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Post by studiostriver on Mar 5, 2019 22:08:40 GMT -5
Howdy guitar nuts dudes. Is there any progress with this scheme with additional switch for parallel connection?I`m still not in big hurry but since it passed a lot of time better to ask. Greetings.
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Post by Yogi B on Mar 6, 2019 0:26:13 GMT -5
Rereading the thread the only mention of another switch I found was: Would there be room for one more small dpdt toggle switch on your pickguard? If there is, then you could keep exactly what you have now but add this switch which will change the single coil modes from inner to outer coils. You could still have the push/pulls as they are to split each pickup, so then you could have humbucker plus single options, and all the others. I don't believe a switch for (local) parallel was discussed, so before I see about drawing/redrawing anything I must ask: what is the intended behaviour?
Here's my guess at how this could work: - When both coil-split push-pulls are down the additional switch has no effect.
- When either or both push-pulls are up, the additional switch chooses between normal (coil-split) and local parallel for each pickup.
(This table assumes the pre-existing mode switch (s4) is set to parallel and the selector switch (s3) is set to both pickups.)
Switches | Output |
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s5 | s2 | s1 | Pickup(s) |
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coil-cut | down | down | (BNorth × BSouth) + (NNorth × NSouth) | up | (BNorth × BSouth) + NNorth | up | down | (NNorth × NSouth) + BSouth | up | BSouth + NNorth | local parallel | down | down | (BNorth × BSouth) + (NNorth × NSouth) | up | (BNorth × BSouth) + NNorth + NSouth | up | down | (NNorth × NSouth) + BNorth + BSouth | up | BNorth + BSouth + NNorth + NSouth |
Is that right?
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Post by studiostriver on Mar 11, 2019 13:06:48 GMT -5
Rereading the thread the only mention of another switch I found was: Would there be room for one more small dpdt toggle switch on your pickguard? If there is, then you could keep exactly what you have now but add this switch which will change the single coil modes from inner to outer coils. You could still have the push/pulls as they are to split each pickup, so then you could have humbucker plus single options, and all the others. I don't believe a switch for (local) parallel was discussed, so before I see about drawing/redrawing anything I must ask: what is the intended behaviour?
Here's my guess at how this could work: - When both coil-split push-pulls are down the additional switch has no effect.
- When either or both push-pulls are up, the additional switch chooses between normal (coil-split) and local parallel for each pickup.
(This table assumes the pre-existing mode switch (s4) is set to parallel and the selector switch (s3) is set to both pickups.)
Switches | Output |
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s5 | s2 | s1 | Pickup(s) |
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coil-cut | down | down | (BNorth × BSouth) + (NNorth × NSouth) | up | (BNorth × BSouth) + NNorth | up | down | (NNorth × NSouth) + BSouth | up | BSouth + NNorth | local parallel | down | down | (BNorth × BSouth) + (NNorth × NSouth) | up | (BNorth × BSouth) + NNorth + NSouth | up | down | (NNorth × NSouth) + BNorth + BSouth | up | BNorth + BSouth + NNorth + NSouth |
Is that right? Thank you kindly for your input. Currently original shceme has both pickups in parallel,as it was on all pickup combinations. So basically we will get with this additional switch parallel wiring for split coils and it will not working with humbuckers. Is there option to actually make outer coil parallel split that will also work in split coil mode for one pickup?If not I`m fine with just split outer coils. That is what I need. Regards.
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Post by Yogi B on Mar 14, 2019 3:24:46 GMT -5
Currently original scheme has both pickups in parallel,as it was on all pickup combinations. So basically we will get with this additional switch parallel wiring for split coils and it will not working with humbuckers. I only showed the options when both pickups in parallel for the sake of brevity. The additional switch would work whenever the coils are split. Sorry, I thought you had abandoned the idea of swapping inner/outer coils in favour of putting the pickups in local parallel instead. Since you've said you won't be able to rotate the pickups and the inner or outer coil pairs usually aren't hum-cancelling. Speaking of that, I'm still somewhat perplexed by the pickup cavities' ability to restrict the orientation of pickups. I found a thread on sevenstring.org with pictures of the pickup cavities of a JP7, and I can see an obvious problem. Is yours different?
