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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 2, 2020 12:04:51 GMT -5
Howdy folks, my brain has officially melted , but il get it together and get my focus on. Having had a look around at the various Brian May (with parallel) mods, what I originally was going for was something like this by JohnH but I was trying to do it for two pickups which I guess should make it a lot simpler, but also add in HOOP switches, and volume and tone switches (which I haven’t even got to yet) I am also making the assumption that JohnH wiring will give me all possible series and parallel combinations as this is what I want. When frets offered up his diagram I made the assumption that if offered all series and parallel combinations but I don’t think it does. I think it is a circuit that has a bridge and middle in series mod to get that humbucker like sound when desired. Noticing that there is no 4PDT switch aswell makes me think it cannot offer all possible series/parallel combos. I tried to simplify frets diagram for two pickups still under the assumption that it offered all combos. i then took a look at JohnH diagram last night and tried to see if I could adapt it for two pickups but it looks to complicated for me to just remove a few wires here and there and I think the reason being is it’s so complex is because it has to be able to give all possible combinations. i also had a look at some jaguar/mustang wiring a which are obviously 2 pickups , and there are many series mods , but my problem is they are DP3T slide switches , not DPDT toggle switches and I could not quite understand the wiring. Anyway Just to reiterate , if JohnH has all possible series/parallel options then this is a good foundation to what I was going for, but I want it for 2 pickups, and I want HOOP switches, volume switches and tons switches. I would be happy find a version of JohnH’s for two pickups to give me a head start and then try and suss out the rest myself or with a bit of help when needed.
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Post by frets on Jan 2, 2020 15:56:07 GMT -5
Hello Exalted Masters of the Pool, I’m coming out of the water for a while with a circuit that works 100% for ourclarioncall’s desired purposes. However, I ask for your review. It keeps my premise of an on/off/on switch to control the on/off of the pickup; as well as the phase of the pickup. The attached diagram is for one pickup with the intent that it would be replicated. Half Phase is working, On/Off Pickup Works, Phase works and Series works. If you guys think it’s good to go, I’m moving on to the Volume Switch (I have an idea) and lastly, the tone switch. Thanks guys.
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Post by newey on Jan 2, 2020 17:22:17 GMT -5
I was with you right up until:
This is a diagram for only 1 pickup. Clarioncall wants his 2 pickups in either series or parallel, but both pickups would need to attach to an inter-pickup series/parallel switch. SO what is this switch doing here?
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Post by frets on Jan 2, 2020 18:18:35 GMT -5
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Post by newey on Jan 3, 2020 8:56:51 GMT -5
Got you now. Figure 1 is correct, and the middle diagram is also correct, in that the series/parallel switch comes last in line before the V pot, etc.Not sure that my take on the HOOP switch is viable, I went a different way than RT did.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 9:39:57 GMT -5
Frets,
just for clarity , what sounds are available from your original diagram ?
im looking to get all possible series and parallel combinations
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 9:45:04 GMT -5
This is what I currently have in my guitar. It gives me four sounds using two SPDT switches. It works quite well giving ... 1. N 2. B 3. N+B 4. NxB The only issue is one of the coils hangs from hot. This is another version using two DPDT switches . I stole out of a jaguar wiring diagram and it seems to be pretty good without any issues. I thought if could maybe be a good foundation to build on ? could the OOP, HOOP, vol and tone switches be integrated into this ? it was adapted from this
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Post by frets on Jan 3, 2020 12:17:15 GMT -5
Newey The HOOP you designed works fine.
