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Post by perfboardpatcher on Jan 12, 2020 15:25:17 GMT -5
Newey, I see no problems with the naming as suggested by John. Alternative names? Something like synthetic coil configurations, PIP/C, SIP/C, POP/C, SOP/C? But you all seem attached to half out of phase so it probably stands no chance. Anyway, if you and John are happy with the names as they are now, I'm happy! 5 seems useless but in fact works excellently in when loaded by a inductor/varitone. I use the varitone to cut the lows (L>10Henry) so no OOP for me. Use 5 to add the highs of the bridge pup to the neck pup signal. Recommended.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 12, 2020 19:50:31 GMT -5
#1 Neck pickup is on. #2 Bridge pickup is on. #3 Neck and Bridge pickups are on In parallel, and in phase. #4 Neck and Bridge pickups are on in series, and in phase. #5 Neck pickup is on with the Neck Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Neck pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground, giving an alternative neck pickup sound. #6 (same as #2) Bridge pickup is on with Neck Hoop engaged. Neck Hoop switch is not part of the circuit and the capacitor has no effect on the bridge pickup. #7 Neck and bridge pickups are on in parallel with the Neck Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Neck pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground. Equal frequencies cancel each other out when pickups are out of phase with each other, but because some of the frequencies are now missing from the neck pickup , they will not be cancelled out from the bridge pickup contribution, but will remain as part of the overall sound. #8 Neck and Bridge pickups are on in series with the neck hoop switch engaged. Neck and bridge pickups are on in series with the Neck Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the neck hoop capacitor in parallel with the Neck pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground. Equal frequencies cancel each other out when pickups are out of phase with each other, but because some of the frequencies are now missing from the neck pickup , they will not be cancelled out from the bridge pickup contribution, but will remain as part of the overall sound. #9 (same as #1) Neck pickup is on with Bridge Hoop engaged. Bridge Hoop is not part of the circuit so the capacitor has no effect on the Neck pickup. #10 Bridge pickup is on with the Bridge Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Bridge pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground, giving an alternative Bridge pickup sound. #11 Neck and bridge pickups are on in parallel with the Bridge Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Bridge pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground. Equal frequencies cancel each other out when pickups are out of phase with each other, but because some of the frequencies are now missing from the Bridge pickup , they will not be cancelled out from the neck pickup contribution, but will remain as part of the overall sound. #12 Neck and Bridge pickups are on in series with The bridge hoop switch engaged. This introduces the bridge hoop capacitor in parallel with the Bridge pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground. Equal frequencies cancel each other out when pickups are out of phase with each other, but because some of the frequencies are now missing from the bridge pickup , they will not be cancelled out from the neck pickup contribution, but will remain as part of the overall sound. #13 (same as #5) Neck with Neck Capacitor and Bridge Capacitor : Neck pickup is on with the Neck Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Neck pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground, giving an alternative Neck pickup sound. Bridge Hoop switch is also on but is not part of the circuit so the capacitor has no effect on the Neck pickup. #14 (same as #10) Bridge pickup is on with the Bridge Hoop switch engaged. This introduces the capacitor in series with the Bridge pickup, which shunts some of the low end to ground, giving an alternative Bridge pickup sound. Neck Hoop switch is also on but is not part of the circuit so the capacitor has no effect on the Bridge pickup. #15 Neck and bridge pickups are on in parallel with the Neck Hoop and Bridge Hoop switches engaged. This introduces both the capacitors in series with both pickups, which shunts some of the low end of both pickups to ground. The purpose of the capacitors are to lose some frequencies on one pickup so that they wonāt be cancelled out on the other, therefore remaining part of the overall sound. In this case when there are caps on both pickups the overall sound should be similar (but not identical) to the standard neck and bridge in parallel sound. #16 Neck and Bridge pickups are in series with both neck and bridge hoop switches engaged. Neck and bridge pickups are on in series with the Neck Hoop and Bridge Hoop switches engaged. This introduces both capacitors in parallel with both pickups, which shunts some of the low end of both pickups to ground. The purpose of the capacitors are to lose some frequencies on one pickup so that they wonāt be cancelled out on the other, therefore remaining part of the overall sound. In this case when there are caps on both pickups the overall sound should be similar (but not identical) to the standard neck and bridge in series sound.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 12, 2020 19:57:16 GMT -5
You guys have been busy š š¤
Glad to be back on, got myself a new phone.