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Post by studiostriver on Sept 30, 2019 13:47:09 GMT -5
Currently original scheme has both pickups in parallel,as it was on all pickup combinations. So basically we will get with this additional switch parallel wiring for split coils and it will not working with humbuckers. I only showed the options when both pickups in parallel for the sake of brevity. The additional switch would work whenever the coils are split. Sorry, I thought you had abandoned the idea of swapping inner/outer coils in favour of putting the pickups in local parallel instead. Since you've said you won't be able to rotate the pickups and the inner or outer coil pairs usually aren't hum-cancelling. Speaking of that, I'm still somewhat perplexed by the pickup cavities' ability to restrict the orientation of pickups. I found a thread on sevenstring.org with pictures of the pickup cavities of a JP7, and I can see an obvious problem. Is yours different? Here is me after months from not answering at the very end of the year. Long story short I ended in hospital for whole month in June,later had more health problem and was not able to thinking about my swaping pickup project at all. As this changed me physically and mentally I ended up thinking simplifying what I need from my JP7 guitar. To answer on question cavity of JP7 is the same. If you are still willing to help me ,I`ll then write what of combination I do not need and want to get rid of it,and what I`ll keep? Kind regard to all guitar nuts users and admins.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 14:55:48 GMT -5
I'm always keep just ... I do get carried away and go off a wrong angles just drag me back in line and ill sulk for a bit but I live for the novel and different.. What is the current schematic.. you don't see SPDT on-on-on I do have 4P2T on-on-on but not many about .. Focus on the switching and you can lead on tone your self .
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 1, 2019 6:34:23 GMT -5
I'm always keep just ... I do get carried away and go off a wrong angles just drag me back in line and ill sulk for a bit but I live for the novel and different.. What is the current schematic.. you don't see SPDT on-on-on I do have 4P2T on-on-on but not many about .. Focus on the switching and you can lead on tone your self . Hi mister, I`ll wait for answer for persons that were working"with me"at the time to see if they are still willing/have time to give me a hand,since we havent talks about this one for months due reasons explained in rpevious comment. Regards.
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 3, 2019 17:28:14 GMT -5
Hm,i guess people get fed off me. Well it was to be expected I guess.
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Post by newey on Oct 4, 2019 11:43:02 GMT -5
SS- We're happy to help, I don't know why the others haven't jumped back into this. Let me read back through the whole thread over the weekend and I'll see if I can help.
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 4, 2019 17:56:12 GMT -5
SS- We're happy to help, I don't know why the others haven't jumped back into this. Let me read back through the whole thread over the weekend and I'll see if I can help. Hi newey!We havent talk for quite a long time. I ordered fresh new 7 string DiMarzios,they are on way from Canada (found deal on ebay) and waiting it to arrive to my country. We can in meantime slowly made a plan for bit stripped down version of scheme(if possible)we were talked on this post in the past in order to make it more simple and easier to navigate. Regards.
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 13, 2019 9:43:46 GMT -5
It looks like there are none people nerves left into helping me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 10:08:53 GMT -5
as far as i could read in the chat logs, i wasnt up to speed and you where after a Set person. I asked what the circuit looked like , because as I was reading the 4P2T on-on-on it suggested B2N, b2N and B/N (but everyone else read it different so I must be getting lost some where)
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 17, 2019 15:35:11 GMT -5
Hi.I was waiting for the persons who helped me in previous scheme to appear but I guess that will not happen. Here is the original scheme which I planned to change.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 8:41:50 GMT -5
Sadly i dont read that well i can do some thing Crazy and get (IN THEORY!) +N, +N & +B, +N & -B, +N2+B, +N2-B, +B, -B and KILL this is a Crazy switch I've made and tho works as far as i can test, not used yet in a Guitar. Basically its a 8T switch twisting Ground, +Bridge, -Bridge, -Neck and Output with +Neck hooked up to the Output all the time. S3 should be a 2P2T (On-On-On) other wise the N,N+B and B wouldnt work (think i said before that i dont know of a SP2T (On-On-On)
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 23, 2019 11:12:58 GMT -5
Pickups will came in one week and then I sending the guitar to luthier, saddly I`ll have to keep this scheme,it snot bad thing to have,but I would like very much to sorted things bit better. Saddly no one answering for quite a long time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 0:03:28 GMT -5
I do not read well. Coil taps for him, inner and outer
Neck is two pickups NN (neck outer) NS (neck inner) Bridge is BN (bridge Inner) and BS (bridge outer)
14 25 36
NN and NS join to volume pp pin 2 BN and BS join to volume pp pin 5 Volume pp Pin 1 to tone pp pin 2 Volume pp Pin 4 to tone pp pin 5 Tone pp pin 1 to ground Tone pp pin 3 to output Tone pp pin 4 to output Tone pp pin 6 to ground
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Post by newey on Oct 24, 2019 4:56:34 GMT -5
SS-
Back in March, I thought I understood what you wanted, but now after reading back through the entire thread, I'm confused.
