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Post by Runewalker on Apr 26, 2006 11:12:23 GMT -5
I have a little project that is control option limited.
2 humbuckers Edit: (each with 4 lead and shield) , but allowance for only a Gibby 3-way, and two potentiometer holes.
First thought is P/Ps on a Master Vol, Master Tone, with coil cuts for each -hum, or maybe just local Parallel on both HHs to give up the hum. No system Seri/Para then without drilling for the toggle, which the guy I am building for is reluctant to do.
Any other ideas about what can be done within these constraints. I may be able to talk him into one mini-toggle. This is a Zen design exercise. To make it more constrained I guess I could just put one pup, no controls, straight out to the jack. Yeah, ZenBaby!
RW
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Post by jhng on Apr 26, 2006 11:45:41 GMT -5
My choice would be a standard Gibson toggle with:
One push/pull that splits both humbuckers;
One push/pull that bypasses the toggle switch and puts both pups in series (like in the Jimmy Page wiring), or in series and out of phase.
Hastings
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Post by Mike Richardson on Apr 26, 2006 12:23:06 GMT -5
Four bridge pickups?!? Or four different lead tones?
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 26, 2006 12:37:52 GMT -5
I have a little project that is control option limited. 4 lead humbuckers, ... er, uh, Rune, you could have avoided this: Four bridge pickups?!? Or four different lead tones? if you didn't try to speak English, and just spoke American. unk
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 26, 2006 13:44:30 GMT -5
Four bridge pickups?!? Or four different lead tones? Ok I see how that is confusing. 4 Lead pickups - Shredders Heaven, now only to have a meeting of the minds with the Jackson spokeswoman. Each pickup has 4 leads (wires) + a shield. I edited the original. Com'on guys, the header of the forum says "Electonics and Wiring", not Electronics and Shredding. I told you folks that English is my second language (ESL), I am a native Texan speaker. Sorry about that, but I do like the image of your interpretation. Let's see ... 4 -hums = 8 coils and if we go the sumgai slammer route, what is that, about 9 Blade switches and a guitar body the size of a Texas County (that is state-sized to the rest of you).
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Post by Mike Richardson on Apr 26, 2006 16:44:22 GMT -5
Okay, cowboy--that's four-CONDUCTOR pickups, with shield. There are all sorts of things to be done with two push-pull pots, as you know. Just decide what you want, and somebody around here can set you up.
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 26, 2006 17:30:30 GMT -5
...Just decide what you want, and somebody around here can set you up. that's just the problem. Rune never knows what he wants until he examines ALL the possible permutations. then he'll decide on one that he likes, and want you to twist it inside out, to get 3 more features that don't combine easily (if at all). trust me i know. unk
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Post by Mike Richardson on Apr 26, 2006 18:09:09 GMT -5
[glow=red,2,300]LMAO [/glow] I know how that is. My mother's motto is, "Do what I want, not what I tell you". Seems to run in the family.
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 26, 2006 22:16:07 GMT -5
...Just decide what you want, and somebody around here can set you up. that's just the problem. Rune never knows what he wants until he examines ALL the possible permutations. then he'll decide on one that he likes, and want you to twist it inside out, to get 3 more features that don't combine easily (if at all). trust me i know. unk [/size][/quote] Posted by Mike Richardson on Today at 4:44pm Okay, cowboy--that's four-CONDUCTOR CONDUCTOR! Ok Thomas the Tank Engine, Ringo Starr-I-can't-get-a-job-playing-drums-anymore. First I get slagged for saying "Wiiiiiioarr" instead of Conductor, then Unk slams me for never making up my mind, and being too creative --- and then --- and then MR compares me to ....HIS MOTHER! ..... Man I am feeling the love..... Good thing I have a Texas size ego to slough this slag fest off, and show some mature restraint. That reminds me, Tex Hornet always says, "Maturity, like working for a livin' are both highly over rated." Actually in this little dilemma of a very simplified HH, the objective is more with less. So there are not not many permutations (sorry to disappoint Unk). It is also for someone, who won't necessarily understand or appreciate the additional options. Too much cleverness would be wasted there. So there is a little Zen objective matching here. But Unk is right, I do like to explore the options, all the options, before I select one, then opt to change my mind. Hey, I've been married before and I've seen what a good system that is for the gals. ....You know since there are so few, make that no, women on this board, we are remarkably restrained about acting like immature men. There's a world of opportunity there. Thanks for weighing in. JHNG's idea of one P/P for both cut coils and the other PP for System Series/Para might be the ticket. MR, what other options for 2 P/Ps can you see for a two potentiometer hole jobber. I might could ditch the 3-way switchcraft and add another pot or pot/PP combo in that hole, then put a mini for pup selection, but that might be a little too unconventional for the destination. Ok I have to leave and put an ice pack on my bruised and possibly psychologically altered, ego. RW boo hoo I may have to challenge both of you to a hot sauce eating contest.
