Modifying my Yamaha SE1203

[yldouright]

I inherited this guitar and it set up pretty well but it's quite muddy. I considered changing the pickups and using higher value pots but figured I'd try some wiring mods and cheaper parts first to brighten it up. Here is what I found:

1. The pickups are rather highly wound and high impedance.
2. The pot values are all under the 250K spec (218K being the lowest).
3. The small toggle switches the pups into serial parallel configurations.

My plan is to re-purpose the toggle to get OOP (out of phase) tones so that when it is employed I get the 10 configs below:

P1 - Neck                 w/toggle - Neck + Middle + Bridge
P2 - Neck + Middle        w/toggle - Neck + Middle OOP
P3 - Middle               w/toggle - Middle + Bridge + Neck OOP
P4 - Bridge + Middle      w/toggle - Bridge + Middle OOP
P5 - Bridge               w/toggle - Bridge + Neck


Does anyone see a reason why these configs won't route with the stock toggle switch? Which is the better strategy to brighten the guitar and get some spank:
a) raise the pot and lower the cap values?
b) rewire with the scheme above?

[newey]

My plan is to re-purpose the toggle to get OOP (out of phase) tones so that when it is employed I get the 10 configs below:

P1 - Neck w/toggle - Neck + Middle + Bridge
P2 - Neck + Middle w/toggle - Neck + Middle OOP
P3 - Middle w/toggle - Middle + Bridge + Neck
P4 - Bridge + Middle w/toggle - Bridge + Middle + Neck
P5 - Bridge w/toggle - Bridge + Neck

If your toggle switch is currently used for a series/parallel switch (not clear from your post exactly how it operates, but even so . . .), it is likely that it is a double-pole double throw switch (DPDT). Using that switch to put one of the three pickups OOP is certainly possible, but that would, in and of itself, use the two poles on the switch, meaning that you would not be able to accomplish the other switching listed in your "wish list" unless you have a switch with more poles available. Several more, in fact.

Also understand that, when we use a plus sign ("+"), we use it to mean a parallel connection between the pickups (we use a "X" to indicate a series connection). I am going to assume that is the way you have used the symbol in your table above- if not, please correct me.

Assuming that is the case, you have listed parallel configurations of "Neck + Middle + Bridge" at P1, "Middle + Bridge + Neck" at p 3, and "Bridge + Middle + Neck" at P 4. The order of components here will make no difference. All three of those settings will sound exactly the same- because they are, in fact, the same.

Which is the better strategy to brighten the guitar and get some spank:
a) raise the pot and lower the cap values?
b) rewire with the scheme above?

"b" is a non-starter, for the reasons listed above. As for "a", overwound pickups do tend to sound darker, and using pots with a higher value will help to some extent. Lowering the (tone) cap value will only change things as you turn the knob down- with the controls at "10", the cap is effectively out of the circuit.

Another option you may want to consider is using the existing toggle switch (or another one, if you want to keep the existing switch "as is") is to use the switch as a "direct out", from the 5-way switch to the jack, bypassing the V and T controls entirely. This will brighten things up considerably, although you would not have V and T controls with the switch flipped to bypass. Flip it back, you'd have the V and T but with the darker tone you have now. Of course, you could do both- raise the pot values and also add a switch to bypass the controls.

[yldouright]

Thanks for pointing out my omission of OOP on the config table above, I've corrected it. Now there are 10 distinct tones. When I take notes on the pickup connections, I use "U" to denote a serial connection, "II" to denote a parallel one and "Ø" to denote out of phase. I'll use your conventions in future posts but yes, I did want them connected in parallel in my attempt to get a clearer sound so the "+" is correct.

