First new guitar

[dougusmc]

Hello all!   Newbie to the forum, and first time poster.   I've been playing for a while, and decided to try my hand at a rebuild of a project guitar.  I'll be starting a build thread, but am first tackling the wiring schematic, so I can get some parts on order.

I'm going to be recreating a Dick Dale Strat, but actually strung lefty for a lefty.  I'm trying to replicate his 3 way switch model of an older Strat, but replace his middle pickup toggle with a push/pull volume Pot. 

This is my plan:




Comments/suggestions/corrections extremely appreciated!

[newey]

dougusmc-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Unfortunately, your diagram has a number of problems, chief among them is that the output jack isn't connected to anything.

But we can certainly get you where you want to be. But first, a question as to what you want. I'm a big Dick Dale fan, but I have no idea how he had his guitars wired, and your request is a bit ambiguous.

1) Do you want the 3-way switch to switch between B-M-N in the 3 positions, with the push/pull adding the middle pickup to either the neck or bridge pickup in positions 1 or 3?

2) Or, do you want the 3-way to switch only the neck and bridge pickups, i.e., N, N+ B, B, with the P/P adding the middle to all positions of the 3-way switch?

The first option gives you the same 5 selections as a Strat with a 5-way switch, but it takes manipulating 2 separate switches to get those combos. The second option gives you 6 possible (parallel) combinations of 3 pickups- you'll add N + M + B, and M + N as well as M + B; you'll lose the middle pickup alone. Either scenario is possible with the switching you have, it's just a question of what you want.

Also, a traditional Strat with the 3-way switch instead of the 5-way (i.e., pre-1972) Did not have the middle pickup reverse wound, reverse polarity for hum-cancelling (since only one pickup was selected at a time). Given that you will be adding the middle, you may want to use a RWRP middle pickup if it doesn't have one already, so as to have the middle pickup be hum-cancelling when in combination

[dougusmc]

May 8, 2019 15:07:34 GMT -5 newey said:

dougusmc-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

Unfortunately, your diagram has a number of problems, chief among them is that the output jack isn't connected to anything.

But we can certainly get you where you want to be. But first, a question as to what you want. I'm a big Dick Dale fan, but I have no idea how he had his guitars wired, and your request is a bit ambiguous.

1) Do you want the 3-way switch to switch between B-M-N in the 3 positions, with the push/pull adding the middle pickup to either the neck or bridge pickup in positions 1 or 3?

2) Or, do you want the 3-way to switch only the neck and bridge pickups, i.e., N, N+ B, B, with the P/P adding the middle to all positions of the 3-way switch?

The first option gives you the same 5 selections as a Strat with a 5-way switch, but it takes manipulating 2 separate switches to get those combos. The second option gives you 6 possible (parallel) combinations of 3 pickups- you'll add N + M + B, and M + N as well as M + B; you'll lose the middle pickup alone. Either scenario is possible with the switching you have, it's just a question of what you want.

Also, a traditional Strat with the 3-way switch instead of the 5-way (i.e., pre-1972) Did not have the middle pickup reverse wound, reverse polarity for hum-cancelling (since only one pickup was selected at a time). Given that you will be adding the middle, you may want to use a RWRP middle pickup if it doesn't have one already, so as to have the middle pickup be hum-cancelling when in combination

Ok, that's a bummer, b/c I thought I'd nailed it.     I really don't understand why I have no output? 

First off, here's the best description I could find of how he had his guitar set up:
"Dale’s gold Stratocaster, nicknamed “The Beast,” employs a minimal wiring scheme ideal for his style. The guitar is loaded with stock ’60s Strat pickups wired to a 3-way pickup selector rather than the usual 5-way switch. The only pot is an A250k master volume—there are no tone controls. There’s also an on/off mini-toggle switch to add the middle pickup to the 3-way switch’s neck position—and that’s it! It sounds pretty minimal, but works as intended, providing crisp tones ideal for surf music."
(Credit Dirk Wacker @ PremierGuitar)

He also included a copy of a wiring diagram (which he credited to singlecoil.com)



To answer your questions:
- Yes, I would prefer the 3 way switch to be the original B-M-N, with the pull adding the M to either B or N.
- I plan to use SD Antiquity II Surfer pups in the guitar, which I think will replicate what Dick did on his?