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Post by CheshireCat on Apr 26, 2006 23:19:03 GMT -5
Why the constraints, btw?
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Post by Mike Richardson on Apr 26, 2006 23:27:13 GMT -5
It depends on what your priorities are. Obviously, the humbucker is your primary sound. What sort of music will the guitar be used for? Many players will use a dual-single switch on the neck pickup, but not the bridge, unless they need something for country music. Secondly, what make/model of pickups are they? Some sound better tapped than others, and some do better with series/parallel and phase switches, etc.
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 26, 2006 23:29:33 GMT -5
Why the constraints, btw? Yeah, constraints are little antithetical here aren't they, albeit more and more folks discuss optimal combos and ergonomics, which end up being design constraints, as well as objectives. This bod is finished, and the guy I am building for, likes it the way it is: one hole for the switchcraft 3-way, and two holes for pots. The holes are recessed, PRS style so adding any holes will stand out because the will not be recessed. A well placed and 'tasteful' mini might work, but not those multi-mini toggle jobbers. Also it is backrouted which faces the issue of finding minis or other controls with long enough bushings to fit the typical back routed, carved top chassis.
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Post by Mike Richardson on Apr 26, 2006 23:34:08 GMT -5
Another idea is to use Push-Push pots instead of Push-Pull. That way there's no chance of a knob coming off at an inopportune time.
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Post by CheshireCat on Apr 27, 2006 2:21:32 GMT -5
Yeah, constraints are little antithetical here aren't they, albeit more and more folks discuss optimal combos and ergonomics, which end up being design constraints, as well as objectives. True, but only three holes are usually a bit much, especially when one is spoken for, and the others are pot driven. This bod is finished, and the guy I am building for, likes it the way it is: one hole for the switchcraft 3-way, and two holes for pots. The holes are recessed, PRS style so adding any holes will stand out because the will not be recessed. A well placed and 'tasteful' mini might work, but not those multi-mini toggle jobbers. Also it is backrouted which faces the issue of finding minis or other controls with long enough bushings to fit the typical back routed, carved top chassis. Ah. Indeed. Well, here's an idea: keep the toggle thing going on, double stack the vol and tone pots, and then use the other hole for an 11-position, ampayn rotary switch for stuff like series, parallel, oop, splitting, and so on. In fact, you might be able to run two PRS protocols back to back, the first one straight, and the other one in phase inversion. If that was coupled with LP toggling, then when you had the inside or outside coils selected, then toggling back and forth would give you the effect of coil splits. You'd have the series and parallel things worked out as well. Hmmmmmmmmm . . . That actually offers lots of possibilities. Potentially 33. That should cover most options. What do you guys think? That would definitely get you in the running. With a range of 33 possible sounds, I'm sure you could make some things work. Chesh
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Post by sumgai on Apr 27, 2006 2:53:55 GMT -5
Don't know where I was hiding while this whole thread was going on, but I'm paying for it now, by being late to the party. Chesh is correct, stack the vol/tone, and put a rotary switch in the remaining hole. Gives the most options available in "stealth" mode. sumgai p.s. BTW, Rune, the dictum is "one coil, one switch". 8 coils doesn't quite equal 9 switches. ;D
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 27, 2006 9:00:12 GMT -5
sumgai
p.s. BTW, Rune, the dictum is "one coil, one switch". 8 coils doesn't quite equal 9 switches. ;D Yeah, SG, I got out the abacus and figured out the count. That was just a lure for the slammer crowd. "Get the net, and reel him in, we gotta ourselves a big-un!" MR I like the push-pushes, but the best price I've seen is 3 to 4X as expensive as the P/Pulls I bought in quasi-bulk from Mouser. So the guy this is going to is getting Push/Pulls ...... Now that rotary idea from Chesh has some possiblities. Not on the bolt on I am building, because an effort like that needs a destination that will appreciated it. However, I do have a set neck 3 holer that I am considering keeping, but have been underwhelmed with 2 local Series, System Parallel combo, MastVol, MastTone set up. That is one prob we should warn the newbies about. Once you extract the hidden sounds, especially out of humbuckers, or the series combos on Strat singles, you can never go back. Like smack, don't even try it once or you are hooked. There are a bunch of Alpha rotaries at Mouser, and I have tested (along with JH) the 4P5pos for fit, and it works. Same form factor in a 4P6pos is available. But after that you go to 3 decks for more postions and multiple poles (which won't fit the cavity, at least with a back plate installed), or you have 1 or 2 poles and 11 or more postitions. I'm not familiar with the Ampayn rotary. Where can I find spec and a seller, and how many poles and decks does it have? RW