I thought we might be able to fit the scheme above on the 6 toggle connections (A1-A3, B1-B3). For simplification, we will ignore the volume and tone pots. Assume the following for the purpose of this discussion:

1. The toggle switch has a GND tab and output common.
2. The pickups will be mounted on the pick guard, neck (north-south), middle (south-north) and bridge (north-south).
3. Note that there is only one configuration where the "M" pup is missing when the toggle is "ON" so perhaps we can figure a way to have it "always on" when the toggle is thrown and shorted by the selection of position 5 on the pickup selector.
4. We'll set up a normal crossover (A1 to B2 and B1 to A2) on the toggle, with one side (B1) to GND and the other (A1) taking the "M" pup hot.
5. The remaining pins will take the "B" and "N" hots on a single pin (A3) on the same side as the "M" hot and their two GNDs will connect to the opposing side pin (B3).
6. The rest of the magic has to come from the pickup selector switch connection or perhaps from an additional jumper on the toggle. It's a puzzle for sure but it seems solvable.

I hope I've made my musings clear in the text above.

[Deleted]

dam type it all out and then forget to ADD MIDDLE pickup in Positions 2&4 

AIM is to get this :TOGGLE OFF
P1 - Neck 
P2 - Neck + Middle 
P3 - Middle
P4 - Bridge + Middle 
P5 - Bridge 

And this: TOGGLE ON
P1 - Neck + Middle + Bridge
P2 - Neck + Middle OOP
P3 - Middle + Bridge + Neck OOP
P4 - Bridge + Middle OOP
P5 - Bridge + Neck


Could do N NM M MB B and have the middle phase switch
And do another one toggle to have NMB nMB xxx nB NB

[newey]

1. The toggle switch has a GND tab and output common.

It (presumably) has a tab to ground the switch frame. This is not a signal-carrying connection. I don't know what you mean by an "output common". You describe 6 lugs to which things can be connected, which is typical for a DPDT switch. Presumably, your numbering scheme looks like this:

A1 B1

A2 B2

A3 B3

Right? If so, this is a typical DPDT switch, where A2 and B2 are the common connections.

4. We'll set up a normal crossover (A1 to B2 and B1 to A2) on the toggle, with one side (B1) to GND and the other (A1) taking the "M" pup hot.
5. The remaining pins will take the "B" and "N" hots on a single pin (A3) on the same side as the "M" hot and their two GNDs will connect to the opposing side pin (B3).

So, here's what I get from your description:


If I'm misreading what you mean, let me know, but there are numerous problems here. For starters, the switch does not connect to output (or to the 5-way switch, or anywhere else where the + signal might be going.)

With the switch flipped "down" (i.e., A1 connects to A2, B1 to B2, since the switch lever is opposite of the lugs it connects), then your M + connects to ground. M - doesn't connect to the switch (per your description), so I can't tell what if anything is connected. (A phase switch has to switch both + and - leads, and must output to the jack (or other components) and to ground).

With the switch flipped "up", then the B + and N + are both grounded, and the B- and N- connect to the M +. Again, there is no output connection.

6. The rest of the magic has to come from the pickup selector switch connection or perhaps from an additional jumper on the toggle. It's a puzzle for sure but it seems solvable.

I'm fresh out of magic. I don't see any way to do what you want to do here without more in the way of switching being employed. You have 2 poles on the toggle. Switching the middle pickup OOP will use up both poles of the toggle, using all 6 lugs. But you are also asking for the toggle to switch the middle pup in phase at position 1, and also to add the bridge pup at that position. I also can't see how to get all three pickups at position 3(with the middle OOP).

This might be doable using a 5-way superswitch, but I emphasize the "might". Still not sure you have enough switch poles even then.

[yldouright]

Thanks for your attention. Yes, you understood the text and drew the phase change circuit as I imagined it. Yes, the 5 way selector is a must and I guess I thought every Switchcraft 5 is a "superswitch" because I don't know what distinguishes it from lesser variety switches. Now that I know you understand my descriptions I feel more comfortable expounding the concept.

