julian
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Post by julian on Nov 6, 2019 21:35:50 GMT -5
Hi, I'm here in a recommendation. I'm going to wire 3 single coil pickups with a 3 position on/off/on DPDT for each one. This will give: on in phase / off / on out of phase.
My question is: with this setup is it possible to link the pickups in series? If so could anyone provide a diagram please? If not why not (just for my information).
The idea behind this is to duplicate the functions of the Red Special wiring (1 on/off switch, 1 phase switch for each pickup, pickups in series) using only 1 switch per pickup instead of 2.
If it can't be done this way I'll just go with the 2 switch per PU configuration.
I wired my Strat in the early 1980s with 1 on/off/on DPDT for each PU as above but the PUs were in parallel.
Please don't reply with an opinion or anything not directly related to the question, thank you.
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Post by thetragichero on Nov 6, 2019 22:03:48 GMT -5
1. i have lots of opinions and digressions. i feel they make my interactions more interesting
2. yes i believe that this is possible. i will try to sketch up something shortly
3. hey, welcome to the nutz house!
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Post by newey on Nov 6, 2019 23:09:51 GMT -5
A couple of our founding members solved this problem a long time ago. Unfortunately, the images in the old thread are now blocked and need to be restored. But you can still make out the idea. Read through the entire thread, but what you want is at the very end, from ChrisK. However, to do this with series wiring, you will need DPDT On-On-On switches, not the On-Off-Ons you have now. This is because in series wiring, unused coils need to be bypassed rather than just disconnected- the middle "off" position breaks the series "chain". Also be aware that ChrisK's design leaves unused coils "hanging from hot"- this might, in theory, add some noise, and we try to avoid schemes with hanging coils for that reason. Here, however, the hanging coils could only be avoided by using 4PDT switches, as Unk's design did, which are expensive and larger, potentially meaning fitment problems. But anyway, here's your answer: guitarnuts2.proboards.com/thread/3160/brian-trilogy
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Post by thetragichero on Nov 6, 2019 23:23:03 GMT -5
i was thinking we'd need some sort of connection in the center position. even drew an extra pole and was still scratching my head your search-fu is better than mine, sir!
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Post by sumgai on Nov 7, 2019 2:15:58 GMT -5
julian,
Hi, and to The NutzHouse!
Long departed member Unklmickey concocted the basics for this setup, about 10 years ago. I've merely adapted it to your desires.
In this drawing, you'll find that a common switch (on-on-on) is used to both turn on or off the pup, and to reverse its phase. As noted by newey above, we actually short a pickup to turn it off, in order that continuity is maintained for the remaining pups. That means that you have (Bonus!) an All-Off position.... good for shutting everything off during breaks from jamming, etc.
This arrangement works because of the internal connections found in this particular switch. On my diagram, they are shown in red - you (the user) don't do anything else, those connections are already built in. If you trace out the signal path, you'll find a complete series signal chain from ground to Output, no matter which switch is thrown to whatever position. The switch is available from various sources, so do some comparison shopping, but here's one source that's got a pretty good reputation: guitarelectronics.com/double-pole-on-on-on-bat-handle-mini-switch-chrome/
Any questions?
HTH
sumgai
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Post by JohnH on Nov 7, 2019 15:20:36 GMT -5
julian,
Hi, and to The NutzHouse!
Long departed member Unklmickey concocted the basics for this setup, about 10 years ago. I've merely adapted it to your desires.
In this drawing, you'll find that a common switch (on-on-on) is used to both turn on or off the pup, and to reverse its phase. As noted by newey above, we actually short a pickup to turn it off, in order that continuity is maintained for the remaining pups. That means that you have (Bonus!) an All-Off position.... good for shutting everything off during breaks from jamming, etc.
This arrangement works because of the internal connections found in this particular switch. On my diagram, they are shown in red - you (the user) don't do anything else, those connections are already built in. If you trace out the signal path, you'll find a complete series signal chain from ground to Output, no matter which switch is thrown to whatever position. The switch is available from various sources, so do some comparison shopping, but here's one source that's got a pretty good reputation: guitarelectronics.com/double-pole-on-on-on-bat-handle-mini-switch-chrome/
Any questions?
