Tarback pickups with 2 braided leads - Suggestions needed!

[midlifecrisis]

Hello fellow pickers and solderers

I acquired a cheap and old Japanese LP copy via e-bay. When I got it, it was badly water damaged: the neck was split and the ply body was delaminating and beyond recovery, so I scavenged the parts. Nice vintage knobs, Gotoh bridge, all good but not hugely remarkable.

The pickups are something else, however!

As far as I can determine from the research I have done, they are 1970's Gibson Dirty fingers. Prominent features include:

• Metal cased (Gold covering now wearing)
• 'tarbacked'
• single row of screws protruding through the potting
• 50mm E - e spacing
• Two braided wires with cloth covered core
• DC resistance of 'full' coil c. 16k (15.9 in one, 16.2 the other)
• DC resistance of 'split' coil c. 8.2k

So I have some questions and I'd like to pick your collective brains:

1.) Can anyone substantiate or disprove my identification?  
2.) Any observations on the sound of these things, both full on and split? - Would these be a good choice for Stoner rock?
3.) I'm thinking 500k pots: any different perspectives?
4.) Coil split direct to ground or via an RC network?
5.) I'm leery of putting both in one guitar on the basis that the neck pickup might be too hot - any recommendations for a neck humbucker (or P90 type thing) that would balance well with one of these in the bridge? I have a JB and a SD Jazz lying around as well as some MMK45's and Protomatic V's that came out other old Jap guitars.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has these or has tried them out .

Please be gentle with me - I've done a bit of modding but don't consider myself any sort of expert.

[newey]

midlifecrisis-

Hello and Welcome to G-Nutz2!

1.) Can anyone substantiate or disprove my identification?

I can't disprove it, but I have serious doubts. What was it that led you to conclude that these were Gibson Dirty Fingers pickups?

First off, the original Dirty Fingers (reissue, 4-conductor versions are now available from Gibson)didn't have a metal cover. And it had screw polepieces on both coils. Pictures I saw a'web didn't look "tarbacked", either.

More basically, if this is a Japanese LP clone, it is highly unlikely that the manufacturer would have been using actual Gibson pickups due to cost. Of course, the original pickups might have been replaced at some point, but the quality of the soldering job is usually a giveaway if that has happened.

2.) Any observations on the sound of these things, both full on and split? - Would these be a good choice for Stoner rock?.

These are very "hot" (i.e., overwound) HBs, so my guess would be they venture more into metal/shredding territory. But if they are in fact some unknown Japanese HBs, the only way to know may be to try them and see if they "float yer canoe".

3.) I'm thinking 500k pots: any different perspectives?

That would be the standard choice for 2 HB guitars, and I don't disagree. It's largely a matter of preference.

4.) Coil split direct to ground or via an RC network?

You can certainly experiment with an RC circuit, but the drop in output is usually the issue with splitting a HB, and an RC setup will only exacerbate that. Hot HBs, like these, are generally better for splitting than more vintage HBs, since the drop in output isn't so drastic (as a very general rule)

5.) I'm leery of putting both in one guitar on the basis that the neck pickup might be too hot - any recommendations for a neck humbucker (or P90 type thing) that would balance well with one of these in the bridge? I have a JB and a SD Jazz lying around as well as some MMK45's and Protomatic V's that came out other old Jap guitars.

Whatever these are, it sounds like they were meant to be a matched set, so I don't know why you would think the neck would be too hot.

[midlifecrisis]

Thanks Newey

...if this is a Japanese LP clone...
Definitely is - it was a bolt-on neck with an engraved neck-plate with 'Made in Japan' and 'Reinforced Steel Neck' on it. I couldn't read the serial number to date it, unfortunately, as it was badly corroded.

...., it is highly unlikely that the manufacturer would have been using actual Gibson pickups due to cost. 
Couldn't agree more.

Of course, the original pickups might have been replaced at some point, but the quality of the soldering job is usually a giveaway if that has happened. 
The guitar definitely has been modded at some point - I'm sure the Gotoh bridge wasn't original, there is a very non-contemporary coil split switch to which the lower DC resistance wires were soldered and the original pickup wires had been cut and soldered to the ends of the wires on which I measured the higher DC resistance.