Okay, we are disregarding the volume and tone pots for the time being but we have an output jack which receives the signal and the ground on its two tabs. Remember, we have a common on the two pole switch AND the 5 way selector so we make the normal strat switch connections on one side of the switch. Now, when we plunge the switch, the phase is switched only on the middle pup. Other conduits can carry the B+N signals in phase depending on the 5 way position and how we connect it. The key to solving this puzzle is knowing only one leg change is required to take the M pup out of the engaged switch settings. The M is on for all the others, see below:

1. N+M+B

2. N+M OOP

3. M+N+B OOP

4. B+M OOP

5. B+N

If we can keep the M pup making signal in all switch positions and somehow short it out of the circuit ONLY when the selector is on position 5 and the crossover is engaged, we have the solution. As I talk through this, I am imagining how this might be done and I will try these and report. You reading should too so we can compare notes.

[newey]

Other conduits can carry the B+N signals in phase depending on the 5 way position and how we connect it. The key to solving this puzzle is knowing only one leg change is required to take the M pup out of the engaged switch settings. The M is on for all the others, see below:

The standard Strat 5-way lever switch is a 2P3T.

The Superswitch™ is a 4P5T.

Your concept may well be possible with a Superswitch*, I'd have to take a look at it, but it seems do-able. But with a standard Strat switch, you don't have enough poles. Your toggle switch will have both its poles switching the - and + of the mid pickup, you therefore can't also use that switch to switch between the 2 poles of the standard Strat 5-way.

But if you can procure/desire to use a Superswitch, then the OOP switching can be done on the Superswitch (2 poles), while the toggle switch switches between "regular Strat mode" and "B + M + N+ OOP" mode. Anyway, that's what I'm envisioning, still have to work out the particulars.

So, let us know if a Superswitch is viable.

*There are other switch options for 4P5T switching. Schaller makes various versions of its "Megaswitch", one of which is equivalent to the Superswitch.

[b4nj0]

Watch out for cavity depth with Super Switches. They are problematic with some Asian Leo types sporting low-dollar thin bodies, so it's worth checking out before hand. Also, I've heard tell of reliability issues with them, but I've used two Super Switches with Mike Richardson's design and had no problems.

e&oe...

[yldouright]

My kitchen smells like flux and I've nothing to show for it but coming back here gave me some hope. Using the switch convention described in the posts above:

A1:B1
A2:B2
A3:B3

let's move the crossover up from the 2nd row (which I've learned here is common) to A3:B3 and put the B+N in its place. Now, the switch should correctly change phase on the middle while leaving the B+N unmolested. I won't be able to try this for a few days but feel free to muse in my absence.

I know adding more parts can achieve this but for me the challenge is in getting this done with one switch. What if I hang a leg off the middle connection and have that short in position 5 of the selector. For convention, let's use selector to describe the 5 position switch and switch to describe the DPDT.

Thanks for pointing out the additional depth of the superswitch, I think the SE1203 we're working on here falls into the thinnish category. Unless I am mistaken I think I have a superswitch. Have a look at the schematic below with the crossover moved and then consider how to short the middle when you're on selector position 5 when the middle is always on when the switch is depressed.

[sumgai]

yldouright,



Hi, and to The NutzHouse!

---

The rest of the gang;



Why haven't any of you pointed out that tying the Bridge and Neck together (both the hot and ground leads) at the phase switch means that whenever he selects Bridge or Neck, he will get both pups sounding out, regardless of any other switching options or selector switch position?   He has stated that wants to select individual pups on occasion, yes?

Someone better give him a complete schematic or layout drawing soon, or he's gonna be wasting a whole lot of solder.....  I'm looking at you, angeIsBunny.





sumgai

[yldouright]

Why haven't any of you pointed out that tying the Bridge and Neck
together (both the hot and ground leads) at the phase switch means that
whenever he selects Bridge or Neck, he will get both pups sounding out, regardless of any other switching options or selector switch position?

Yes, that would be the case if the selector has no say in the matter but wouldn't I be able to select either of the two if the selector is correctly connected? BTW, I appreciate the welcome, thanks.

I believe the last diagram I posted above shows the switch effect on the pups. It is in aggregated form so some details are naturally missing but the simplification should allow us to examine the logic blocks better. The one below shows the different candidates for configuring the 5 way selector.

*P1 (B+N) and P5 (M) on the final switch on result can be interchanged as required.