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Post by JohnH on Apr 27, 2006 9:09:09 GMT -5
RW [ for a simple HH mod, with two push pulls on two pots. Best I can think of is one switch cuts both to singles, and the other does series/parallel, in the slightly funky JP style since it is only a two pole switch. another is just two single coil cuts, one for each pup
cheers
John
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Post by CheshireCat on Apr 27, 2006 13:26:44 GMT -5
I'm not familiar with the Ampayn rotary. Where can I find spec and a seller, and how many poles and decks does it have? How many poles and decks? Don't worry, the Ampayn rotary has as many poles as you'll need.
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 27, 2006 16:25:55 GMT -5
i like the direction JohhH went, because it uses familiar hardware and locations.
but if the "limitation" is 3 holes, one where the Gibby 3-way is normally parked, and a volume and tone, here's an off-beat possibility.
push-pulls on the volume and tone select:
1 -- bridge only
2 -- neck only
3 -- parallel
4 -- series
a rotary in the position normally used for the 3-way does the advance work on the HBs.
like coils splits, HB s/p, HB phase, and/or Neck-Bridge phase.
an 8-pole, 9-position rotary would allow a ton of possibilities.
but i have no idea what is available.
unk
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Post by sumgai on Apr 28, 2006 1:02:09 GMT -5
unk,
Is that hole for the Switchcraft pup selector big enough to handle a rotary switch? Particularly with all the wires that have to go through the channel back down to the main cavity? Not having one on hand at the moment to check for myself, I'm relying on memory here, and it seems like some re-fitting would be in order to make your suggested mod. Or am I all washed up? (And no references to hogs, please! ;D)
sumgai
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Post by UnklMickey on Apr 28, 2006 8:51:05 GMT -5
...Or am I all washed up? (And no references to hogs, please! ;D) sumgai you take all the fun out of it! enough room? depends on the switch. there are lots of rotaries that won't fit. some that will. is there one with enough poles and positions to do what Rune would want it to AND fit without "hogging"? i don't know. yes, there would be quite a few wires to and from the switch. 8 wires from the pickups and 4 to the push-pulls. unk
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Post by sumgai on Apr 29, 2006 13:07:13 GMT -5
unk, I'm sure that the wire-run hole would have to be enlarged to make that happen. But now I'm thinking, "Rune built this in the first place, why can't he go back and enlarge that hole himself, if he has the need?" I know there are drill bits of the required diameter that are long enough, so this really shouldn't be a problem, should it? I was more concerned with the size of the hole for the switch, but in retrospect, this is again an area that Rune should be able to handle, if it becomes necessary. Come to all of that, enlarging the control cavity and adding more control holes really should be child's play for our Resident Wood Butcher, no? Hey Rune, what's up with that, eh? sumgai
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 29, 2006 16:58:41 GMT -5
unk,
Is that hole for the Switchcraft pup selector big enough to handle a rotary switch? sumgai I have sort of struggled on why the size of the hole has been a concern, since the diameter of Switchcraft style or even the cheaper block style, large toggle head switches is always biger than the holes for the pots. So I re-read it a couple of times thinking, well these guys are the brains of the operation, so there must be something to this concern. The tip-off then was the "...with all the wires that have to go through the channel back down to the main cavity? ..." Sounds like you are thinking Les Paul, and of course I am proud of you. But these are just bods or set neck chassis bought to customize, not something I built. With so many inexpensive ones out there it is not worth the effort to build one, unless I plan to keep it or some insane person would pay me cost plus. And most of the HHs that don't emulate LPs have the 3-way in the large control cavity. So mining through the channel on these 2 I am