The previous post is my attempt to figure out what the switching is doing and what sounds I will get. Iām hoping Iāve got at least half of them right š
i have to be honest and admit I didnāt fully understand 3 of the series ones but think I have a good idea. I did a lot of reading and re-reading and discovered many of the answers were already there for me to glean. Anyway, my main goal is to not to know the answer but to actually understand and I think Iām making progress so Iām very happy
p.s I was going to delete the previous post that was many many posts ago, with these 16 pics that did not have the answers and were not in order, just to keep the thread tidy. But Iām scared I do something wrong and delete the entire thread , so il let one of the admin sort that if they want to . Cheers
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 12, 2020 20:47:31 GMT -5
JohnH Oh John, this is brilliant! A picture paints a thousand words . The pics are very helpful. So glad you shared this, but I donāt think the other guys will be happy as now I have to add more switches šš upload images
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 12, 2020 22:13:29 GMT -5
PBP
So, would you suggest get rid of the half out of phase term and view things as variations of either in or out of phase ? Interesting
1. PIP 2. SIP 3. PIP/C 4. SIP/C 5. POP 6. SOP 7. POP/C 8. SOP/C
or
1. PIP 2. SIP 3. PIPCAP 4. SIPCAP 5. POP 6. SOP 7. POPCAP 8. SOPCAP
Or
1. PIP 2. SIP 3. PIPCAP 4. SIPCAP 5. POOP 6. SOOP 7. POOPCAP 8. SOOPCAP
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Post by sumgai on Jan 12, 2020 23:29:40 GMT -5
I'm sorry to have to admit that I was pulled away from everything here for the last 54+ hours, but duty called.
OK, so you all went against the grain and decided to revise what Hoop means. Great.
For the record, and for the last time I'll utter/type these words: Hoop was devised as a way to describe a sound, a tonality if you will. It was coined by a person (or more than one such) who didn't know how in the world an OoP sound was created, and most likely he would not have cared in the least to know such knowledge. To him/them, it was a "perfect" description, and the rest of guitardom picked up on it, with Interent speed. (I reckon it took all of aboot 2 days.)
You will note that I did not disagree with it at the time, I saw no need to do so.
Now you have formalized a wiring concept, and re-assigned the name to that new concept. Fine, I'll go along with it. But when the Internet comes calling at our door, I hope you can convince them of this new definition, 'cause I'm not gonna take the heat for this one.
Like I said, I'll let it roll off my back, now that I've gotten my licks in.
So, what's for dinner?
sumgai
p.s. You don't wanna know what I was gonna propose that we call the new lash-ups, but deleted after a few moments of "cooling off".
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Jan 13, 2020 15:17:42 GMT -5
PBP So, would you suggest get rid of the half out of phase term and view things as variations of either in or out of phase ? Interesting I don't know, ourclarioncall, but for some reason i like sipsi, sopsi, pipsi and popsi the most. I see no need to assign new names to the old coil configurations. Name is one thing but have they already in the past or will pickup makers and regular guitar players embrace the hoop-dual-coil as an asset? Will there be on GNutz an influx of people who go straight into the archives to swap a switching option for a hoop and call it a new schematic? That could happen if hoop gets the status of bonafide coil configuration. Strange coil configurations will attract strange people. Perhaps it's better to treat hoop as experimental. Anyway,it's hard to find a good name that designates all the relevant elements that I can think of. 1.phase relationship of the coils (whether the output signals are in or out of phase when both coils receive the same input) Unfortunately the input signals themselves can be in or out of phase. (depends on where the coils are located, neck,mid or bridge which leads to the next item...) 2.phase relationship per frequency per string ("tillmann computations give eq per string") 3.global eq caused by C 4.sound perception p.s. Hoop is a dutch word. It means hope. It also means pile. Like in the dog left the parc but left behind a "hoop".
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Post by JohnH on Jan 13, 2020 15:51:07 GMT -5
I think once you start adding other components to a coil combination, it's never going to be possible to clearly convey what you are talking about by just using some acronym. If will always be necessary to have, within the piece you are writing, either a full description or better, a diagram. Then you can shorten to Hoop or whatever, for further discussion.