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Post by frets on Jan 3, 2020 12:20:00 GMT -5
Clarion, the original has all sounds you are looking for. Retread pointed out that for your purposes, the capacitor is in the wrong position.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 19:01:22 GMT -5
Clarion, the original has all sounds you are looking for. Retread pointed out that for your purposes, the capacitor is in the wrong position. Frets, greetings. Keep soldering on, Youl definitely get there before me and I look forward to seeing you cross the finish line. I also want to keep having a stab at it myself so that I am keeping myself electronically fit and engaged in the learning process. I really hope you get a good result as I will be able to sit down an analyse the finished product and learn how it works. I’m having another attempt with a different approach , no doubt it won’t work but I can learn from my mistakes 😊
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 19:10:17 GMT -5
My brain was really taken to the limit with this one. Not sure if it can work or not but here goes. The first pic I know works and gives 4 sounds with N, B, N+B and NxB. The second pic is my attempt to add to it OOP and HOOP switches. It’s the CAPS on the HOOP switches that are most challenging (in my novice understanding) . I don’t know if it’s possible to get the caps in the right places. For example the top caps I think work in parallel but as RT pointed out are in the wrong place for when I switch to series . I think that’s because the cap will be in series in series mode but should be in parallel. the caps were in the right places in my other diagram with the different modes for series and parallel but this is kinda joining them both together and it’s creating problems
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 19:22:07 GMT -5
Also interested in Neweys idea with the cap switch
see how frets gets on with it
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 3, 2020 21:07:13 GMT -5
Bit of inspiration
I quite like the tones he is getting on the HOOP settings
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Post by newey on Jan 4, 2020 8:59:08 GMT -5
OCC-
We're getting a bit unfocused here, with a lot of diagrams flying about. Between several of the previous offerings, I think you basically have all the information you need, we just have to synthesize that down a bit into a final plan. So, let's address the following:
1) The diagram that I drew is set up such that the HOOP switch only adds the cap when the phase switch is set to OOP. When in phase, the HOOP switch does nothing. You indicated that you wanted to have the cap available when you were in-phase as well, and I believe you also said you wanted the cap available for the individual pickups only. This adds a lot of complexity, because the cap needs to be one way when you are in series, and another way when you're in parallel.
2) Your latest diagram has two caps on the HOOP switches, one on the top half of the switch, the other on the bottom half. This will mean that you will always have a cap in the circuit, you will be HOOP all the time, regardless of which way the HOOP switch is set. Definitely not what you want.
3) RT's diagram comes the closest to what you wanted, with a few "gotchas" on the pickup switching that he laid out for you. If you can live with the gotchas, fine. If not, a diagram to eliminate those issues would require more switch poles, and require switching that is either very expensive, unavailable at any cost, and/or unlikely to fit inside your guitar.
4) More basically, you said:
If, as currently wired, the guitar is fairly quiet, then the hanging coil is not really an issue. (I get that you want to add OOP and HOOP, my point is that I wouldn't be doing anything to eliminate the hanging coil, necessarily).
5) Frets' diagram in reply #63 looks good to me, I'd use that- but recognize there are some limitations, as RT pointed out.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 4, 2020 9:52:57 GMT -5
Newey
Very well summarised. Indeed , there are 3 pots on the boil here, 2 of mine and 1 from frets, so yeah the kitchen is getting a bit messy with all the cooking 🍳 🥓
1) Gotcha. I now have a better understanding/appreciation of caps complexity
2) yes, understood. I was wrestling with this last night. I’m still interested to see if there is anyway i can reposition the caps but looks like it cant work. Will have another look at it.
3) i was looking for 6PDT switches last night (as per Sumgais suggestion), so I’m still pondering this one.
4. Understood
5. Do you mean #62 or #64 ? I think #63 was one of your comments with no diagram in it
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 4, 2020 9:55:24 GMT -5
The 'lower' cap on each HooP switch is for the Series Mode and the 'upper' cap on each HooP switch is for the Parallel Mode. They can't exist in the circuit at the same time.This means you'll need two extra poles on your Series/Parallel Mode switch for each HooP switch. One pole would be used to connect one end of the 'lower' capacitor, only when the Mode switch is in the Series mode. (the other end of the 'lower' capacitor can be hard-wired to it's connection. The other pole would be used to shunt the 'upper' capacitor only when the Mode switch is in the Series mode. So add 4 poles to the Mode switch, in addition to whatever number of poles you need to accomplish the task of switching the overall circuit from parallel to series.
If you'd like to draw out a single HooP module (DPDT switch) with the two poles of the Mode switch represented as a second DPDT switch, I can proofread to make sure you have the connections correct.
