parts in the music when I need to lower dynamics I really like that open articulating string definition sound,less gainu and kind a very articulate compare to classic humbucker. So those are things I love and use dearly. And thanks for asking me cause I got bit clarification what I really want. I think I can live with what I have know only to add on volume split inner coils for all pickup,and tone split outer on I guess will solve all my needs. I cant choose individual what to split,so I will not have combination of humbucker and single coils in the same time choosing specific pickup, but instead outer and inner. Cant have both I guess. If I had to choose I will go rather to have outer coil sounds, would rather to have that all, but I`m afraid that is not possible to get. Sorry for long message.
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Post by JohnH on Feb 23, 2019 20:28:31 GMT -5
Great, that's helpful!
Would there be room for one more small dpdt toggle switch on your pickguard? If there is, then you could keep exactly what you have now but add this switch which will change the single coil modes from inner to outer coils. You could still have the push/pulls as they are to split each pickup, so then you could have humbucker plus single options, and all the others.
But, If no room, then either go with your idea of having one push/pull for inner and one for outer (don't pull them both unless you want a kill-switch 'off' setting). Or, as I suggested above, one push pull splits both pickups and the other selects whether they split to inner or outer.
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Post by newey on Feb 23, 2019 22:52:39 GMT -5
I had an "Aha" moment with that. When I mentioned above, several days ago, that pulling both P/Ps up would kill all output, I felt that there should be a way around that with the two P/Ps. But I couldn't wrap my mind around how to do it exactly- I know we've had this before, but I couldn't visualize it. Then I "saw" it in a flash with JohnH's description, just seeing it put that way, I guess.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 23, 2019 23:13:30 GMT -5
Great, that's helpful! Would there be room for one more small dpdt toggle switch on your pickguard? If there is, then you could keep exactly what you have now but add this switch which will change the single coil modes from inner to outer coils. You could still have the push/pulls as they are to split each pickup, so then you could have humbucker plus single options, and all the others. But, If no room, then either go with your idea of having one push/pull for inner and one for outer (don't pull them both unless you want a kill-switch 'off' setting). Or, as I suggested above, one push pull splits both pickups and the other selects whether they split to inner or outer. I`m afraid my pickguard resting on wood so there is no hole there like in classic strat built. So the only space is in cavity, which I investigated know ,and must say it has tiny bit space,but itwill only give me mess, cause they will stand in my way in playing reaching volume,tone pots or selector switch. Is there possibility to sacriface one position in 4PDT switch,2nd one to eb precise since I do not use in series both pickups a lot,so can we put there outer coils?
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 23, 2019 23:18:28 GMT -5
I had an "Aha" moment with that. When I mentioned above, several days ago, that pulling both P/Ps up would kill all output, I felt that there should be a way around that with the two P/Ps. But I couldn't wrap my mind around how to do it exactly- I know we've had this before, but I couldn't visualize it. Then I "saw" it in a flash with JohnH's description, just seeing it put that way, I guess. That could solve problem indeed. And It could be plan B if I cant make 2nd position on 4PDT switch switch to do the same job(which is currently connecting both pickups in series).
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Post by JohnH on Feb 23, 2019 23:35:38 GMT -5
But if you want to keep the series oop sounds, then you must keep the series wiring. Plan B seems best to me.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 24, 2019 7:39:08 GMT -5
But if you want to keep the series oop sounds, then you must keep the series wiring. Plan B seems best to me. Then we will do that way. I will only ask if its not too much to make me 2 schemes if I`m not aksing too much?One as we know agreed that we call plan B, and other with additional switch if I felt adventurous going to luthier and mnake some drastic body mods.
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Post by newey on Feb 24, 2019 9:17:14 GMT -5
Okay, here's a diagram from Plan B. It should be OK but let's get another set of eyes on it first. Note that only the wiring to the two P/P switches changes, all the rest of the wiring stays the same. Also as noted previously, rotation of one pickup 180° may be necessary to ensure that inner and outer coil pairs are hum-cancelling (The diagram assumes that this has occurred, or that inner/outer coil pairs already consist of one N and one S coil).
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Post by JohnH on Feb 24, 2019 13:56:04 GMT -5
I think that instead of the cross-over 'X' on the righthand switch, it would be better to keep each side and pickup separate, and take the connections for shunting to hot, to the hot end of the respective pickup, rather than all the way to volume pot hot. Otherwise the pickup may be forced to be on even if not selected.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 24, 2019 16:09:43 GMT -5
Oh damn,know I came to realisation that turning pickup differently is impossible in my JP7,since its full body instrument and there is only one way to connect it cause its direct mount.
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Post by newey on Feb 24, 2019 21:41:40 GMT -5
SS- That's why another set of eyes is a good idea! Here's v2.0:
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Post by Yogi B on Feb 25, 2019 5:36:12 GMT -5
I think that instead of the cross-over 'X' on the righthand switch, it would be better to keep each side and pickup separate, and take the connections for shunting to hot, to the hot end of the respective pickup, rather than all the way to volume pot hot. Otherwise the pickup may be forced to be on even if not selected. And the ground ends too, otherwise splitting would short the entirety of neck pickup when in either of the series modes. But actually, to have as many hum-cancelling positions at possible, you might not want to do that. Instead of the bridge coil cut being swapped between the hot and ground ends of that pickup, have it swapped between the net containing the upper (bridge) wire to the toggle switch (s3) and the net containing the yellow wire coming from s2. And, as usual with the auto coil swapping, one might prefer to have that happen with the neck pickup rather than the bridge, so we'd need to reverse the pickup designations accordingly.