[newey]

I really don't understand why I have no output?

Start with the "hot" wire from the output jack(shown as purple)and work backwards. The purple wire from the output jack "hot" connects to lug "E" of the push/pull, and lug E is, in turn, jumpered to lug D.

Pull the switch up, and lug E connects to lug D. But since lug E is already attached to D via the jumper wire, the wire is simply shorted to itself and does nothing. Push the switch down, and lug E connects to lug F, which is not connected to anything. So, either way, no part of the rest of the wiring connects to the output.

The Dirk Wacker diagram uses a SPST switch that simply adds (or breaks)the middle pickup connection to the neck at Position 3 on the switch. The diagram is fine, it will work as intended. However, your request is for the middle to be added not just to the neck, but to the bridge as well. And since you have a DPDT push/pull, you can easily do what you want. Rather than have me draw it up for you, I'll explain verbally what to do and you can draw it up for proofreading.

Wire your guitar just as in the Wacker diagram, except do not wire the middle pickup to the 3-way switch. Instead, wire the "hot" wire of the middle pickup to lug "B" on the push/pull. Wire Lug A of the push/pull to Lug B0 of the 3-way switch. Wire lug C of the push/pull to lug A2 of the 3-way switch.

Your original diagram also does not show the wiring to/from the volume pot. Lug B0 of the 3-way (or lug A0, doesn't matter which) needs to connect to the clockwise lug of the volume pot. the CCW lug is grounded, as shown in the Wacker diagram, and the center "wiper" lug is wired to the output jack tip (thereby giving you output )

You can trace the wiring to see how this works. With the push/pull down, B connects to C, so the middle pickup is then connected, as expected, to lug A2, which is the middle position of the 3-way. With the P/P pulled up, lug B connects to lug A, which in turn is connected directly to the output via lug B0 of the 3-way, and via the volume pot.

Hope that makes sense, ask away with any questions!

[Deleted]

Just looking at this... this Pre-5way switch then

A	Input of Volume	BO	D
B	Middle Pickup	Output of Volume	E
C	N/C	To Jack Socket	F

AO	Input of Volume	From D	BO
A1	NECK	To Jack Socket	B1
A2	MIDDLE	GND	B2
A3	BRIDGE	To Jack Socket	B3

This should give you

DOWN	UP
NECK	NECK+MIDDLE
MIDDLE	KILL SWITCH
BRIDGE	BRIDGE+MIDDLE

waste not want not

[dougusmc]

May 8, 2019 22:35:28 GMT -5 newey said:

I really don't understand why I have no output?

Start with the "hot" wire from the output jack(shown as purple)and work backwards. The purple wire from the output jack "hot" connects to lug "E" of the push/pull, and lug E is, in turn, jumpered to lug D.

Pull the switch up, and lug E connects to lug D. But since lug E is already attached to D via the jumper wire, the wire is simply shorted to itself and does nothing. Push the switch down, and lug E connects to lug F, which is not connected to anything. So, either way, no part of the rest of the wiring connects to the output.

The Dirk Wacker diagram uses a SPST switch that simply adds (or breaks)the middle pickup connection to the neck at Position 3 on the switch. The diagram is fine, it will work as intended. However, your request is for the middle to be added not just to the neck, but to the bridge as well. And since you have a DPDT push/pull, you can easily do what you want. Rather than have me draw it up for you, I'll explain verbally what to do and you can draw it up for proofreading.

Wire your guitar just as in the Wacker diagram, except do not wire the middle pickup to the 3-way switch. Instead, wire the "hot" wire of the middle pickup to lug "B" on the push/pull. Wire Lug A of the push/pull to Lug B0 of the 3-way switch. Wire lug C of the push/pull to lug A2 of the 3-way switch.