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Jan 4, 2020 13:53:28 GMT -5
I find the name half out of phase incorrect. A capacitor is added to a 2-coils configuration. What then happens should be subscribed as an eq effect e.g. bass boost, treble boost.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 4, 2020 21:56:54 GMT -5
RT said: “So add 4 poles to the Mode switch, in addition to whatever number of poles you need to accomplish the task of switching the overall circuit from parallel to series.” I could be misunderstanding you here, but when you say mode switch, I’m assuming you mean the switch that changes the pickup selection from series to parallel ? If so I’m Not sure I understood as the top two switches I circled in the pic work together to get either 1.B 2. N 3. B+N 4. BxN For example both switches have to be thrown the same direction to get bridge and neck in parallel and then thrown the opposite way for series. Then for either bridge or neck on their own the switches are thrown in opposite directions. Soo...my mode switch is plural - “switches” EDIT: i have maybe confused you by posting so many pics. This is my latest version, it is a separate wiring attempt from the first switchrash one with the two different series and parallel sides changed by the 4PDT switch. I’m still working on that one too and looking at 6PDT switch as Sumgai suggested. comment #43 was the last attempt at the first switchrash one , then I put it on the shelf for a while Comment #52 was an attempt to redraw frets diagram for two pickups comment #67 onwards was introducing a new idea using a version of what is currently in my guitar at the moment
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Post by frets on Jan 4, 2020 22:53:11 GMT -5
Not to confuse
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Post by newey on Jan 4, 2020 22:56:27 GMT -5
No, I meant #63, which is frets.
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Post by frets on Jan 4, 2020 23:02:46 GMT -5
Please look at the one I just posted
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Post by sumgai on Jan 4, 2020 23:55:40 GMT -5
Please look at the one I just posted Are you certain you want me to look at it? I mean:
a) All four of the OoP and HOoP switches are non-starters; b) The pickup selector switch has a label "Off" - shouldn't that be "Both"?; b) The Ser/Par switch requires that Neck (or Both) be selected in order for the signal to get out.
Just sayin', ya know.
Now, the matter of Ser/Par only partially overriding the pickup selection is not a deal-breaker, but configuring it so that Neck or Both must be selected, that is a bit odd... and it will likely confuse the user until they get used to it. Better would be to have it over-ride the pickup selector entirely such that when Series is selected, the pup selector position doesn't matter. Conversely, the Ser/Par switch could be configured to act only when the selector is set to Both. At that point, the Ser/Par switch would have no effect if the pup selector were moved to Neck or Bridge. Either method is valid, it's strictly the player's choice.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by frets on Jan 5, 2020 1:08:30 GMT -5
Just a thought
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 5, 2020 11:49:23 GMT -5
EDIT: i have maybe confused you by posting so many pics. This is my latest version, it is a separate wiring attempt from the first switchrash one with the two different series and parallel sides changed by the 4PDT switch. I’m still working on that one too and looking at 6PDT switch as Sumgai suggested. My fault, really. I didn't even look at the top of the circuit. For this one, your pickup switches at the top would each be 4PDT, with the two additional poles reconfiguring the HooP switch on the same half of the circuit.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 5, 2020 13:07:51 GMT -5
RT no prob. Ok, think I might need a hand for this one. I numbered the lugs to make communication a bit easier. So... what am I moving where ?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 5, 2020 14:07:44 GMT -5
I find the name half out of phase incorrect. A capacitor is added to a 2-coils configuration. What then happens should be subscribed as an eq effect e.g. bass boost, treble boost. Interesting. I was getting confused with this , I thought it had to do with phase angle. 180 degrees being out of phase and 90 degrees being half out of phase. Here was a definition I found on the interweb “It’s not actually half out of phase, it’s called that because you put the pickups out of phase with each other, but with a capacitor in between them. This shunts all of a specific range of frequencies to the ground, and since out of phase cancels out equal frequencies, the frequencies shunted to the ground will not be cancelled out on the other pickup. This effectively makes it so that only some of the signal (not exactly half , give or take) is out of phase. It is supposed to sound similar to the 2 and 4 positions on a strat.”
