Looking for a new wiring

[ourclarioncall]

I have a simple circuit going at the moment .

2 single coils with 2 SPDT switches , wired straight to output jack with no pots, giving me 4 sounds: N, B, N+B, NxB

but now I would like to add phase switches for both Neck and Bridge

I’ve had a good look around the internet and on this site but struggling to find anything like this

Anyone point me in the right direction ? Cheers

[thetragichero]

you'll only need to add one phase switch so maybe add a push/pull volume pot that flips the phase of one of the pickups?
the way you'd want to implement it would be first in line from the pickup and then onto the remainder of your switching
if you suss up a diagram (cut and paste in paint, pen and paper, etc) we'll gladly check it for ya before getting your iron hot

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 20, 2019 18:26:06 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

you'll only need to add one phase switch so maybe add a push/pull volume pot that flips the phase of one of the pickups?
the way you'd want to implement it would be first in line from the pickup and then onto the remainder of your switching
if you suss up a diagram (cut and paste in paint, pen and paper, etc) we'll gladly check it for ya before getting your iron hot

I don’t have a push pull pot but do have SPDT on-on and DPDT on-on toggle switches. I’m assuming I would need a DPDT as the wiring is like an X shape.

Is it possible to have two phase switches ? One did each pickup? I think it would help me learn better if I did it with two and then went to one and understood why it works with just one


I will see if i can figure something out . It’s good to struggle a little , it helps me grow and use my brain 😁

[thetragichero]

dpdt on-on is what's needed
it's possible to have two phase switches but also redundant
if both phase switches are pulled, the pickups are back in phase again

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 20, 2019 19:22:41 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

dpdt on-on is what's needed
it's possible to have two phase switches but also redundant
if both phase switches are pulled, the pickups are back in phase again

Ok

I just realised that you have to have two pickups on at the same time to get an out of phase sound

So that’s why I only need one switch ? Because it doesn’t matter if I wire the phase switch to the neck or the bridge , I will still get the same sound ?

In my head I was thinking that if I have neck and bridge on in parallel then switch the neck pickup out of phase then the neck pickup would produce a different sound but I would still get the normal sound from the bridge. And vice verse , if I switched the bridge pickup out of phase , it would change but the neck would stay the same. If that doesn’t make sense , then to simplify what I’m saying , I was thinking that if I had a phase switch for both pickups it would give me TWO different sounds, but now I realise it doesn’t matter which pickup you put out of phase your still going to get the same sound right ?

This video clarified it very well

[thetragichero]

you got it

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 20, 2019 19:38:56 GMT -5 thetragichero said:

you got it

This is very interesting 🤔

Which one of of Brian mays pickups was actually RWRP , middle or bridge

Just wondering if there is a scenario where each pickup having it’s own phase switch might be handy when it comes to hum cancelling ?

[ashcatlt]

So there’s this thing, and I think I heard (read) it from Brian May himself, where if you’re really rocking through a loud amp and holding a note that’s like sustaining and feeding back, and you flip the phase switch for the (single) pickup through which you’re playing, it can force the feedback to break to a harmonic so that it goes “oooooo[flip]eeeeee” It makes some sense that this could work, but it’s pretty much the only reason that flipping phase on a single pickup would make a noticeable difference. If you’re into that kind of thing, though, it might be an argument for having a phase switch on each pickup even if just one is enough for the typical OoP combination sound.

[reTrEaD]

Dec 20, 2019 19:51:55 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Which one of of Brian mays pickups was actually RWRP , middle or bridge

If this article is correct, both the neck and bridge pickups were opposite of the 'normal' south-up magnetic polarity. The middle pickup was south-up, which would make it the odd-man-out.

If this is true, hum-canceling would occur in the following combinations:
Bridge and Middle
Middle and Neck
Bridge and Neck (out-of-phase)

Dec 20, 2019 19:51:55 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Just wondering if there is a scenario where each pickup having it’s own phase switch might be handy when it comes to hum cancelling ?

Phase switches on both pickups won't change anything regarding hum-canceling.

If two pickups have the same winding direction and magnetic polarity, they will only hum-cancel when they are out-of-phase.

If one pickup has a different winding direction and magnetic polarity than the other, they will only hum cancel when they are in-phase.

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 20, 2019 22:11:28 GMT -5 ashcatlt said:

So there’s this thing, and I think I heard (read) it from Brian May himself, where if you’re really rocking through a loud amp and holding a note that’s like sustaining and feeding back, and you flip the phase switch for the (single) pickup through which you’re playing, it can force the feedback to break to a harmonic so that it goes “oooooo[flip]eeeeee” It makes some sense that this could work, but it’s pretty much the only reason that flipping phase on a single pickup would make a noticeable difference. If you’re into that kind of thing, though, it might be an argument for having a phase switch on each pickup even if just one is enough for the typical OoP combination sound.