[Deleted]

The problem im having with this design you want Neck and Middle OOP at some points 
for that i need to be able to control N+ and N- as well  as M+ and M- and on top of that i got to control B+ or B- if you tie B+ to the output and control the B- Ground to come in.

I cant get my head around it.

I can get what you want but not in the ORDER or the way you are thinking 
2P5T and a 2P2T (On/Off/On) 
N, NB, B, nB, n
and you bring the M in ever HOT or NOT or even OFF!
1) "N" with or maybe not "M" or "m"
1) "NB" with or maybe not "M" or "m"
1) "B" with or maybe not "M" or "m"
1) "nB" with or maybe not "M" or "m"
1) "n" with or maybe not "M" or "m"

N=Neck n=OOP Neck M=Middle m=OPP Middle and B=Bridge
i could even use CHEAP switching for that 5way for that

[yldouright]

@angelisbunny

Thanks for your attention. Only the M pup switches in my scheme to go m with the others. If we can keep it always on when the switch is depressed and have that middle shorted to ground when the selector is on position 5, we have the solution. Do you completely understand what I am representing in my schematics?

[Deleted]

im sorry i dont! 

mm i want to know where both ends of the pickups are at all times
Me, i dont care if one END hangs in some states
And if you are wounding what i am.. i Studied Electronics, Computers and Electrical's 
I dont do things the CORRECT ways, edit and change things to suit my needs
So i do tend to cheat my way around things



EasyEDA great for CIRCUIT diagram or Draw it in a Art Package i dont mind





Using a 4P5T (but can be done with a Cheap S-Type Strat Switch) and 2P2T (on/on/on) Toggle
[If on a S-Type Strat Switch, 1)N+ 2)B+ 3)N- 4)OUTPUT 5)GND 6)N- 7)N/C 8) N+]
2P2T Toggle Phases the Middle and brings it in to play
Where the 4P5T Flips between Neck and Bridge, Phasing the Neck in and out 




Oops ... Should be 2P2T (on/off/on)

[newey]

I believe the last diagram I posted above shows the switch effect on the pups. It is in aggregated form so some details are naturally missing but the simplification should allow us to examine the logic blocks better. The one below shows the different candidates for configuring the 5 way selector.

Once again, we need to clarify what type of switches you will be using before we can talk about a diagram. You have three diagrams; each one shows 2 poles with 5 lugs on each pole. This does not correspond with a standard Strat 5-way, nor with the 4-pole Superswitch.

I suppose it could represent the so-called "Half Superswitch" (a 2P5T switch)if I assume that for some reason you have omitted showing the common lugs.

Also, your diagrams don't show any output. Where does the signal go?

[sumgai]

'right,


As before, your first option isn't viable because it ties two pickups together forever at a single tie-point (a switch terminal). The second drawing is done the exact same way as Fender does it, along with most modders. The third is almost the same thing as the first one, excepting that you broke the link between the Mid and Bridge at position 2. Now they are no longer tied together for all time, but like Diagram 1, your desired combinations aren't gonna show up as you planned.

As per Mike Richardson and his famous mods, you're gonna need a 4PDT switch for this, along with a standard Superswitch.  That will require the least amount of parts to buy, and still get the job done.  The preferred switch is known as the Fender part they call the S-1 (or S1) - that's a push-push 4PDT jobbie, and if you're desiring a 'stealth' appearance, that's the one for you.  Available on eBay and other sources, if you're on friendly terms with Google, Bing, etc.  Outside of that 'stealth' thing, you can also find toggle switches (I mean, the kind you usually find on most guitars.  These are usually known as mini-toggle switches in the standard catalogs.) that do the same switching, probably for less money.  And if you already have an 'extra' hole in your scratchplate.

Or you can wait a few moments, and see if angeIsbunny comes up with a diagram that solves your puzzle.