Going back to the arrangements 1 to 8. All the ones with caps can also be tried, with diffetent results, using a resistor instead. In those cases, some can default to tones that are already familiar if you have certain blending options available.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 15, 2020 17:47:06 GMT -5
PBP
What does the si at the end of pipsi stand for ?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 15, 2020 17:50:04 GMT -5
JohnH
So you can replace the caps for resistors ? Do they go in the exact same place ?
What does a resistor do differently than a cap to the sound?
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Post by sumgai on Jan 15, 2020 18:03:58 GMT -5
JohnH So you can replace the caps for resistors ? Do they go in the exact same place ? What does a resistor do differently than a cap to the sound? Muffles it a bit, depending on the part's value. This is part and parcel of the loading effect. Different from what we've all been discussing in this thread. If you're interested, use the Search function (in the menu above), and look for "load". A lot of results, pick and choose your poison. HTH sumgai
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 15, 2020 18:10:49 GMT -5
JohnH So you can replace the caps for resistors ? Do they go in the exact same place ? What does a resistor do differently than a cap to the sound? Muffles it a bit, depending on the part's value. This is part and parcel of the loading effect. Different from what we've all been discussing in this thread. If you're interested, use the Search function (in the menu above), and look for "load". A lot of results, pick and choose your poison. HTH sumgai Thanks Question: do capacitors always cut bass? Also, I think the Jerry Donahue fret king Tele has a HOOP sound that uses a cap and a resistor . That was intriguing
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Post by JohnH on Jan 15, 2020 20:20:13 GMT -5
Actually, using a resistor instead of the cap in 3,4,7 and 8 diagrams, doesnt muffle the tone, it's just a different way of suppressing one pickup in favour if the other. It's not like adding overall load to the whole combination.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 15, 2020 20:40:54 GMT -5
Actually, using a resistor instead of the cap in 3,4,7 and 8 diagrams, doesnt muffle the tone, it's just a different way of suppressing one pickup in favour if the other. It's not like adding overall load to the whole combination. My goal is to get a wide variety of sounds out of two single coils. Good bad and ugly, I donāt really mind, I just want to see and hear the possible extremes for myself. And I plan to have the coils sliding so I can really explore the landscape . But anyway i liked the idea of having a half volume switch for each pickup so that I could get the blend of both pickups but either the neck or bridge would be more dominant. And from a previous discussion I think that could be done by simply using a resistor so when you say itās possible to swap caps for resistors , is that whats happening ? The volume is being cut a little bit on the pickup with the resistor?
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Post by newey on Jan 15, 2020 23:01:55 GMT -5
Basically, yes. You can think of it this way: A cap shunts some portion of the frequency spectrum to from the output to ground, whereas the resistor affects the whole frequency spectrum, reducing it across the board, so to speak.
No,we never do this, unless with an explicit edit tag explaining in what way the original was changed.
As the late great ChrisK would have said: "History is".
No,you won't. You already have options that JohnH numbered as #5 and #6. If the phase switch (or either one of them individually is set to OOP, and the "half OOP" switch is set so that the cap is engaged, you get #7 and #8, series and parallel.
But flip the OOP switches such that the pickup in question is in-phase, and engage the cap with the HOOP switch (which is now, per our agreed nomenclature, no longer a HOOP switch, but is now a "cap bypass"), and you have # 5 and #6 above. And, of course, your 4P series/parallel switch then switches the cap between the series and parallel settings.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 16, 2020 10:53:30 GMT -5
Newey
Ah okay, thanks for the explanation
Do you know if caps always shunt bass away or can they shunt other frequencies? ā-
No way! High five lol š I woke up in the early hours and read your message then it clicked on my head that if the hoop switch is engaged this is now out of phase because the hot and ground are swapping . But I can flick the other actual out of phase switch and this will reverse the phase back to In phase so I will actually get JohnHās number 5 and 6 š„³ š
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Post by sumgai on Jan 16, 2020 13:13:18 GMT -5
Do you know if caps always shunt bass away or can they shunt other frequencies? In essence, yes. A capacitor passes higher frequencies more easily than lower frequencies. Depending on how a cap is wired into a circuit, the net effect can be perceived as either cutting some of the highs (a bog standard Tone control which is shunting the highs to ground, and thus we won't hear them), or some of the lows (the usual Bass cut circuit bandied aboot in these pages). Please refer back to Reply #99, on Page 4 of this thread. I pointed out this exact scenario as a shortcoming, in that it requires two switches to be manipulated in order to achieve what can, and should've been, done with only one switch. In my book, that's always a bad thing.
