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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 27, 2019 12:03:24 GMT -5
So I’ve had this Rickenbacker 330 for over 25 years, and this has always been a thing. I bought it from a store I worked at. The guy who supervised me and basically ran the instrument side of things told me that these guitars came from the factory with some kind of (carnuba?) wax on them, and basically need to be rubbed with lemon oil every day in order to keep it well conditioned. IDK if this is really true. Sure can’t find any mention of it in a quick trip to my preferred search engine . I DID find other instances of people complaining about an issue similar to mine. Namely, it just feels gross to play. There quite definitely is some kind of waxy nastiness on the neck. It’s kind of tacky to the touch and it’s bad enough to hinder certain aspects of performance. It will sometimes kind of bead up and build up on certain parts of the neck. Lemon oil really does seem to help reconstitute it, clean it up, slick it up, and make it playable...like right away after it’s been wiped down. I mean, it lasts a while, but if I put it down and come back in a few days, it’ll be headed downhill again. I honestly don’t hardly even play it. This thing needs to be wined and dined and all the foreplay, but my other guitars are just ready to smash pretty much any time. They get grungey after a while, so I’ll give them a whores shower once in a while, but that’s almost just cosmetic compared to this thing. So I got two questions: 1) Is this really a thing? Does Rick wax up the guitars before they leave the factory, or was Kevin just talking out his...  B) How do I get rid of it? There’s a certain romance to having that one guitar that I only use so often and I make it a whole ritual experience, but honestly when it plays it’s a great guitar, and I want to use it a lot more often. I don’t intend to take it to some basement punk show, but I’d like to be able to grab it in the studio any time I need to, in the heat of the moment, when inspiration strikes. It’s just not going to get wiped down every time I pick it up. I want to remove whatever this crap is completely so that I don’t need to deal with it ever again. |
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Post by thetragichero on Sept 27, 2019 14:48:30 GMT -5
i have no idea how it comes from the factory, but after i finish sand and polish a neck i hit it with wax and buff to a nice shine. never had any problems with stickiness
after refinishing a few necks and playing on a buffed gloss (rather than something that dried as a gloss as i suspect most production guitars are), there is a HUGE difference in playability to me
could the waxiness be due to an excess of oil? anyone who has ever had to clean behind a deep fryer can tell you that oil just left somewhere gets pretty gnarly and gummy
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Post by ashcatlt on Sept 27, 2019 21:53:12 GMT -5
could the waxiness be due to an excess of oil? I suppose it could be. Still, though, what to do? Dish soap?!? |
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Post by thetragichero on Sept 27, 2019 23:10:36 GMT -5
that was a thought. i am by no means a luthier; just a guy brave (or foolish) enough to act like one, so take that with a grain of salt
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Post by newey on Sept 28, 2019 21:39:26 GMT -5
I take it, ashcatlt, that you want a solution that falls short of stripping and refinishing the entire neck?
I have zero experience with anything of the sort, so this is not a suggestion informed by much of anything, but I suspect that wiping it down several times with mineral spirits would suffice to remove any nastiness, and then wax/buff it out as Tragic suggests?
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Post by reTrEaD on Sept 29, 2019 12:56:40 GMT -5
ashcatlt , I don't know what kind of finish your guitar has. I *think* Rickenbacker originally used Nitrocellulose Lacquer, then changed to Conversion Varnish, then more recently to Polyurethane? In any case, putting Lemon Oil on top of a hard finish seems like a bad idea, whether or not it's been waxed. On bare wood, one might apply a drying oil such as Tung Oil or Linseed Oil to create a finish over time and multiple applications. But that's a different type of oil that hardens after prolonged exposure to air. The Lemon Oil used as a furniture polish, from what I understand, isn't actually from lemons. It's essentially a petroleum product, although it may be scented to smell like lemons. Instead of hardening to a solid, it becomes sticky and gummy over time. Dish soap (add some ammonium hydroxide to make it more effective) will probably remove the oil residue. Something like Windex would also be effective, although the alcohol in it could possibly damage a nitrocellulose finish. Mineral spirits, naphtha, or a wax and grease remover from an automotive refinishing supply house should also be effective and be unlikely to damage the finish. Of course, you would want to try any of the more aggressive approaches somewhere any damage to the finish wouldn't show.