---

BTW, to all,

In doing some research for this answer, I've discovered that seemingly all of our stored images of the Mike Richardson mod(s) have gone gunnysack.  PhotoBucket (or as stated more often in recent times - PhotoForgetAboutIt) now displays a fuzzy image that isn't readable, with a watermark proclaiming how PB is so neat.  Riiiiiiiiigggghhht.

Anyone having copies of these diagrams stored on your personal computers, please PM any Staff member with your potential contributions - PLEASE!  If you have knowledge of them being stored elsewhere on the web, in an eminently readable manner, let us know about that too, if you please.   Thank you.

sumgai

[yldouright]

As before, your first option isn't viable because it ties two pickups
together forever at a single tie-point (a switch terminal).

I've inadvertantly created some confusion when I tied the bridge and middle to the DPDT. To clarify, the middle stays in phase and the others switch when connecting them that way. I presented this because I believe the answer must lie in being able to short out of the output as a pair from the B+M+N and have the M alone somewhere. The 4PDT might be enough with only a standard 5 way, we'll see, but for now, I'm just exploring the concepts in logical blocks (sans detail).

Once again, we need to clarify what type of switches you will be using before we can talk about a diagram.

I am trying to repurpose the stock parts which are:

1 - DP5T (5 way Selector)

1 - DPDT (common switch)

3 - 250K log pots (under spec value)

I suppose it could represent the so-called "Half Superswitch" (a
2P5T switch) if I assume that for some reason you have omitted showing
the common lugs.

The diagram shows the common (output) as a node along the 5 position arc. You see it connected to the tip and ring output jack and grounded on the other side. When we introduce the volume and tone pots, the first lug of the volume pot will have the switch output and the pickups in phase. The first lug of the tone pots will connect to the 2nd lug on the volume pot. I omitted these because they are not required to explain what I want.

mm i want to know where both ends of the pickups are at all times.

The unswitched (always in phase) pups have the hot connected to a selector lug and its other wire to gnd. The switched (phase inverted) pup or pups connect to both sides of the switch common with a leg off the crossover grounded for the inversion. The simplified diagrams of the pups and selector show the results in the corresponding tables. I was under the impression that I could short my way to 10 pup combinations because logically, there are enough nodes to do that but the construction of the switch may be a physical limit. Thanks for the diagram, I see the many advantages conceptually of the Superswitch selector. My Selector has only two sets of 5 poles so I guess it's only half super. I configured the selector to output B+M+N in P3 so I have no middle pup only option. P1 and P5 don't change phase with the switch but P2-4 do. It's an improvement over the stock sound but I think the tone pot values need to go up. Someone above suggested that raising the tone pot values have a greater effect than raising the volume pot; why is this so?

When we describe a DPDT, does the switch alternate between the 1&2 or 2&3 on each side or rather 1&2 or 1&2&3 on each side?

[newey]

Someone above suggested that raising the tone pot values have a greater effect than raising the volume pot; why is this so?

.

I don't know that anyone suggested that. Both pots contribute, as they are wired in parallel. It is the parallel combination of their resistances that affects the overall tone, so changing the value of either (or both) will have an affect.

My Selector has only two sets of 5 poles so I guess it's only half super.

OK, correct, it's a (rare) 2P5T half-Superswitch as opposed to the regular Strat 2P3T. I'm still not clear from your highly-stylized schematic how the wiring to the second pole of the 5-way switch goes.

When we describe a DPDT, does the switch alternate between the 1&2 or 2&3 on each side or rather 1&2 or 1&2&3 on each side?

Refer to my DPDT diagram posted above. A2 and B2 are the common (or "pole") connections. Since the toggle lever operates in the opposite direction as the internal switch connections, with the lever "down" ("down" as per the diagram), then A2 is connected to A1, and B2 connects to B2. Flip the lever "up", and A2 connects to A3, B2 to B3.

This diagram shows the operation of a DPDT push/pull pot, but a DPDT toggle switch operates the same way if you ignore the push/pull aspect of it and just imagine a toggle lever instead. As noted, the lever position will be opposite of the lugs that are connected.

[yldouright]

I'm still not clear from your highly-stylized schematic how the wiring to the second pole of the 5-way switch goes.