Your original diagram also does not show the wiring to/from the volume pot. Lug B0 of the 3-way (or lug A0, doesn't matter which) needs to connect to the clockwise lug of the volume pot. the CCW lug is grounded, as shown in the Wacker diagram, and the center "wiper" lug is wired to the output jack tip (thereby giving you output )

You can trace the wiring to see how this works. With the push/pull down, B connects to C, so the middle pickup is then connected, as expected, to lug A2, which is the middle position of the 3-way. With the P/P pulled up, lug B connects to lug A, which in turn is connected directly to the output via lug B0 of the 3-way, and via the volume pot.

Hope that makes sense, ask away with any questions!

Sorry to disappear for a few days, but Mothers' Day took precedent! 

Thanks for the clarification, I think I understand now.

If I understand, I was making two mistakes:
1) I was trying to switch the inputs in two places, at the 3 way and the push pull, instead of letting the push/pull do it
2) I didn't realize that the A-F lugs were the selector, and the top 3 lugs the volume pot

I believe I made the correct adjustments, please let me know if I messed anything up.

[Deleted]

[newey]

That should do it, doug. Angelsbunny's way works, too, but is more complex.

[dougusmc]

Thanks to both, and now I'm really excited to order the components to make it happen! I finished final sanding on the body over the weekend, and the first coat of sanding sealer was just sprayed last night.

Angelbunny: I dig that yours is the more complete solution, but I'm trying to specifically recreate the functionality of Dick Dale's, and his toggle switch only adds the middle PU to a single config, which is why I jumped on board the other design and ignored yours.  Sorry I didn't mention that in my comment, I do appreciate your input in making my design better.

[reTrEaD]

May 14, 2019 7:36:44 GMT -5 dougusmc said:

Thanks to both, and now I'm really excited to order the components to make it happen! I finished final sanding on the body over the weekend, and the first coat of sanding sealer was just sprayed last night.

Angelbunny: I dig that yours is the more complete solution, but I'm trying to specifically recreate the functionality of Dick Dale's, and his toggle switch only adds the middle PU to a single config, which is why I jumped on board the other design and ignored yours.  Sorry I didn't mention that in my comment, I do appreciate your input in making my design better.

I have some bad news.

You followed newey 's instructions exactly and that will result in circuit that works, but doesn't fit the description you just gave. It results in adding the middle pickup to two positions.

---

@angelsbunny 's plan is rather interesting. It answer's a question that wasn't asked here. But it does give three pairs, in addition to the three singles.

With a bit of wrangling, we could take that idea and change the position of the pairs.

- push-pull up:
Neck + Middle
Neck + Bridge
Bridge + Middle

- push-pull down:
Neck
Middle
Bridge

But again, this doesn't fit with the description you just gave.

---

If you want the middle added to just one position, which position?

[dougusmc]

May 14, 2019 8:18:00 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

May 14, 2019 7:36:44 GMT -5 dougusmc said:

Thanks to both, and now I'm really excited to order the components to make it happen! I finished final sanding on the body over the weekend, and the first coat of sanding sealer was just sprayed last night.

Angelbunny: I dig that yours is the more complete solution, but I'm trying to specifically recreate the functionality of Dick Dale's, and his toggle switch only adds the middle PU to a single config, which is why I jumped on board the other design and ignored yours.  Sorry I didn't mention that in my comment, I do appreciate your input in making my design better.

I have some bad news.

You followed newey 's instructions exactly and that will result in circuit that works, but doesn't fit the description you just gave. It results in adding the middle pickup to two positions.

---

@angelsbunny 's plan is rather interesting. It answer's a question that wasn't asked here. But it does give three pairs, in addition to the three singles.

With a bit of wrangling, we could take that idea and change the position of the pairs.

- push-pull up:
Neck + Middle
Neck + Bridge
Bridge + Middle

- push-pull down:
Neck
Middle
Bridge

But again, this doesn't fit with the description you just gave.

---

If you want the middle added to just one position, which position?

Yeah, I saw that as I was hitting the "post button", the on pull the middle would then be able to be added to either neck or bridge selection of the 3 way.  