HTH
sumgai
That is the kind on neat idea that makes me smile!
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Post by sumgai on Nov 7, 2019 18:44:08 GMT -5
Thanks, John!! But it really was Unk that did the yeoman's work, I just dressed it up a bit. sumgai
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 7, 2019 21:54:26 GMT -5
Alright! 'Tis that whereof I'm speaking. Thank you very much. I should be able to find the switches.
I put this question up somewhere else a d all I got was some fellow telling me he thought 3 phase switches was too much, one wound be enough, referred me to this site and said most here would probably agree with him.
Thanks again. By the way, have you noticed that swiching phase on a single coil, used by itself, changes its tone?
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Post by newey on Nov 7, 2019 22:24:52 GMT -5
sumgai: Credit where due, the DPDT version was ChrisK's idea. Unklmickey had the 4PDT version which avoided the hanging coil issues. And, Trage- No search fu involved. Institutional memory, been hanging out for a while now . . .
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Post by sumgai on Nov 8, 2019 0:53:18 GMT -5
newey, I said that "Unk concocted the basics", not "Unk designed this particular method". Besides, it was in Unk's thread that the whole discussion took place (wherein he went through some contorted gyrations, for sure). Forgive me for mixing them up, but then again, every image in both threads is pretty much unreadable, so I took a flyer of a guess, and your institutional memory says I lost.
julian, I put this question up somewhere else a d all I got was some fellow telling me he thought 3 phase switches was too much, one wound be enough, referred me to this site and said most here would probably agree with him. Yeah, sounds about par for the course. Not that I'm tooting the NutzHorn, but there are lot of "visitors" here that don't register, but they're reading/soaking up our material, to be sure. And we do agree with referrer, phase switching is needed only on X-1 number of pickups. For whatever reason, Brian May chose to have all three pups switchable (for OoP), perhaps it was to keep thing symmetrical, I dunno. Nope, ain't gonna happen. What we call "reverse phase" is a method of referring to the polarity of two signals compared to each other. Seemingly obviously, one single-coil pickup can't generate two dissimilar signals at the same time, hence....
HTH
sumgai
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 8, 2019 2:25:50 GMT -5
Well actually, yes it does. I have a phase reverse on my neck single coil. Out of phase is noticeably brighter with a little less lows. I was told this is of how the coils' own capacitance affects the signal according to which direction the current flows, outside in or Inside out. It's something I use quite a lot when playing on only that pickup.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 8, 2019 2:37:04 GMT -5
I was told this is of how the coils' own capacitance affects the signal according to which direction the current flows, outside in or Inside out. Did you read that on the internet?
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 8, 2019 2:44:50 GMT -5
I put this question up somewhere else a d all I got was some fellow telling me he thought 3 phase switches was too much, one wound be enough, referred me to this site and said most here would probably agree with him. It's more convenient to have phase switches for all three pickups but you can get by with just two. If you have only one phase switch there will be one pair of pickups you can select that won't be able to be out of phase with each other.
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 8, 2019 4:59:39 GMT -5
ReTread - it's a subtle but noticeable change in tone, sounds as though the frequency band of the pickup moves into a slightly higher range. The capacitance explanation was given by someone at Stewmac's technical support. Anyone here with phase switched singles? Let us know if you hear a difference. I'll write to Seymour Duncan and see what they say about it.
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Post by JohnH on Nov 8, 2019 5:34:44 GMT -5
My understanding is that reversing the phase of one pickup on it's own could make a difference, if there is a significant amount of acoustic feedback from the amp back to the strings. This happens at high volume, but also could occur at moderate volume if there is high gain or close proximity. It's also much greater with hollow body guitars and so phase reverse can be a useful feature on acoustic amls to try to control feedback.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 8, 2019 12:52:48 GMT -5
Acoustically (not the original intent of the question), yes, reversing the phase of the pickup could have a noticible (and perhaps positive) effect, i.e. reducing feedback. Electrically, someone's been drinking the Flavor-Aid again.....