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 16:34:25 GMT -5
I find the name half out of phase incorrect. A capacitor is added to a 2-coils configuration. What then happens should be subscribed as an eq effect e.g. bass boost, treble boost. Interesting. I was getting confused with this , I thought it had to do with phase angle. 180 degrees being out of phase and 90 degrees being half out of phase. Here was a definition I found on the interweb “It’s not actually half out of phase, it’s called that because you put the pickups out of phase with each other, but with a capacitor in between them. This shunts all of a specific range of frequencies to the ground, and since out of phase cancels out equal frequencies, the frequencies shunted to the ground will not be cancelled out on the other pickup. This effectively makes it so that only some of the signal (not exactly half , give or take) is out of phase. It is supposed to sound similar to the 2 and 4 positions on a strat.” This is why i dont want to POST any thing with you in it, I agree with "perfboardpatcher" and i did say same as him. but im sure this post is wasted , that i will get a good WHIPPING too.. SINE WAVE and SIGNAL are different things .. THE WEB is not ALWAYS RIGHT, one post doesnt make it correct. So ill stay out of your way and take this >KICKING< Get a electronics sim to see what happens but Pickup are a strange source OOP --- 'HOOP' --- S/P --- If=S Then N/N+B/B Lets go NUTZ, Tone/Volume on a Push/Pull for the Phasing "OOP" 4P4T for this "HOOP" Effect and a Cheap S-Type 5 way switch for the B/N+B/N/--/NxB +N to Common 1) Red 2) 10nF 3) Red 4) 10nF {link it around use the same 10nF that then goes on to Red} -N to Common 1) Green 2) 6K2 3) Green 4) 6K2 +B to Common 1) Red 2) Red 3) 10nF 4) 10nF -B to Common 1) Green 2)Green 3)6k2 4)6K2 for N+ to Common and 1. to the 5Way Switch, 2. 10nF to 1, 3. to the 5Way Switch, 4. link to 2 5way Switch 1) +N 2) +B 3) +N 4)Output 5)-N 6)GND 7)N/C 8) +B Not a Cut at the on the 4th Stage on the +B part and +N part This will give you N , N+B , B , --- , NxB This design will fit NICE in to a Strat body with out any changes or holes Im using P90 in a Humbucker format in a HH Strat Scratch plate myself
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Post by JohnH on Jan 5, 2020 18:09:52 GMT -5
Id go with any professional EE terminology definitions over guitar-nerd speak! This half-out of phase concept is an example. I think what we are talking about is just various circuits that unbalance an OOP combo. I'd like to offer up an idea for a 'module' To does everything I can think of to twist the tone of a single pickup, alone, or in combination with another such module to get combo effects: S2 is the basic phase switch, dpdt as usual. S1 is a dpdt on-off-on switch, ie, it has a middle position where nothing is connected. It can be used to do three things. Knob up, a capacitor C2 in series with a pot provides a standard tone control for one pickup. In combination with another module in series, it will do cap bypass and series hoop - all good tones Knob centre, the pot is cut out and the pickup feeds through a small cap C1. This is the basis either of a bass cut setting for one or two pickups, or parallel hoop or in-phase mix Knob down, no-load, no cap, full output The whole module shebang including pickup and pot, has just two wires coming out. Treat them as if they were a pickup to sub into any guitar circuit. I think what Id do is have two of these modules, probably omit the phase switch on one, and gang the two pots into one. then feed al that to a four position tele switch and a simple volume pot
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Post by frets on Jan 5, 2020 18:14:59 GMT -5
Thank God for John !!
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Post by reTrEaD on Jan 5, 2020 19:08:29 GMT -5
RT no prob. Ok, think I might need a hand for this one. I numbered the lugs to make communication a bit easier. So... what am I moving where ? I think JohnH 's suggestion is a good one and worth the time for you to examine it. But if you're still interested in following the present path ... Disconnect the 'lower' capacitor from HooP-2 and Hoop-3Instead, connect it between PSel-2 and PSel-8Connect a wire between PSel-9 and Hoop-4Connect a wire between PSel-11 and Hoop-6Connect a wire between PSel-12 and Hoop-1
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