Perhaps I should comment here that I got the body for a low price - I don't think the seller had any idea of what was inside. It was essentially a project that he never started.

...What was it that led you to conclude that these were Gibson Dirty Fingers pickups?... the original Dirty Fingers (reissue, 4-conductor versions are now available from Gibson) didn't have a metal cover. And it had screw polepieces on both coils. Pictures I saw a'web didn't look "tarbacked".

Here are pictures of the pickups I now have.

















IMO the insulation looks right for a 70's pickup - but I don't claim any expertise.

I did a google image search on "Tarback pickup" and looked for ones with two braided wires. I found this thread on the Gibson website: forum.gibson.com/topic/121856-is-this-a-tar-back-pickup/ The picture was very close in appearance to my pickups.

The first reply stated: 
They look like Gibson tar-backs...
 ...however, check the DC resistance. They can be Super Humbuckers or early Dirty Fingers. Both are tar-backs.

Of course this statement may be incorrect. One should not believe everything one reads on 't'internet.

There is a graphic pasted on this thread which I've uploaded, here for convenience. [img src="i.ibb.co/mX5wtJn/imageproxy.jpg" alt="" style="max-width:100%;" src=""]


It looks like Gibson 1970's promo copy. It shows the pickups and gives basic specs. The 16 K resistance on the Dirty Fingers matches what I measured on my pickups. So these are the grounds for the tentative conclusion to which I came.

Looking at the graphic again, (24 hours after the excitement has died down and after a sleep), I think you're spot on. The pic of the Dirty Fingers does show 2 sets of screws and no covers. A further web image search for Dirty fingers 1970's pickups shows they are exactly as you describe, 2 sets of screws, no covers, not tarbacked.

So if not Dirty Fingers, then what?

Interestingly the graphic covers 4 Humbuckers - 'The Original, Pat Appl For, Super Humbucking and Dirty Fingers.
The Pat Appl For spec quotes 16K resistance, which is clearly bonkers, whereas the Super Humbucking spec quotes 7.2K - so I wonder if these specs are swapped and these are Super Humbuckers? I thought Super's had lower DC resistance - around 7.8k Bridge and 5.4 k Neck.

Alternatively, they could be something else altogether. Some further digging on SG, LP and Seymour Duncan Forums has uncovered these nuggets: 
"There was a type of Tarback in LP Artisans, but it was MUCH hotter, and was called a Series VII." 

"Good luck finding the Series VII pickups ... These are epoxy-potted 16k humbuckers."

"These Series VII pickups were potted with a black, rubber-like material that fills the gold covers..."

"I need a gold (the more aged, the better) Gibson Series VII pickup for my LP Artisan.
These are epoxy-potted/tarback pickups that measure around 16K. These are not the average Super Humbucker tarbacks that measure around 8k (those are in the middle position of the Artisan)."

"I've recently purchased an amazing LP 25/50 which had the PUs replaced. I´m planning to put the original series VII back with the coil tap switch

The "series VII" were considered high output pickups (over 8K) filled with black epoxy and two wires. They were also used on other Gibson models but not in any other LP as far as I know.

So... In conclusion it seems probable that they are coil split Series VII not Dirty Fingers.


Finally : Whatever these are, it sounds like they were meant to be a matched set, so I don't know why you would think the neck would be too hot.

I'm more familiar with using lower output pickups on the neck - the DC resistance of both pickups is similar, so unless the magnets are different, they should be a similar output, correct? Of course I could set the neck lower...

[midlifecrisis]

Considering the series 7 option, the 25/50 pickups which were coil split are reported to be just over 8k DC resistance and the Artisan pickups, 165K and not coil split - yet they are both described as 'Series Vii"

Or there again, they could be "Dirty Fingers" Pickups from an E347.... ... which were gold covered and coil split.

reverb.com/uk/p/gibson-es-347-td-electric-guitar


 My brain is fried and it's nearly 1pm. 