My suggestion would be to not bother the nice folks at Stew-mac, they have enough to do as it is. And for Pete's sake, you won't find an Electrical Engineer on their staff anyways, so this might be the right time for the obligatory xckd cartoon:
sumgai
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 9, 2019 0:47:11 GMT -5
Well, it's definitely different tone which I find useful for rhythm when I want a little less lows an a bit more top. As to why it happens, I've put that question to the people at Seymour Duncan and am waiting for a reply. If that's not enough pickup cred for you, perhaps I'll ask Lindy Fralin. Yeah, helk with it, I'll ask every pickup Maher I can think of.
Not that the actual reason is so important to me beyond curiosity. Guys saying "no! Never happen for this reason yabada that reason babada" but not bothered to do any actual listening? Mhm...
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 9, 2019 1:41:53 GMT -5
Well, it's definitely different tone which I find useful for rhythm when I want a little less lows an a bit more top. As to why it happens, I've put that question to the people at Seymour Duncan and am waiting for a reply. If that's not enough pickup cred for you, perhaps I'll ask Lindy Fralin. Yeah, helk with it, I'll ask every pickup Maher I can think of.Not that the actual reason is so important to me beyond curiosity. Guys saying "no! Never happen for this reason yabada that reason babada" but not bothered to do any actual listening? Mhm... If you have the time to post all the responses you get, that might make for some interesting reading. I reckon some of them will line up quite well with the explanation JohnH provided. Some of them might be quite wrong. But I doubt any of them will be as hilarious as the explanation you got from Stewmac's technical support.
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 9, 2019 11:04:46 GMT -5
Can you explain it then?
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Post by julian on Nov 9, 2019 11:08:20 GMT -5
It's there on a clean tone as well as with overdrive, at not particularly high volume either, solid body guitar. Which doesn't quite tick all John H's conditions.
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 9, 2019 11:10:02 GMT -5
Which are as he understands it.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 9, 2019 11:53:33 GMT -5
julian,
It is sad when the world of scientists and engineers must engage with those who are curious, but are not steeped in the pool of knowledge regarding any given non-trivel subject matter. I've learned this, both within and outside of my craft over the course of 70 years of life, the last 55 of them as a budding engineer, and then a fully degreed Electrical Engineer. As a young hot-head, I would've told you to bugger off, you are ignorant, and left with a smug look on my face. Now...
Now I don't do those kinds of things anymore, I just sit back and smile politely, and let you figure it out on your own. But, and this is the good part, I do have an explanation for why you think you're hearing different tones from each coil. In fact, I've got two of them, both of them both plausible and provable.
First, the standard explanation is that the two coils are set at different points along the string(s). For that reason alone it would seem that the two separate coils, focusing their respective magnetic fields at different nodal points, would sound different. That's true, and provable. But the difference in viewpoints running through this thread has been, and will continue to be, that the audible difference to a listener is too slight to be worth the trouble.
Notice that when we have two (or more) Humbuckers in a circuit, then it makes sense to cut one coil or the other, when used in combinations between two widely separate mountings. But even there, Neck or Bridge, we don't espouse cutting to a single coil for just one pup by itself. There may be a slight difference in tone when doing so, but again, as soon as there are other sounds in the room, any such detectable difference is indiscernable, no matter how hard one might try to hear it. At volume levels above an unamplified acoustic guitar, no golden ears have yet shown up to prove my statement wrong.
That's Explanation One, now here's Two:
In many, like about 99%, if not most pups, the two coils simply are not wound exactly the same - one is gonna be "hotter" or "smoother" than the other, or some other descriptor. It would take a very, very large investment in equipment to come close to making every coil the exact same as the previous one to come off the line. (Hand wound? Good luck with that one.) Big companies get close, but at the end of the day, they know just one thing: they can ship what works for the vast majority of players. To make sales (and profits), they don't have to be perfect, just good enough.