HTH
sumgai
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 16, 2020 14:13:30 GMT -5
Sumgai
ok, cool, I wasnāt sure if a different value of cap did things to the lows mids and highs or just highs .
ā
ah ! Now I get it 100%. The first time I read that I didnāt have a clue. I think I thought
āeh? How can you be out of phase and half out of phase at the same time?ā
It was a series of things that made me understand the below quote. First off JohnH posted a pic with 8 options and I had not thought about 5 and 6.
Then what Newey said yesterday.
funnily enough I think I was actually thinking about your words out of phase and half out of phase at the same time and I was like ahhh, maybe thatās what Sumgai meant.
āThen there's the fact that the HOoP switches are duplicating the function of the OoP switches, albeit with a tone-altering component in the signal path. As I see it, to get OoP and the HOoP sound together I need to flick only one switch (the HOoP), and if I want the HOoP sound only, I need to flick both switches. That's backwards from what I'd consider a logical operation. Do recall that the term "HOoP" is a descriptor of the resultant tone, and not an operator on the signal path.ā
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Post by perfboardpatcher on Jan 16, 2020 14:35:50 GMT -5
PBP What does the si at the end of pipsi stand for ? No need to search for a deeper meaning because there isn't one. Just pip/Ceee. Parallel with cap is basically the same but longer. JohnH' number 5 sounds like insider talk. So many options. OTOH calling something half seems a bit wierd to me, doesn't it say "no need for a proper name"? Good luck with building your circuit! Someone has to be first.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 16, 2020 17:07:12 GMT -5
PBP
now that I have sat and thought about , the term half out of phase diminishes the simplicity of understanding a circuit as either in phase or out of phase. Iād be happy to let āhoopā be superseded by something else like we have discussed. Much easier for me to grasp anyway at my kindergarten stage
āā- As far as my circuit goes, itās tough being a pioneer but someoneās got to do it š who knows, you might be washed up on a desert island one day with a crate of DPDT switches washed up on shore and thatās all youāve got to work with š not sure where the electricity is going to come from mind you
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 16, 2020 17:16:27 GMT -5
Sumgai
Ok, yeah, after having a think about it , it would have been better if the hoop switches were just cap switches as we already have a phase switch(oop).
It would be simpler to change PIP and SIP to POP and SOP with the phase switch(oop switch) and change PIP,SIP,POP and SOP to PIPCAP, SIPCAP, POPCAP and SOPCAP with the cap switch(currently hoop switch)
Or in other words, one switch is dedicated to introducing just the cap and the other switch dedicated to phasing. Well, it would be two cap switches and two phase switches (one each for both neck and bridge )
Maybe a bit too late now as I donāt have a clue where the caps would be placed if things all move around
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Post by ourclarioncall on Jan 16, 2020 17:56:49 GMT -5
My end goal was to add two extra switches to do something with tone
And another two switches for half volume .
So 6 switches to 10 switches.
But now I think about it , I probably donāt need the tone switches anymore as I already have the caps which are doing that job already.
So then all I would need are two more switches with Iām guessing a resistor on them so I can cut the neck or bridge pickup volumes in half (approximately)
This would give me quite a wide variety of sounds.
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 23, 2020 13:02:58 GMT -5
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 23, 2020 13:15:12 GMT -5
Not sure if everything is working as it should be, just had a quick mess about with the sounds. I seem to be getting a nice variety and getting familiar with the switching. Some do seem very dark. Iām not sure if the 0.1uF is the culprit or not. can someone clarify I have wired the caps in the right places ? from what I recall, the series caps are wired in parallel and the parallel caps are wired in series ? Is that correct ? If so , I went with 0.1uF for the parallel (with caps wired in series) and 0.01uF for the series (with caps wired in parallel )
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 23, 2020 19:37:47 GMT -5
Iām hoping to record some sounds tomorrow and get a YouTube video up. Iām really pleased with what Iām hearing so far
Got myself a soldering iron and some 22awg solid core. It works great but there were a few occasions where I needed 2 pieces of wire and the leg of a capacitor all in the same lug and I could not squeeze all three in so just had to make do. The legs on the orange drop caps are pretty thick in comparison to other cheaper ones.