In the three stylized selector examples I posted above, the wiring on the selector is described. You will note that there are two sets of lugs so I guess it's now confirmed that I am using a half super (DP5T) switch. Multi pup output only happens when the lug (throw position) has input on both sides. If a corresponding number position is not connected on either side, the pup(s) tied to that lug input will not output. I've double checked it and there are no mistakes. The short connections tie the pups to the output for a given selector position, follow the flow from the pups and it'll make sense. Assume all the not hot sides are ground in those diagrams.

Thanks for the clarification of the switch operation. I was puzzled when I read the comment about the pot value differences so I'm glad you confirmed what I suspected about their interacting. Looking at it from a purely resistive perspective:

A 250K volume and tone pot will have a net 125K value

A 400K volume and 100K tone pot will have a net value of 80K.

This seems to indicate tones become brighter as the pots move closer in value. The tone sweep spectrum however should be greater with a larger tone pot, no? I haven't put this on a scope but I suspect some asymmetry in the position values from an interactive impedance perspective depending on how the tone pots are wired. How do you see this?

[Deleted]

Well I think I'll step out of this design I think maybe too complex for me.

But I'll be watching for sure

[sumgai]

Oct 7, 2019 11:27:25 GMT -5 yldouright said:

..... This seems to indicate tones become brighter as the pots move closer in value.

Sorry but no. The total resistance between the two pots is the deciding factor here, vis-a-vis the brightness of the overall tone. Consider: a 1M and a 500K tone pot together will yield a 333K total resistance, a far cry from 125K combination (2ea 250K), yet they are even more disparate than your example. (Not by ratio, but by absolute resistance.)

On to that of which newey speaks....

Abbreviated ideas are fine, but when it comes to any discipline that requires multi-paragraphs of words to describe something, it is decidedly better to use diagrams.... full diagrams where any questions have arisen. In this case, while some of us can puzzle out your intent, others cannot easily do so. Please try to be more "inclusive" in your future diagrams, OK? And here I'm pointing specifically to your switching logic, the rest of the circuit (actual pickups, control pots, output jack) can all be safely assumed, as they will not affect how you attain your desired combinations.

One final note: in your "Truth Tables" shown above (and misquoted by newey in one instance), you have the OoP combs on Positions 2, 3, and 4. Coincidentally, you also have the Mid pup in each of those three combos. It therefore makes sense that we only put the Mid out of phase for those combos, and not mess around with the other two pups.  The resulting overall tonality will be exactly the same as if we had left the Mid alone, and reverse-phased either B or N, as needed. Let's keep things simple, shall we?

HTH




sumgai

[yldouright]

The total resistance between the two pots is the deciding factor here,
vis-a-vis the brightness of the overall tone. Consider: a 1M and a 500K
tone pot together will yield a 333K total resistance, a far cry from
125K combination (2ea 250K), yet they are even more disparate than your
example.

Understood, My comment was limited to when the two pots have an identical nominal value. You will note that it was 500k total in both examples but if we look at your example in extreme say a 1M pot with a 100K one, we get only 90K net resistance. My point was that the maximum value you can make out of any two pot combination is when they are perfectly matched. In that sense the comment was correct but I see how it could have been misinterpreted. Sorry about that.

The stylized schematics did require verbal elaboration as you say but once you get used to them, they really do tell the story better because they are easier to track and less prone to error. this is particularly true when you explore complex ways to do things in a subtractive manner. This is so because you start out with everything on and then short to ground what you don't need/want. If the participants don't want to see these block style diagrams again, I'll use only the conventional (ala Brejatone) diagrams in the future but I warn you, they're going to get very untidy and will be more difficult to trace what we're trying to achieve here.