Which means, some pickups are going to be very noticibly different when comparing coils, one to the other. But the fraction of such pups found on the market are remarkably few, the expectable level of quality control is that good. In fact, companies have gone out of their way to call out the fact that they are intentionally using different coils inside of some of their models. They have their reasons for doing so, why is not a matter under discussion at this time.
tl;dr:
It can happen that a pickup has two entirely different coils under its sheild, and would produce, provably, different tonal results. Also, placing a pup under a string, with differently focused magnetic fields might produce different results. But the test there would be to simply reverse the pup in its mounting, and see what happens. That's to eliminate the differing coils aspect of things, you understand.
One final thought: Perfect Is The Enemy Of Good Enough. That applies to just about everything in life, not just pickups and/or guitars. You're welcome. HTH
sumgai
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Post by newey on Nov 9, 2019 14:24:15 GMT -5
sg-
Julian is talking about reversing the phase of a SC pickup when it is the only pickup in the circuit, not 2 coils. And JohnH has provided a viable acoustic explanation for such a phenomenon.
Seems to me I once heard a different acoustic explanation for the purported difference in sound; this was that the difference was due to the speaker cone moving in the opposite direction. But that didn't make much sense to me either.
But as to an electrical difference, hard to see how there would or could be any difference.
As I often say:
"Double-blind, peer-reviewed study, or it didn't happen!"
IOW, trying to remove subjectivity under such circumstances is challenging. We would need a bigger sample size than one set of ears, the group would need to consistently report that they heard a difference, at a level of statistical significance. And, we would also need to remove the possibility of subconsciously-variable differences in picking technique from one test to the other, using some automated strum/picking device.
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Post by sumgai on Nov 9, 2019 18:06:30 GMT -5
julian, It would seem that in my last epistle, I missed the point.... entirely. You asked about a single coil being hooked up in reverse, and getting a different tone. I went on about two coils, and the vanishingly small audible difference between the two, when played in a live environment. Sigh. Let me try again, attempting to keep on point... In any circuit known to man, novice or engineer, there must be a complete circuit to carry current from one place to another, and back again. If the circuit is broken, there's no "action", so to speak. So let's look at the basic building blocks of a circuit, shall we? First, we have two methods of conducting current around the circuit, and it's important to differentiate between them. In one method, the current always flows in the same direction, which is known as Direct Current, or DC. The other method is where the current reverses the direction of flow, and usually at a steady periodic rate - this is known as Alternating Current, or AC. The important thing to know here is that AC means, by definition, that current flows at a changing rate of time, first from negative to positive, then from positive to negative. This is important, so remember it... please. Now, in order to build a circuit, we need components. To keep things simple, we'll use a guitar pickup as the source of current, and that puts us in the AC realm of methods (frequency is just another word for AC). Next we'll need a resistor to imitate the Vol pot, and an output jack. Those are the basics of what an electric guitar needs in order for us to hear it in operation, all else is just added for beneficial effect(s). So the pickup is generating current because the magnetic field is sensing changes within it, due to string vibrations, right? And that generated current "flows" out to the resistor, and on to the output jack, yes? And the so-called "ground" terminal of that jack is also hooked up to the other end of the pickup, yes? That's a complete circuit. (A drawing should not be necessary at this point.) I'm going to ask you a question here, in several parts.... what would happen if you took anyone of the three components, and hooked them up backwards? Would the output jack being hooked up backwards have any effect on the flow of current? How about the resistor, any change to the current if that's backwards? And finally, let's ask that same question of the pickup, shall we? In short, if a component has only two leads, it's: A) capable of being used in a circuit; and B) incapable of knowing that it's "backwards" or "forwards" in a circuit. Yes, that's an extreme simplification, but if we don't start with the basics and get them down correctly, then we'll be in trouble all the way down the line... until someone kindly