I spent a bit of time tonight reading up on half out of phase.

I have a question .

We just discussed (apart from the oooeee harmonic) that there is no need to have a phase switch on both pickups as it doesn’t matter which one you flick your still going to get the same sound

But what about half out of phase ?

Say I had 2 half out of phase switch’s , one for each pickup , would it still be the case that it doesn’t matter which switch I flip , ill still get the same sound ? Or will it be the case that depending on which switch I flip , I will get for example 75% neck pup and 25% bridge ? And vice versa

Again just to clarify , I’m asking if

In OOP ..... two switches will only give me one sound (ignoring oooeee)

In HOOP..... two switches will give me two unique sounds ?

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 21, 2019 10:12:47 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 20, 2019 19:51:55 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Which one of of Brian mays pickups was actually RWRP , middle or bridge

If this article is correct, both the neck and bridge pickups were opposite of the 'normal' south-up magnetic polarity. The middle pickup was south-up, which would make it the odd-man-out.

If this is true, hum-canceling would occur in the following combinations:
Bridge and Middle
Middle and Neck
Bridge and Neck (out-of-phase)

This article seems to settle it
It sounds like your right , it was originally the middle that was made to be be RWRP, but replica builders Brian has worked with have chosen to make the bridge RWRP so that Brian’s 2 favourite sounds are hum cancelling

brianmay.com/experts/expjan07.html

[reTrEaD]

Dec 21, 2019 21:34:05 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

In HOOP..... two switches will give me two unique sounds ?

Yes, Half out-of-phase will give somewhat different tones, depending on which pickup has the capacitor.

But you'll run into difficulty implementing half out-of-phase in a configuration that has the two pickups in parallel in one setting and in series in another.

To couple a pickup half out-of-phase in parallel, you would have a capacitor in series with the out-of-phase pickup.

To couple a pickup half out-of-phase in series, you would have a capacitor in parallel with the out-of-phase pickup.

[newey]

To couple a pickup half out-of-phase in parallel, you would have a capacitor in series with the out-of-phase pickup.

To couple a pickup half out-of-phase in series, you would have a capacitor in parallel with the out-of-phase pickup.

Seems like one could do this, although it gets fairly complex for just a phase switch, by using a 4PDT On-On to switch the phase and switch the cap from series to parallel at the same time- but then this would have t be switched depending on the series/parallel setting . ..Hmmm

[ourclarioncall]

yeah, I’m probably way out of my depth here. From looking at diagrams i think i get the just of OoP and HOoP, but when you try to add series and parallel switching looks like it gets complicated.

below is a very rough sketch of what I was thinking. It certainly isn’t laid out properly , it’s just the things I would like in the circuit. I don’t mind if things were combined to give less switches . I’m just looking for the ability to have what I think would be the most sounds available

1. neck
2. bridge

3. neck + bridge 
4. neck + bridge OOP
5. (neck HOOP) + bridge
6. neck + (bridge HOOP)

7. neck x bridge
8. neck x bridge OOP
9. (neck HOOP) x bridge
10. neck x (bridge HOOP)

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 21, 2019 22:55:31 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 21, 2019 21:34:05 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Thanks . I was reading up on variable phase yesterday. Hurt my brain even more

one guy at the end said you can get variable out of phase just by having a volume control on both pickups and as you lower one volume control you’ll get the sweep from 180 degrees to 0 degrees 

is he right ? 

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 22, 2019 16:19:52 GMT -5 newey said:

Seems like one could do this, although it gets fairly complex for just a phase switch, by using a 4PDT On-On to switch the phase and switch the cap from series to parallel at the same time- but then this would have t be switched depending on the series/parallel setting . ..Hmmm

 Thanks . Hmmm indeed 🤔 

[ourclarioncall]

Article on variable out of phase

www.premierguitar.com/articles/29647-mod-garage-dig-out-of-phase-tone-then-make-it-variable

[reTrEaD]

Dec 22, 2019 18:55:05 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Thanks . I was reading up on variable phase yesterday. Hurt my brain even more

one guy at the end said you can get variable out of phase just by having a volume control on both pickups and as you lower one volume control you’ll get the sweep from 180 degrees to 0 degrees 

is he right ? 

That's wrong. Adjusting the amplitude of the content from one pickup or the other doesn't vary the phase angle. It does affects the amount of cancellation that is possible.

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 22, 2019 21:17:41 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 22, 2019 18:55:05 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

Thanks . I was reading up on variable phase yesterday. Hurt my brain even more

one guy at the end said you can get variable out of phase just by having a volume control on both pickups and as you lower one volume control you’ll get the sweep from 180 degrees to 0 degrees 

is he right ? 