Also, since SS indicated a wish for local parallel for each HB, why don't we go back to plan A, where pulling one P/P gives inner coils and the other gives outer coils. But, instead of attempting to achieve local parallel with the 'mode' switch (s4), we do that when both P/Ps are up?
Oh damn,know I came to realisation that turning pickup differently is impossible in my JP7,since its full body instrument and there is only one way to connect it cause its direct mount. I can't understand how, or why, this would be the case. It seems like a very odd, though not impossible, design limitation. Could you please explain further?
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Post by newey on Feb 25, 2019 6:54:14 GMT -5
Arrgh! Back to the drawing board!
I'll have to look at that more closely, not sure if I follow that.
But I was also going to ask studiostriver why rotating the pickup would be impossible. I have never encountered a problem in doing so, except that sometimes the pickup leads need to be lengthened. The pickup wires run underneath the pickup, but there's usually enough room to do so without affecting pickup height.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 25, 2019 8:29:11 GMT -5
Hi guys. Basically this guitar is made as model for John Petrucci, and pickups have certain height,its designed for Di Marzios exclusively also space there is dead tight,so if I swap pickup around I have no space where to put this cable cause benath is wood. This last pickups I bought was in design smaller,so I have to put foam to being able to lift it up. Since I returning to Di Marzios there will unfortunetelly surely be no space for cable at all.
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Post by Yogi B on Feb 25, 2019 10:06:10 GMT -5
I'll have to look at that more closely, not sure if I follow that. It's a question of scope, shunting coils via shorting the series link to the innermost conceivable place to define a direction for hot and ground leads to the same coil selection(s) regardless of the phase of the entire pickup, using the outermost (hot and ground as wired at the jack) would invert which coil is selected when coil-cut and the pickup's phase is reversed, but that would skip the consequences of some the other wiring e.g. selector switch / volume control. So it's a question of finding the the right place in the circuit, somewhere between the two extremes: after the phase switching but before the global series/parallel and pickup selection switching. Hi guys. Basically this guitar is made as model for John Petrucci, and pickups have certain height,its designed for Di Marzios exclusively also space there is dead tight,so if I swap pickup around I have no space where to put this cable cause benath is wood. Ah! I was thinking along some sort of electrical quick connect system or something, not EVH Frankenstrat style screw the pickup directly into the wood (without springs/foam/tubing). Doing some reading around, I do find it somewhat surprising that the ability to install rotated pickups wasn't considered, since early models of the JP7 had a D-Sonic bridge pickup with the bar orientated towards the bridge, while later versions which had a Crunch Lab instead were orientated the other way. Though (speculatively) depending on the age of your JP7, it could be from before that change would need to be considered, or maybe after it had been 'refined' out of the design. Edit:What would be my suggested action if one wanted to achieve hum cancelling inner or outer coil pairs but didn't want to rotate a pickup for the sake of aesthetics? Flip the magnet.
Is that any different if the restriction doesn't come from an aesthetic requirement but a physical one of the pickup cavity? No, not really.
Why didn't I equate those two situations earlier? I don't know. So there is still another way of trying to solve this potential problem.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 25, 2019 15:38:31 GMT -5
Hi guys.
I was thinking about all this situation and here are my decisions. I decided to use this current scheme, only I wish someone to make me color scheme matching one with Di Marzio pickups, and other scheme we talked about with additional switch which will have option of switching to parallel without any need of swapping pickups,magnets etc.
So when I get them both to my guitar tech/luthier I`ll consulate with himn if he is able to make space for that other switch with some modes, and I think that version with additional smaller switch makes everything works perfect. If not I`ll stick with what I have ,only to being able to give him scheme that will perfectly work for Di Marzio color scheme.
I hope I wasnt making you a lot of mess with these changing plans,and if you`ll still have nerves to help me on this. Kind regards to all.
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Post by newey on Feb 26, 2019 20:47:38 GMT -5
Given the constraints of working for a living, I probably won't be able to re-draw the original diagram for a while. But swapping the wire colors around is a trivial exercise you can do yourself- just redraw the existing diagram in the new colors. Here's your conversion table. IIRC, you had given me the wire colors for your custom pickups, so the diagram should match the actual wiring. Original: | DiMarzio: | Red = NS | Red = NS | White = NF | Black = NF | Green = SF | White = SF | Black = SS | Green = SS |
So, on the diagram, red wires stay the same. White becomes Black, Green becomes White, Black becomes Green.
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Post by studiostriver on Feb 27, 2019 9:19:41 GMT -5
Given the constraints of working for a living, I probably won't be able to re-draw the original diagram for a while. But swapping the wire colors around is a trivial exercise you can do yourself- just redraw the existing diagram in the new colors. Here's your conversion table. IIRC, you had given me the wire colors for your custom pickups, so the diagram should match the actual wiring. Original: | DiMarzio: | Red = NS | Red = NS | White = NF | Black = NF | Green = SF | White = SF | Black = SS | Green = SS |
So, on the diagram, red wires stay the same. White becomes Black, Green becomes White, Black becomes Green. Thanks a lot newey,that if what I need to know. I can know redraw it myself. And I`m in no hurry, so I`ll wait for this second scheme with additional switch when you find time to do it. Regards.
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