takes us aside and gives us the straight skinny. What I'm saying here is that yes, when many other factors are considered, and all of them outside of the scope of the pickup itself, then we might perceive a difference in how the pup works in forwards or backwards fashion. But at the heart of the debate is this factoid: in order to make the difference audible, we needed to add a whopping big bunch of outside stuff, stuff which was not part of the basic circuit. And by that I'm now speaking of acoustic properties of both the guitar (plus the amp/speaker) and the room. Feedback can also play a part, but that gets particularly hoary, so we can save that for later. tl;dr: In all of this discussion, the fact remains that regardless of which way a pickup is hooked up, it doesn't change the function, nor the human perception of that function - only outside factors can do that. The question for you is actually this: "Can I control those outside factors, and if so, can I take advantage of such?" Because trust me on this, capacitance has no business being brought into the discussion, it's a total non-starter. Ditto for inductance and resistance, they don't play a part either. The guitar itself? Nope. Not unless it can interact forcefully with the room's acoustic properties to cause feedback - that'll surely demand that something be done to reduce/eliminate it any such - throwing a "phase" switch might do that very thing, but it's not a guarantee, only a chance. Up until now, I've been as nice as I can be, given the environment. But at this point I need to go one step further, which takes me closer to the realm of being a Dick. Like newey said above, you need to stop confirming your own biases. Instead you need to either conduct your own research, or find and point out to us the findings of preferably credible other researchers. To that end, only a double-blind test will suffice. newey's conditions above were simple, and the bit about picking was over-thought out. a) A sample size of participants/listeners must contain at least 25 persons who are not musicians in any way, and at least 25 musicians of any stripe (no matter what instrument they play). This latter group will be more attuned to subtle differences in tonality; b) The sample testing rate must be over the course of several days, giving each participant between 2 and 5 test routines; c) To avoid any picking differences, we should embrace such, and use no less than 5 different guitarists, along with 5 different guitars (these are minimums, the number can increase in the same ratio to listeners). Of course, they will not know how the pickup is wired, they will be instructed to merely "flick the switch", and confirm to the test proctor that it is indeed either up or down;
d) At least one guitar will have an ineffective switch to act as a control, and two of the remaining four will be wired as "up is backwards". Only the test coordinator will know which guitar is wired in which manner. As before, this is founded on the number of players;
e) At least 10 test proctors are necessary, and they will never know which guitar is wired in which manner; f) The test coordinator will write scripts to be used by the proctors that will incorporate, at a minimum, a series of single note string-strikes, played at the players' choice of speed, covering all six strings, and at the open, 3rd and 7th frets. Additionally, the script will also call for a single-note melody line to be played, either in some cases to be determined by the player, or to be taken from a phrase out of one or more known hit songs. Said songs can be recent or historical, at the coordinator's discretion;
g) At no time will any effects be applied to the sounding note, said notes must be as clean as possible in order to not disguise or cover any subtleties;
h) The test coordinator will be on hand at all times to ensure that the test proctors are giving explicit instructions (from the script) to each player. During any repeat testing, no proctor should be paired again with the same player and the same listeners;
i) As time is not to be wasted wantonly, testing at multiple sites and at the same time is encouraged. However, each site should have subsantially the same acoustic properties, i.e. the amount of the room's echo, etc.;
j) Other instructions/requirements may follow, as I think of them.
It is a known fact in the world of research that this is the only acceptable method of separating fact from fiction, aka confirmation bias. I hope it helps put things in perspective for you.
HTH
sumgai
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 10, 2019 2:17:59 GMT -5
Patronising and long winded, and somewhere in there a succinct characterisation.
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Post by julian on Nov 10, 2019 2:28:26 GMT -5
In any case I got an answer to my original question pretty early on. In reference to my other observation It appears attempting to assert intellectual superiority over trying it out yourself is the order of the day.