That's wrong. Adjusting the amplitude of the content from one pickup or the other doesn't vary the phase angle. It does affects the amount of cancellation that is possible.

Ok. I think I understand

I read this tonight . I don’t know if by variable , he just meant you can get different sounds or if he thought the phase angle was varying
www.premierguitar.com/articles/29647-mod-garage-dig-out-of-phase-tone-then-make-it-variable

So is it possible to get variable phase angle? I did wonder if there is out of phase (180 degrees ?) and half out of phase (90 degrees? ) ..... then can you get three quarter out of phase (135 degrees ?) or quarter out of phase (45 degrees?) or any degree of out of phase you want ?

[ourclarioncall]

Couple of interesting discussion threads on variable phase

www.tdpri.com/threads/tone-control-that-goes-from-in-phase-to-out-of-phase.669673/

forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?281899-Variable-phase/page2

[reTrEaD]

Dec 22, 2019 21:27:35 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

and half out of phase (90 degrees? )

That's not what half out-of-phase means.

A capacitor is used to block (or shunt) the low frequency content from the out-of-phase pickup. Only the high frequency content remains, which can cancel some of the high frequency contribution of the in-phase pickup. The low frequency content of the in-phase pickup is not affected.

[Deleted]

Pickup is a MAGNET its ever NORTH or SOUTH pole shooting off.

000 or 180 degree not AC electrics where i can pull off a phase at 120 degrees and smooth it out
so only 2 Possible ways to do a "over done magnet" and it can only be out of phased when compared to some thing else

example .. i am 5'7, im not short .. im not tall.. unless i have a Tall person standing next to me, then i become short.

On/Off/On will let you Phase and Turn off each PickUp
the On/On or On/Off/On will let you 

1) Normal ... 2) OFF ... 3) 180 Degrees Out of Normal
1) Normal ... 2) OFF ... 3) 180 Degrees Out of Normal

1) Lets Both Pickups to Output ... 2) KILLS ALL ... 3) Links Pickups [If one is OFF then KILLS the Sound]

[ourclarioncall]

Dec 22, 2019 23:20:00 GMT -5 reTrEaD said:

Dec 22, 2019 21:27:35 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

and half out of phase (90 degrees? )

That's not what half out-of-phase means.

A capacitor is used to block (or shunt) the low frequency content from the out-of-phase pickup. Only the high frequency content remains, which can cancel some of the high frequency contribution of the in-phase pickup. The low frequency content of the in-phase pickup is not affected.

Mind blown 😆

Your like a sniper , taking out these myths I pick up from the interweb lol. Thanks 😊. Ok now I understand it a bit more .

So is it possible or popular to do the thing that I was thinking ? Or is that not possible . Again , I think if was what I had picked up from reading back and forth comments .

[ourclarioncall]

AngeisBunny

Thanks 😊
I won’t pretend to understand the schematic as I’m a novice 😆

[reTrEaD]

Dec 24, 2019 9:16:53 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

So is it possible or popular to do the thing that I was thinking ? Or is that not possible .

The thing you were thinking? You mean having the phase relationship of the fundamental frequencies from two pickups being at some phase angle other than 0 degrees or 180 degrees? That isn't possible unless you introduce an electronic delay in one of the signals. And that would become very unpredictable.

As an example let's have two pickups where the signals are in-phase and the fundamental frequency on the string is 1000Hz. The period for this frequency is 1 millisecond (mS). If we delay the signal from one of the pickups by 0.5 mS, it would be 180 degrees out-of-phase. If we shorten the delay time to 0.25 mS, it would be 90 degrees out-of-phase.

Seems successful so far, right?

What happens when the same 0.25 mS delay is used but the fundamental frequency is 2000Hz? The phase difference is 180 degrees.

At 4000Hz, the phase difference is 360 degrees (same as 0 degrees).

--

At 500Hz the phase difference is 45 degrees.

At 250Hz the phase difference is 22.5 degrees.

Interesting for sure but not what at all what you were thinking.

Dec 24, 2019 9:16:53 GMT -5 ourclarioncall said:

*video

I had to bail out after a minute or two. Even the in-phase sounds were tinny, brittle, and slightly distorted. Very unpleasant.

[sumgai]

in re: that video


As soon as he said "Basically, this turns the pair of pickups into a humbucker since they are now in series", I knew he had no clue about that of which he speaks. Sorry, I've got better things to do with my time.... buh bye.

And the sound was brittle, which he called "normal Strat sound". Hmmmm. Glad I don't have his hearing problems.





sumgai