Now that the details of the common switch operation have been explained to me, I am coming to the conclusion I cannot achieve what I want with the stock parts and any of the three selector wiring combinations posted above. Are there switches that operate the other way, 1&2 up and 1&2&3 when plunged? I suppose we could achieve this with a short on either side to get the whole blade (On-On-On). I haven't looked at this option but it might provide a route to victory here. As I stated, I'm currently with 8 tones and no middle pup only. I'm looking in parts bin for suitable pot replacements. I don't really want to put anything higher than 400K in there and the pot has to be of equivalent quality. The ones in this guitar are nice and quiet.

[Deleted]

www.wdmusic.com/media/images/products/DC5WAY.jpg

Cheap switch and a 2P2T On-Off-On and you can have your tone switching dreams just not in the right order.

As for volume and tone
Tone has a capacitor so xc
The volume is a pd 250k to ground but the easy route is zero or near damnit

Also most electronics maths is design for DC circuits when playing with AC or even Signals it's a different ball park

[yldouright]

Cheap switch and a 2P2T On-Off-On and you can have your tone switching dreams just not in the right order.

Okay, I'm listening, what can I get with a simple 5 way and one DPDT ON-OFF-ON switch and how does it table? By the way, Does the ON-OFF-ON switch differ from the one in the post by newey above? I don't know the distinction between it and the ON-ON-ON type. You probably noted my knowledge of analog circuits is weak, I'm more of a gate kind of guy. I treat AC like really slow DC

[newey]

I don't know what 'bunny has up his sleeve, but As I said earlier, I can "see" this if you had a 4PDT toggle (which do exist). Can't "see" it with just a DPDT.

Double Pole switch logic is as follows. I have already described a DPDT "On-On" switch above. Using the same designations for the lugs, a DPDT "On-Off-On" switch works exactly the same as my diagram, except it has a third, center position. In that position, the common lugs A2 and B2 do not connect to anything (internally connect, I mean).

Note that, by definition, the third "off" position is not designated as a separate "throw", the switch still only has 2 "throws", as the word "throw" by definition means a separate, independent set of connections is being made.

Now, as to a DPDT "On-On-On" (aka, a DPDT "Center On" switch), these are very useful to us in wiring guitars, but they operate somewhat bizarrely. In the "up" or "down" positions, the common lugs connect just as they do on my diagram above- A2 to A1, etc. But in the third, "Center On" position, Common lug A2 connects to the lower lug, A3, while the common lug B2 connects to B1, in a staggered arrangement.

Some years ago, long-time member Wolf speculated that there existed a DPDT On-On-On switch that operated as you described, where the common lugs, in the center position, connected to both upper and lower lugs- A2 connected to both A1 and A3, and B2 likewise. But, challenged to post a link to such a switch for sale anywhere in the world, wolf was unable to do so. In the end, after much going round and round, we determined that such a switch existed in theory only, unless one triess to DIY such a switch or have them custom-made.

[newey]

If the participants don't want to see these block style diagrams again, I'll use only the conventional (ala Brejatone) diagrams in the future but I warn you, they're going to get very untidy and will be more difficult to trace what we're trying to achieve here.

It's not the diagram of the 5-way that's the problem (now that you clarified that the common lugs are not shown, and that one goes to grd and the other to "hot" output). The problem is that we're trying to trace interactions of two different switches, and since the other switch is on a separate diagram, I have to scroll back and forth to try to follow it.

And I still can't decipher your 5-way switch in the previous schematic(ish) diagram. It doesn't represent the switch schematically or visually. Right next to the "B,M.N" script appear to be 3 switch levers- where do these come from?

[yldouright]

Thanks to all who've input their knowledge and experience here. I learned a few things and I'm grateful to have joined here. I think I'm going to live with the current 8 combination configuration on this guitar. I'm a bit disappointed that I couldn't figure out how to get the 10 out of the 11 possible S-S-S combinations when excluding serial connections with the half super switch but there are always other guitars. Namely, I'm about to start a 46 tone RGX-312 project. I started the thread about it here for those interested. I wired my selector for the NMB middle. The rest of the phase switching is described below:

[Deleted]

Oct 7, 2019 19:07:19 GMT -5 newey said:

I don't know what 'bunny has up his sleeve, but As I said earlier, I can "see" this if you had a 4PDT toggle (which do exist). Can't "see" it with just a DPDT.