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Post by reTrEaD on Nov 10, 2019 12:10:45 GMT -5
Patronising and long winded, and somewhere in there a succinct characterisation. In any case I got an answer to my original question pretty early on. In reference to my other observation It appears attempting to assert intellectual superiority over trying it out yourself is the order of the day. Appearances can be deceiving. You've displayed an aversion to hearing anything that doesn't agree with your beliefs. The first clue was the final sentence in your OP. The next was the tendency to toss two or three posts in a row onto the thread. You might want to read and digest what others have posted, then take some time to formulate a measured response rather than just reacting. Yes it's good that we were able to convey a wiring scheme that suits your needs. But it doesn't seem as if we've be able to educate you on other matters. I apologize for not following up on some of your other 'questions'. I'll do that in a moment. But first I'll correct one of your faulty assumptions. You assume others haven't listened to and evaluated the sound of one pickup, comparing the normal to out of phase connection of that pickup. That's a false assumption, at least in my case. From what I've experienced, I could definitely hear the click caused by the switching transient, but was unable to discern any meaningful difference in tone. I think it's very likely others have had similar experiences. It's there on a clean tone as well as with overdrive, at not particularly high volume either, solid body guitar. Which doesn't quite tick all John H's conditions. Which are as he understands it. There isn't a plausible explanation for a change in polarity of the electrical signal from one pickup having a tonal affect on the electrical signal in the amplifier. The change in capacitance between windings explanation you got (and were willing to accept) was total and utter nonsense. The interwinding capacitance simply wont change because of the polarity of the connections. Any difference you hear might exist in the effect of the entire system. Either from the sound generated by the speaker affecting the movement of the strings or creating vibration on the body of the guitar causing the pickup to move slightly in relationship to the strings. This would occur at very high volume levels. Also, it's possible that if your amp is set at such a low volume that it's at a similar level to the sound you're hearing from the strings, flipping the phase of the signal from the amp could cause a perceivable difference, as there would be a different relationship between the sound from the strings and the sound from the amp, reaching your ear. Unless you're playing at very high levels where the sound from the amp is having an appreciable affect on the strings and/or body of the guitar, or at such low levels that the sound of the strings is similar in volume to the sound from the speaker, it's unlikely you'll hear any difference when changing the polarity of the pickup. The difference you hear could be imagined. As I said before, We welcome you to post any explanations offered by the pickup manufactures you contact. We'd be glad to examine their answers to determine if they're based on science or a similar kind of nonsense you got from StewMac.
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Post by thetragichero on Nov 10, 2019 13:28:11 GMT -5
stewmac doesn't seem to like my comments on their Facebook ads peddling several dollar tone capacitors/rc filter networks. they certainly have creative ad copy
what i haven't seen lately that was everywhere when i first started going under the hood (pickguard) was cryogenic treated EVERYTHING. pickups. capacitors. output jacks. etc. made for interesting reads but even just getting my feet wet my bs alarm bells were ringing
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Nov 10, 2019 15:15:30 GMT -5
Hi julian,
If it was the experience you had with one particular guitar, couldn't it be that your recollection of the pickup and how the switching worked is wrong? Aren't we dealing with a neck humbucker with stacked coils? Flipping the phase of the top coil could possibly explain the perceived change in tone. If you still have that guitar available you could check whether out of phase is humbucking & quiet in contrast to in phase which is noisy.
cheers
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julian
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Post by julian on Nov 11, 2019 23:43:45 GMT -5
Moderator,
I merely put that explanation forward as one that had been given to me and was looking to find out whether that was true or otherwise.( I.e. learn something ). I don't see how you concluded that I was willing to accept it. So looks like assumptions on both sides.
I understand that psychologically we can hear, see, or feel things that aren't there, no matter how objective we may think we are and regardless of "education". For that reason I'm quite skeptical of claims made for things like tone caps, finishes, "vintage" anything with regard to guitars. So, I'm quite willing to accept that I could in this instance be hearing something that's not there.
What would have worked better would be someone saying "I tried it and there's no difference, are you sure about this?". I'd have plugged in and checked and that would have been the end of it if it actually didn't sound different. If it did I'd still want to find out why.
An essay / lecture beginning with words to the effect of "oh the burden of clever people having to try and enlighten the ignorant" and assuming I don't know how to set up a text procedure is patronising.
I'm surprised something which isn't particularly important to me beyond finding out by it doesn't or does happen has triggered such an outpouring.
To everyone else, I consider this over and done with but also realise there may be someone who absolutely has to have the last word, so have at it, get it off your chest whoever you are.
Moving on, what's the "novice solder flinger" tag about? Is there a hierarchy here? How many ranks are there and how would one move up the ladder?
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