Hereās my guesstimate of all possible combinations available
NECK BRIDGE NECK + NECK CAP BRIDGE + BRIDGE CAP
PARALLEL IN PHASE SERIES IN PHASE PARALLEL OUT PHASE SERIES OUT OF PHASE
PARALLEL IN PHASE + NECK CAP SERIES IN PHASE + NECK CAP PARALLEL OUT PHASE + NECK CAP SERIES OUT PHASE + NECK CAP
PARALLEL IN PHASE + BRIDGE CAP SERIES IN PHASE + BRIDGE CAP PARALLEL OUT PHASE + BRIDGE CAP SERIES OUT PHASE + BRIDGE CAP
PARALLEL IN PHASE + NECK/ BRIDGE CAPS SERIES IN PHASE + NECK/ BRIDGE CAPS PARALLEL OUT PHASE + NECK/ BRIDGE CAPS SERIES OUT PHASE + NECK/ BRIDGE CAPS
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 24, 2020 15:20:57 GMT -5
I have to say Iām quite impressed with quality of the sounds Iām getting , especially for el cheapo guitar and pickups
Clean sounds
Overdrive sounds
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 25, 2020 18:36:39 GMT -5
Hmmmm š¤
Ok, after having another play around with this , it sounds like quite a few of the sounds are not working or are not actually changing anything . Unless the change is so subtle that I canāt hear the difference
I have put a question mark next to the sounds that are... questionable! most of them are adding the caps in . (The hoop switches) . It seems like the caps are not doing anything to alter the sound at all
Another strange one was that the āParallel in phase + bridge capā sounds the same as āseries In phaseā ?? howās that possible ?
> MIDDLE > BRIDGE ? MIDDLE + MIDDLE CAP ? BRIDGE + BRIDGE CAP
> PARALLEL IN PHASE > SERIES IN PHASE > PARALLEL OUT PHASE > SERIES OUT OF PHASE
> PARALLEL IN PHASE + MIDDLE CAP > SERIES IN PHASE + MIDDLE CAP ? PARALLEL OUT PHASE + MIDDLE CAP ? SERIES OUT PHASE + MIDDLE CAP
> PARALLEL IN PHASE + BRIDGE CAP ? SERIES IN PHASE + BRIDGE CAP ? PARALLEL OUT PHASE + BRIDGE CAP > SERIES OUT PHASE + BRIDGE CAP
? PARALLEL IN PHASE + MIDDLE/ BRIDGE CAP > SERIES IN PHASE + MIDDLE/ BRIDGE CAPS ? PARALEL OUT PHASE + MIDDL/BRIDGE CAP > SERIES OUT PHASE + MIDDLE/ BRIDGE CAP
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Post by JohnH on Feb 26, 2020 9:38:24 GMT -5
It might be worth just considering which cap you have where. For a series combo of coils, where one coil is bypassed by a cap, you want a cap in the range around 0.047 to 0.1uF. For pickups in parallel, one of which has a cap in series, id expect you'd want a very small cap. Might your caps be the other way around?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 26, 2020 9:57:59 GMT -5
It might be worth just considering which cap you have where. For a series combo of coils, where one coil is bypassed by a cap, you want a cap in the range around 0.047 to 0.1uF. For pickups in parallel, one of which has a cap in series, id expect you'd want a very small cap. Might your caps be the other way around? Hi. I went ahead and wired it like this picture . I maybe should have waited for clarification but I thought for the parallel sounds you have to wire the cap in series and vice verses, for the series sounds you need the cap in parallel . Is that correct ?
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Post by ourclarioncall on Feb 26, 2020 10:07:35 GMT -5
It might be worth just considering which cap you have where. For a series combo of coils, where one coil is bypassed by a cap, you want a cap in the range around 0.047 to 0.1uF. For pickups in parallel, one of which has a cap in series, id expect you'd want a very small cap. Might your caps be the other way around? Argh š ok, now I see what your saying . Yes I think Iāve got the caps in the wrong places š¤ and I was trying to be so careful to do it right , not sure how I got that one wrong ! Oh well, Iām glad that might be mystery solved but then I might now lose a sound that I like haha
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