According to the article, the toggle switch on Dale's Beast added the middle PU to the neck position of the 3 way. I can't figure out a way to make that happen w/the push/pull tho?

[Deleted]

BIG SORRY, i try and get too much in to a small space . and forget to read the QUESTION 



if this is the circuit .. JUST have NECK PU wiring to COMMON ( Being the Middle Lugs on the switch)
and above it have the Middle PU wired to one above (near the Pot side)
Dont forget to Ground the CASE
Will do the same as a SPST switch  do think waste of a 2P3T Switch and DPDT 

most in the SPACE would be a 5way switch to let you Phase the Bridge and the DPDT to being in the Middle when you want.. But thats just me 

[reTrEaD]

May 14, 2019 9:11:27 GMT -5 @angelsbunny said:

BIG SORRY, i try and get too much in to a small space . and forget to read the QUESTION 

No worries, just take your time and read more carefully before answering. You'll be okay.

dougusmc wants a push-pull switch on his volume control rather than a minitoggle and the one he's using has a DPDT.

Doug, you can use the drawing with the minitoggle as the basis for your circuit. Just connect one of the wires that would have gone to the minitoggle to A of your push-pull and the other one to B.

[dougusmc]

May 14, 2019 9:27:10 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

May 14, 2019 9:11:27 GMT -5 @angelsbunny said:

BIG SORRY, i try and get too much in to a small space . and forget to read the QUESTION 

No worries, just take your time and read more carefully before answering. You'll be okay.

dougusmc wants a push-pull switch on his volume control rather than a minitoggle and the one he's using has a DPDT.

Doug, you can use the drawing with the minitoggle as the basis for your circuit. Just connect one of the wires that would have gone to the minitoggle to A of your push-pull and the other one to B.

Angelbunny: No worries, I appreciate the assist either way!

reTreEaD: You nailed it!  That's what I was trying to accomplish in my initial drawing, but it took your reply just now for me to see what I was doing wrong.  I didn't realize that the top 3 lugs were the vol pot portion of the DPDT until the updates you suggested the other day, so that's why I had the spaghetti across the A-F lugs.   

Is this what you're talking about?

[reTrEaD]

May 15, 2019 7:42:14 GMT -5 dougusmc said:

Is this what you're talking about?

Yep, that'll do it.

[dougusmc]

May 15, 2019 8:27:48 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

May 15, 2019 7:42:14 GMT -5 dougusmc said:

Is this what you're talking about?

Yep, that'll do it.

Awesome, thanks!!

[dougusmc]

Project completed, everything works!

[sumgai]

doug,



Hi, and to The NutzHouse!


Nothing wrong with being a DickHead as far as I'm concerned!! The Father Of Loud was a shining example of keeping it simple, yet stirring the soul. You'll likely note my mini-profile to the right, and where it says "Master Fwipper", well, that should give you clue as to my favorite genre.

Now as to your axe. I see where you wanted Middle added to Neck, and you've got that. However, you've also got Neck added to Middle, don't you.... it comes with the terrirory, so don't get upset. The only real problem here is one of switching to a different tonality, especially when playing live... and when you have to manipulate two switches in order arrive at your desired sound. If you like, and play often with, the Middle pup alone, then we can get just a little fancy and eliminate that "extra" combination, using just the parts you already have installed - nothing new, unless you consider an extra wire or two as "new".

However, if you're happy with your current setup, then I'll just hush up and drop back into the background - your call.

Oh, and have you considered intonating your bridge?  Or have you already done that, after taking the photo....?

HTH

sumgai

[dougusmc]

Jun 9, 2019 18:09:41 GMT -5 sumgai said:

doug,



Hi, and to The NutzHouse!


Nothing wrong with being a DickHead as far as I'm concerned!! The Father Of Loud was a shining example of keeping it simple, yet stirring the soul. You'll likely note my mini-profile to the right, and where it says "Master Fwipper", well, that should give you clue as to my favorite genre.