I did Cook Up there i forgot M on its own...
BUT can find away around that with a bit of MAGIC
Sadly that MAGIC would Mean OPENING a S-Type Strat Switch and Cutting the TRACK top right.

B N b O G b n B
On 4P5T switch 

and the M on a 2P2T (On/Off/On)
Truth Table would be

(maybe Easier to just use a 4P5T switch) 


OR could use TWO S-Type Strat Switchs 



and i would like to see 'newey' too there are more way to skin a Cat, personnally i dont like doing it to live ones they scratch too much .. and we can always touch things up and move things around .
Debate makes people designs and problems show up that we dont see.

[yldouright]

@angelisbunny

In the spirit of exploration, here is my extreme logic table with switch positions for a three single coil guitar. The operation of the switches are as follows:
The volume PP pots select a serial or parallel connection with the middle pickup. The master tone PP pot reverses the phase on the middle pickup and the On-Off-On DPDT mini toggle shorts the B&N pickups on one side and the M pickup on the other. In the middle position, it is out of the circuit. The 5-way selector is wired to do B, BM, MBN, NM, N by default. The DPDT mini toggle has only one job and that is to short the BN on one side to be left with M and to short M on the other to get BN when on the P3 selector position.

B     M     N     S     VolB     VolN     Tθ     DPDT     Result
on                P1      0       0       0        0        B
      on          P3      0       0       0       -1        M
            on    P5      0       0       0        0        N
on    on          P2      0       0       0        0       BM II
on    on          P2      0       0       1        0       BM IIø
on    on          P2      1       0       1        0       BM Uø
on    on          P2      1       0       0        0       BM U
on          on    P3      0       0       0        1       BN II
on          on    P3      0       0       1        1       BN IIø
on          on    P3      1       0       1        1       BN Uø
on          on    P3      1       0       0        1       BN U
on    on    on    P3      0       0       0        0      II BM II MN II
on    on    on    P3      0       0       1        0      II BM II ø MN II
on    on    on    P3      0       1       0        0      II BM II MN U
on    on    on    P3      0       1       1        0      II BM II ø MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       1       0        0       U BM II MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       1       1        0       U BM II ø MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       0       0        0       U BM II MN II
on    on    on    P3      1       0       1        0       U BM II ø MN II
      on    on    P4      0       0       0        0       NM II
      on    on    P4      0       0       1        0       NM IIø
      on    on    P4      0       1       1        0       NM Uø
      on    on    P4      0       1       0        0       NM U

Legend
B= Bridge
M= Middle
N= Neck
S= 5-way selector
ø= Phase Reversed
U= Serial Connection
II= Parallel Connection
Tø= Master Tone and PP Phase Reverse
VolB= Bridge/Middle Volume and PP Serial/Parallel Control
VolN= Neck/Middle Volume and PP Serial/Parallel Control
DPDT= On-Off-On Mini Toggle that shorts BN or M

It should be noted that there are 31 potential pickup combinations. The 8 missing from those above are listed below:

B     M     N     S     VolB    VolN      ø      DPDT     Result

on    on    on    P3      0       0       1        0      II BM U ø MN II
on    on    on    P3      0       0       0        0      II BM U MN II
on    on    on    P3      0       1       1        0      II BM U ø MN U
on    on    on    P3      0       1       0        0      II BM U MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       1       1        0       U BM U ø MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       1       0        0       U BM U MN U
on    on    on    P3      1       0       1        0       U BM U ø MN II
on    on    on    P3      1       0       0        0       U BM U MN II

I couldn't figure a logic table that would include them with the switching devices in play, which are

 1 - Standard 5-way Selector
 2 - 250K Volume PP Pots
 1 - 250K Master Tone PP Pot
 1 - DPDT Mini Toggle (On-Off-On)

so a choice for a default connection between the two halves when BMN is active is required. I chose parallel but I believe either is viable. Do you suppose a wiring diagram can be produced to perform the functions described above with the switch positions intact?