The most recent explanation:
So, what is the new simplified plan? Previously, where we left off, you were wanting to keep your existing wiring the same, changing the pickups and wire colors, and adding another switch, but it was not clear to me exactly what this other switch is doing.
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 24, 2019 6:14:22 GMT -5
Yes I understand its confusing. I talked with JohnH via p.m. and gladly he is willing to help. Gonna write my new bit"simplified"scheme during the day. Know I`m quite busy.
I`m really honored you guys actually still willing to help since I changed my minds 3 times so far during the year,and I must confess It took me some time to figure out what positions I need and what I don`t. Also being sick for a long time made more delay to the project. Cheers, Dado.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2019 14:10:38 GMT -5
that 4P2T (on-on-on) is a killer
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Post by studiostriver on Oct 24, 2019 15:24:32 GMT -5
I`ll wait for JohnH answer to see his thoughts then I`ll write here the scheme. So not to mess up all ready totaly messed up post.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 1, 2019 6:49:35 GMT -5
We have had some discussions offline, and came up with this, for review:
It has a standard Gibson 3-way, a push/pull for series/parallel, another for phase and a three-position toggle for inner coils/both/outer coils. This is simplest as a dpdt on-off-on as shown here, but SS will use a 4pdt on-on-on since there is one in place from the previous wiring.
Wire colours are shown as based on DiMarzio. It should be all hum cancelling, except for single coils.
Wiring diagram is the next thing to do.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2019 12:08:19 GMT -5
I think that is just as good as a wiring diagram 3 Pots 2 Switch locations .. just looked up a Music Man JP7
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Post by JohnH on Nov 2, 2019 13:48:04 GMT -5
Thanks AB! The thing is though, that you and I both learnt to speak 'schematic' when we were young. For me, its the only way to draw a circuit that really helps me think about it.
But for many folk its just too abstract a representation to build from, particularly a complicated wiring like this one. I've got a diagram that I am nearly ready to post - and its a bit of a rats nest!
These MM guitars sure are pretty!
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Post by JohnH on Nov 2, 2019 14:51:13 GMT -5
Here's the diagram with everything on it: It assumes two similar DiMarzio pickups, in terms of magnetic polarity, wire colours and screw/slug coils. (screw coil is green/white, south, shown as blue) The main diagram uses the 4-pole on/on/on switch. It would be worth checking with a meter that the centre position has lugs internally connected as shown (see fine dashed red lines on switch), which I think is as normal. The idea is that in the middle position, it is not internally connected between lugs at all. A more efficient switch would be a dpdt on/off/on, which is shown inset and also on the schematic. Good luck! (I'd be very grateful if anyone would like to try to trace out a setting or two on the wiring diagram as a QA check)
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Post by sumgai on Nov 2, 2019 15:27:46 GMT -5
For those who might wish to know....
In actuality, the often mis-credited as a Gibson design, 3-way toggle switch is properly designated as an Off-On-Off switch. This is because when the actuator is moved to one side, that side's contacts are opened, thus disrupting current flow. What we do as guitarists is nothing more than harness that operation in reverse. IOW, at various times we want to ensure that the current flow (signal) for only one of the two switch halves continues unabated.
The short history of this design is exactly like Leo's Esquire switch, ca. 1950 - it was war surplus. As in, there were scads of thousands available, seemingly on every street corner (like 7-11 stores, a couple of decades later). Designed and made by Switchcraft, they were used in all kinds of electrical stuff, and were actually adapted to military use by various radio companies at the outbreak of WWII. That means that Switchcraft meant to continue production well after the war, and indeed, they are available today, albeit from a number of manufacturers, the patent being long expired.
Representing this switch on a schematic has always been problematic. The most commonly accepted way was probably that purloined by Gibson from many war-time drawings. Let me illustrate:
While this is the complete schematic for a Les Paul, Gibson used this method of drawing the 3-way toggle in nearly all of their drawings, and indeed, they still use it today. It "goes against the grain" to display the actuating mechanism on a schematic, but it seems to be the only way to describe the two halves of the switch, and how they are intended to operate in order to achieve the desired effect. (Indeed, this isn't the only component to "disobey the rules" of schematic drawings.)