Now as to your axe. I see where you wanted Middle added to Neck, and you've got that. However, you've also got Neck added to Middle, don't you.... it comes with the terrirory, so don't get upset. The only real problem here is one of switching to a different tonality, especially when playing live... and when you have to manipulate two switches in order arrive at your desired sound. If you like, and play often with, the Middle pup alone, then we can get just a little fancy and eliminate that "extra" combination, using just the parts you already have installed - nothing new, unless you consider an extra wire or two as "new".

However, if you're happy with your current setup, then I'll just hush up and drop back into the background - your call.

Oh, and have you considered intonating your bridge?  Or have you already done that, after taking the photo....?

HTH

sumgai

Phew, so it's not just me!!     I noticed the pickup configuration you mentioned last night, and thought I'd messed something up!   Interesting that you mentioned tonality too, since I was thinking I wanted to try to give it a little more twang.

The "good news" is that I used cheap strings to set it up, since I hadn't gotten any copper tape prior to assembly, so I was planning to re-open it to do that anyway.   That gives me a good opportunity to make any other changes.   If I'm looking for the blade to be Neck, Middle, Bridge; and the pull to be Neck + bridge, what should I do?

I don't understand how I could pull off tonality in that configuration either?

[reTrEaD]

Jun 10, 2019 6:49:12 GMT -5 dougusmc said:

If I'm looking for the blade to be Neck, Middle, Bridge; and the pull to be Neck + bridge, what should I do?

To clarify, are you asking for the pull position on the push-pull to completely override whatever is selected on the blade and result in Neck + Bridge? That's definitely possible if that's what you're after.

[newey]

Phew, so it's not just me!! I noticed the pickup configuration you mentioned last night, and thought I'd messed something up!

What's worse is that several of us looked at that diagram and nobody commented that you were adding middle to the neck at position 3, as well as adding neck to middle at position 2 with the P/P up. Not necessarily bad, just not specifically what you asked for.

But, now you're asking for something different:

If I'm looking for the blade to be Neck, Middle, Bridge; and the pull to be Neck + bridge, what should I do?

Have I got a deal for you! Howza 'bout the P/P giving you N + M when pulled up if the 3-way is set to position 3 (i.e., neck only), but giving you N + B when pulled up with the 3-way set to position 1 (i.e., bridge only)? (The P/P has no effect when pulled if the 3-way is in position 2, middle alone.)

[sumgai]

espy,


If I've read your recent reply correctly, you're wondering how to make the switch select "Neck + Mid" only, and not have "Mid + Neck" - is that correct? (Hopefully so, because I've put a fair amount of work into this reply!)


Here's what you have currently, rendered as a schematic: (You did say that you have some familiarity with electronics.)




Note that you've used the Common terminal of both A and B poles.  This wasn't necessary, but I can see where it's a holdover from the original Fender circuit that connected the Tone controls to the B pole.   But seeing that "doubled" connection in place, it should be easy to understand the following modification.

Here it is, giving you the "Neck + Mid" combo, and eliminating the "Mid + Neck" possibility:





And here's what I think you asked for, Mid added to either Neck or Bridge, as selected, but without any chance of either Neck or Bridge being added to Mid:





Hopefully you (and other readers) can make sense of all that. (And of course, none of the follow-on controls are shown, it's assumed that they will be added per the modder's desires.)

HTH



sumgai

[Deleted]

Why not GO CRAZY............

Have a POT, with a Push/Pull system....
Make the Push/Pull in to a Phase Switch for MIDDLE Pickup.
New HOT to the Middle LUG of the POT
One side to the INPUT of the VOLUME, the other side
(take the POT Board out and CUT the track just above Silver near the END)
this will make is so ONE way is 0 Ohms to Volume and the other side FULLY wont connect (OFF)

Paired up with a Cheap and Nasty S-Type 5 Way Switch, 
1) B+ 2) N+ 3) B- 4)Volume 5)GND 6) B- 7)N/C 8) B+
Now have the Bridge Phased.
Bridge, Neck&Bridge, Neck, Neck&Phased Bridge, Phased Bridge
Blend in the Middle as you like, on top with its own Phase
Now got every Combination in Parallel 

[sumgai]

Jun 10, 2019 15:59:53 GMT -5 @angelsbunny said:

Why not GO CRAZY............
......