fwiw, Glossy finishes, waxed or not, look very pretty but tend to be slow. Some players prefer to scuff their necks with a Scotch-Brite pad, 0000 steel wool or even 600 grit sandpaper. This will cause the neck to appear quite dull but your hand will glide more easily across it. However, if you do this, take care to not sand through the finish. In addition, you can use some talcum powder on your fretting hand. If you do scuff your neck, there is some recourse if you want it to look pretty again before sale. You can use some rubbing compound, then polishing compound, then wax to bring out the shine (and slow your neck back down). Since you'll be removing some of the finish during the scuffing and again during the polishing, You won't want to do this often.
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Post by thetragichero on Sept 29, 2019 13:52:52 GMT -5
if the nitro lacquer either didn't cure properly or were exposed to something to 'denature' it, if you will (i have heard this happening to guitars inside the case), could this waxiness be nitro gunk?
as a side note, i keep learning more and more things should never come in contact with denatured or isopropyl alcohols the hard way. it's such a shame since it cleans stuff so well
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 11, 2019 11:31:52 GMT -5
Well, whatever it is, it's gross, and it sure acts waxy. I made a video last night trying to demonstrate the issue. Then, since it was LT Thursday, I messed with the audio to make it an experimental noise track. You can just mute it if you want. I think the video shows you what I'm dealing with. Yes, the guitar is just laying on the bare counter top. It's been through worse, believe me. reTrEaD - I think that might be a different issue, but this damage here is from just hanging peacefully on the rubberized tool hooks that I use as guitar hangers which haven't even phased any of my other instruments.   |
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Post by reTrEaD on Oct 11, 2019 13:43:28 GMT -5
I think the video shows you what I'm dealing with. Wow! That's some seriously nasty stuff. I don't think dish soap will even make a dent in that. Maybe with a generous amount of ammonium hydroxide in the mix, but more likely that will require something stronger. One product I didn't mention before is Simple Green.  That might do the job but I'm not certain that stronger measures like Wax and Grease remover won't be necessary.  One way or another that gunk needs to go away.
Regarding the localized damage in the area that was in contact with the rubberized hooks, it looks like some sort of chemical reaction between the underlying finish and the gunk on top and perhaps some off-gassing that came from the coating on the hooks? It looks as if the finish was dissolved. |
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Post by newey on Oct 11, 2019 14:55:50 GMT -5
I've had similar problems from the rubber padding used on guitar stands, though not as bad as what Ash's photo shows. But after leaving guitars sitting in a stand for several months on end (I have quite a few, and they don't all get played regularly), I've found the rubber reacting a bit with the finish, leaving a gummy residue. My solution has been to cover the rubber padding at both the heel ends and the neck end of the stand with cut-up pieces of old cotton athletic socks. This seems to work fine to keep the stickiness from the rubber off the guitar.
EDIT:And, so now I went back and looked at Ash's video. I dunno about "waxy residue", it looks to me like the guitar's actual finish is just disintegrating.
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Post by thetragichero on Oct 11, 2019 15:20:34 GMT -5
break out the denatured alcohol!
(i once read a thread that suggested someone use either isopropyl alcohol or vodka to clean such as such up, and what they had on hand depended upon whether the person were a luthier or a musician. i got a chuckle)
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Post by ashcatlt on Oct 15, 2019 12:51:46 GMT -5
Well, ammonia seems to have helped quite a bit. I used the green side of one of those green and yellow scrungey things and just straight ammonia out of the bottle and scrubbed away for a while, and it has made a real difference both visually and in feel. The first attempt was more a proof of concept, and I'll have to go back and do a more thorough job soon, but even now it feels and plays a lot better. Like a whole new guitar.
Thanks for your help everybody!
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