BTW, for those who might wish to use the original pot value of 300KOhms with an audio taper, look closely above - the Gibson part number is shown under the handwritten "NOTE", and it's still valid! HTH
One more thing.... angeIsbunny has done a bang-up job of redrawing John's crib notes. Albeit there are differences in how to represent some things, like switch position connections, nonetheless ange's diagram is easy to follow. Insofar as I can see, both of these two diagrams are correct, per the Truth Table. Good job, Nutz!
But John, I do have one minor nit to pick with you. In your Truth Table, you describe the S/P switch as in/out. That makes me wonder, is "in" meant to be Series, or is it supposed to be Parallel? Better would've been to have that column denote the two possible conditions as "s" or "p", or so I believe. That way, a modder could hook up the p/p in the manner they wish. (One person might find it easier to have "down" mean Parallel, and another modder might wish for the opposite wiring. To each their own.)
sumgai
(Schematic "borrowed" from guitarelectronics.com. Any errors are theirs, not mine.)
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Post by studiostriver on Nov 3, 2019 7:18:09 GMT -5
Here's the diagram with everything on it: It assumes two similar DiMarzio pickups, in terms of magnetic polarity, wire colours and screw/slug coils. (screw coil is green/white, south, shown as blue) The main diagram uses the 4-pole on/on/on switch. It would be worth checking with a meter that the centre position has lugs internally connected as shown (see fine dashed red lines on switch), which I think is as normal. The idea is that in the middle position, it is not internally connected between lugs at all. A more efficient switch would be a dpdt on/off/on, which is shown inset and also on the schematic. Good luck! (I'd be very grateful if anyone would like to try to trace out a setting or two on the wiring diagram as a QA check) Thanks a lot John.This will make my life my easier,and also expand previous scheme with inner/outer coils I wanted so much.I`ll download this scheme and keep it when time come for me to swap new pickups. Still waiting them to come from Canada. One question,are these red lines on scheme on 3 Way pdt switch indicate those needs to be soldered? Does anything changed in scheme if I dont want to se treble bleed? I love when tone get smoother with lowering the volume down.It gives me more creamier sound when I need it from bridge pickup for example at ful high gain distortion,so good thing for solos. Cheers.
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Post by newey on Nov 3, 2019 9:14:57 GMT -5
No, those are meant just to show the internal connections for the center position of the switch, depending on whether you use an On-On-On or an On-Off-On switch (shown in the inset). As JohnH suggested, you (or your tech) should use a multimeter to ascertain that your particular switch operates as per the diagram.
Treble bleed can be added or not, as desired. It won't change anything else.
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Post by studiostriver on Nov 3, 2019 15:05:52 GMT -5
No, those are meant just to show the internal connections for the center position of the switch, depending on whether you use an On-On-On or an On-Off-On switch (shown in the inset). As JohnH suggested, you (or your tech) should use a multimeter to ascertain that your particular switch operates as per the diagram. Treble bleed can be added or not, as desired. It won't change anything else. Ok,thank you kindly for an explanation. The switch is as I mentioned few times on/on/on.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 3, 2019 15:54:52 GMT -5
I agree with newey. It would be best to check the switch in case any connections need moving position. Those 4pdt on/on/on switches are fairly uncommon and I've never personally seen one in real life . The thing about them is that, with lever up, all connections are down to the lower lugs, with lever down, all connections are up. But in the middle setting two are up and two are down.
I think, as I drew it, it's the most common arrangement, left to right: down-up-down,-up. But several other arrangements are possible so might as well check to be sure.
Also, your hex-screw pickups don't look like they give away many clues as to north and south and which physical coil is to which wire pair. Best to do some tests before wiring, even if the maker gives you data. Let's discuss once you get them. This scheme has quite a lot of thinking in it to make sure that every setting is as hum-cancelling as it can be (other than the single coil on their own), including all pairs of coils in and out of phase. So if any polarity or wire is swapped, it will likley go wrong!
I'll probably do a few minor graphical cleanups on the diagram, though so far I reckon the info is correct. But download it again when it's time to start.
Good luck with getting it built. And the price of using it, as with all designs on GN2, is some feedback in due course, on how it goes and what you think of it!
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Post by sumgai on Nov 3, 2019 21:39:00 GMT -5
..... And the price of using it, as with all designs on GN2, is some feedback in due course, on how it goes and what you think of it! Err, that's not quite all of the price. We also need to have audio clips posted (or even full video clips) in order that we can hear the final results. Other potential modders often find such clips useful.
sumgai
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