Perhaps because doug's trying to strip out as much cruft as possible, and get down to the business of playing Surf guitar. Trust me, any one who's spent some serious time listening to Surf music can, and will, determine when the player is not staying true to the Laws Of Surf Music, as laid down by Dick Dale in 1961. And a few others... a very few. (Determines that now is not the correct time to list other Surf bands, as the list would not stop at an even 100 - there'd be no less than 200, and probably more. )




sumgai

[dougusmc]

Thanks for the replies everyone!   Sorry to go ghost for a bit, but I've been playing on the guitar with all my free time!

Again credit to Dirk Wacher @ The Mod Garage:
"Dale’s gold Stratocaster, nicknamed “The Beast,” employs a minimal wiring scheme ideal for his style. The guitar is loaded with stock ’60s Strat pickups wired to a 3-way pickup selector rather than the usual 5-way switch. The only pot is an A250k master volume—there are no tone controls. There’s also an on/off mini-toggle switch to add the middle pickup to the 3-way switch’s neck position—and that’s it!"

There are so many possibilities, I think it's best to just stick to my original intent: mirroring The Beast as closely as possible. The only change I'm making is in an attempt to even further simplify the pickguard, removing his toggle switch.  I'm trying to get to N, M, B on the 3 way, then pull to add M to N.

sumgai: I can't see the diagrams from here @ work, I think the file sharing site is blocked by our fw.  Thanks for the help, I'll check it out when I get home.

[newey]

You can use my diagram. Just omit the two yellow wires going to the P/P switch. The P/P will then add the middle pup to the neck pup when the 3-way switch is set to the neck position (position #3 as shown). The P/P will have no effect in the other positions of the 3-way switch.

[dougusmc]

Hey everyone!   Sorry to necro-bump my own post so much later, but I could really use another assist.   

Shortly after my last post, I changed my amp/cab rig, and suddenly started hearing a lot of hum from this guitar.  After trying to track down the problem for a little while, I got frustrated and pretty much put it down for a while.

I've recently tried to pick it back up and understand the feedback on correcting the switching in the last few posts, but don't understand well enough.  It looks like Newey's post most closely maps to what I'm trying to accomplish, but I don't understand how to eliminate the yellow wires, and combine the DPDT & volume pot (since mine are the same).


To remind everyone, my goals are:

- Three way switch with N, M, B

- Pull the volume pot to override the 3 way switch to get to M+N 

Friendly reminder, here's what I have now:



As always, thanks in advance!!

[newey]

Doug-

The diagram you show should do exactly what you want- add the middle to the neck when the 3-way is set to "neck only" and when the P/P is pulled up. If that's the way you have it wired now, I guess I'm not understanding what the issue is? Or were you asking about how to minimize the hum?

[dougusmc]

Nov 6, 2019 13:15:17 GMT -5 newey said:

Doug-

The diagram you show should do exactly what you want- add the middle to the neck when the 3-way is set to "neck only" and when the P/P is pulled up. If that's the way you have it wired now, I guess I'm not understanding what the issue is? Or were you asking about how to minimize the hum?

Hmmm, I thought the last few posts were talking about how that WOULDN'T work that way?

I definitely need help reducing hum though.  It's only "bad" when hands are on the strings, but "unbearable" when they're not, if the amp is at any volume at all.

[newey]

Doug, you're right, I had misread the previous posts. The second schematic sumgai posted above is the one you want. To translate that into a wiring diagram, use your diagram above as the starting point. Everything will be wired exactly the same as you have it, except that you will move a single connection. The blue wire, which currently runs from lug B on the push/pull switch to lug A3 on the three-way switch, needs to run instead to lug B3 on the three-way. You're just moving one connection, from A3 to B3.

That's assuming you want the push/pull to just add the middle to the neck at position 3 on the switch- apparently the classic Dick Dale scheme. If you want to have the P/P add the middle to the neck at position 3, and also to the bridge at position 1, then sg's 3rd schematic above does that, with the addition of one extra wire.