[newey]

But what leads you to conclude that these are any type of actual Gibson pickups? Japanese manufacturers were putting out PAF (and other) clones from the early '70s onward (and many of these were very good, this is not meant to be disparaging)

The fact that the guitar was modded doesn't mean the pickups were changed, although they certainly might have been. If you could trace the manufacturer from any identifying info on the body/neck (Japanese guitars of that vintage were sold under numerous brand names, but there were only 3 or 4 major manufacturers by the 1970's), you might be able to identify that the pickups were the originals.

But, more basically, unless your goal is to exactly recreate an LP Artisan (or whatever), why are you concerned with their provenance? Try 'em, see if you like 'em. If not, there are many other options at different price points.

I'm more familiar with using lower output pickups on the neck - the DC resistance of both pickups is similar, so unless the magnets are different, they should be a similar output, correct? Of course I could set the neck lower...

Poor wording on my part, I meant only that both were overwound types more likely to match with each other than with a different, less "hot" pickup. The small difference in resistance you measured is probably well within the manufacturing tolerances. The two are likely identical.

Also, that potting job looks a bit homemade. If they were DIY potted by a prior owner, it was probably done because the pickup(s) were becoming microphonic- which the potting may or may not have fixed.

[midlifecrisis]

Hi Newey, Thanks for your further reply. I embrace your healthy scepticism.

I'm fairly certain that these are not stock: The splicing of the braided pup wires onto the original plastic coated wires and the added coil tap switch are the giveaways here.

Ultimately, unless I remove the covers and find 'T top' bobbins - which 'ain't happening - I suppose there is no way of 'proving' their provenance. I'm a bit of a 70's / 80's Japanese guitar fanboy to be honest (esp. Fernandes, Greco and Matsumoku) and have 6 or 7 in various stages of restoration / upgrade, so the thought they might be Jap copies isn't off-putting at all, it's just that they don't look like any Jap 70's / 80's pickup I've ever seen or researched. They are visually identical to the Gibson ES347 pickups I've seen on the web, and they do exactly match the specifications of those pickups, so "It looks like a Duck and has the specifications of a Duck". I think the balance of probability (which is the best one can do) is that it's a Duck, i.e. ex ES347 - or perhaps a copy of those pickups. 

As for "Try 'em and see if you like 'em" I think that's good advice and exactly what I'll do! 

At least the tentative identification gives me a starting point for controls, pot etc values and a wiring harness - How many pickups sound garbage because they are in the wrong circuit?

[newey]

Well, since they're HBs, they won't "quack" like a duck . . .

The splicing of the braided pup wires onto the original plastic coated wires and the added coil tap switch are the giveaways here.

Your photos don't really show that, but lengthening the wires might have been necessary to wire in the extra switch even if using the original pickups. But given that this is a project and not a restoration of a classic guitar, you'll just have to live with the uncertainty of never knowing exactly what have there.

You may be right that they're actual Gibby pups. The two braided wires coming off two different spots underneath the pup is the odd feature here, normally both would be run right next to each other, or put inside the same braided shield wire. That's probably the only real distinguishing characteristic.

[midlifecrisis]

Well, since they're HBs, they won't "quack" like a duck . . .  


I have an old Matsumoku Aria thru neck YS500, waiting for me to decide what to do with it, so I'll chuck em in and see....

[newey]

Old Japanese guitars can make nice projects, for those of us who can't quite manage to bankroll a '59 LP Goldtop. My first guitar, at age 12 or so, was a single pickup "Norma", which I think were made by either Kawai or Matsuoka. It wasn't a great instrument but I wish I could find another one like it for nostalgia's sake.

[ziggystardust723]

Hello Midlifecrisis,
So late, but I'm new on this Forum
(not in life: 66yo, playing guotar for +40y & winding PU's since 8y..)
- Dirty-Fingers or not etc, no matter
> but if the 2 pus are really close,
= I understane more than you Need an other kind in Neck,
- & the best, for myself, is what you said, but no P-90, but P-94: wich have the Same Size than an HB..
(& in Awg'Less': depending of which were done the 2Coils of the Bridge pu but for 16k, I think Awg44 minimum..
> It would say to get a Neck with Awg45: for Less Presence..)
- Bye, & Good Luck.!
- Ziggy (France, 20h07)