looking at is not necessary. I am not sure how to drill a channel enlargement to a LP upper (what is that thing called, since it is not cut for a horn?). I've seen some tight space, right angle drill adapters, but the guitar is too tight. A flex shaft might do it. I should have asked that question when I toured the gibson factory. So the only issue on those rotaries is bushing length. Almost certainly it would require some wood hogging in the back cavity, because so many of the rotaries are panel mount, and they are assumeing a sheet metal backing, which is thinner than we like to leave wood on a guitar control cavity. I looked on Mounser. There are inexpensive Alphas that JH used on the LP Max. He used a 4P5Pos, and there is a 4P6Pos version. the 6 pole only has 2 positions. www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1276.pdfElectroswitch which are pricier are here: www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1278.pdfThere is a 6 pole 2-6 Pos switch, an 8 pole 2-6 Pos switch, and a 9 and a 12 pole with only 2-4 positions. Here: www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1279.pdfthere is a 6 pole 2-12 position for $236.50. I don't think so. this has 4 and 5 poles with 2-11 positions, again pricy but not unachievable, just a big swallow. www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1280.pdfBut the real issue there is 5 decks. No backplate possible, and a new meaning to buckle rash. None of these exotic 8 pole 1 position jobbers. Digikey may have something, but they seem even more expensive than mouser. An intriguing idea for one the builds to use a mulitposition rotary, but finding the beasts (that fits and is reasonable cost), is illusive, at least for me.
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Post by sumgai on Apr 30, 2006 5:32:15 GMT -5
Rune,
The hole that runs from the main control cavity up to the switch in the upper bout is made with a long drill bit, started in the output jack cavity. Once it's made, even if not by you, it can still be enlarged, obviously. I think it would take a 20" long bit, but I could be off a little on that.
sumgai
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Post by Runewalker on Apr 30, 2006 20:19:19 GMT -5
Rune, The hole that runs from the main control cavity up to the switch in the upper bout is made with a long drill bit, started in the output jack cavity. Once it's made, even if not by you, it can still be enlarged, obviously. I think it would take a 20" long bit, but I could be off a little on that. sumgai Ok, that is an iteresting tidbit. I never noticed an additional but slanted hole going throught the wood between the pups in an LP. That aside, exploring this idea of a rotary seems to bump up against constraint in the number of postions, at least in switches I can find that will fit a back routed cavity. Not sure how many poles are needed, 4 at the least I presume. Are there rotaries out there with enough poles and positions to obtain the "optimal" single pup and combos in an HH? If so what and where is it, at what price?
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Post by Runewalker on May 1, 2006 13:03:39 GMT -5
Here is a 4 decker with 4 poles and 2-12 positions. Will this give some options or are more poles required. Height in cavity will be about 1.64", which may push available room www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1278.pdfELECTROSWITCH C4 SERIES: 1.5” DIAMETER ADJUSTABLE STOP ENCLOSED ROTARY SWITCHES Mouser Number - 690-C4D0412N Electro Switch number - A C4D0412N-A Poles = 4 Active Positions = 02-12 Poles/Deck = 1 No. of Decks = 4 Price for 1 = $22.40 Is shorting or non-shorting prefered?
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Post by JohnH on May 2, 2006 7:28:31 GMT -5
The easy part is - shorting is preferred. That way, there are no 'disconnected moments', liable to be vulnerable to noise, when changing between positions.
As to what can be done as a maximum with a 4 pole switch only, its hard to be sure. One can usually only prove what can be done, by doing it, rather than what can't be done, by failing to do it.
However, I would say that with 4 poles, there is fundamentally not enough poles to do everything with a pair of humbuckers, without some help from other switches. In several of the schematics posts, a 4 pole super switch is used, with extra toggles (or push pull) to get S/P switching or Oop switching. These super switch designs could be made identically electrically, using a 4 pole 5 way rotary. And since you can also get a 4 pole 6 way, you could add another variation as well. Big Ugly could work that way for example.
With only the 4 pole rotary though, I could see that for example, four poles could provide any choice of single or pairs of coils, but only in series or only in parallel.
I see there is also an 8 pole 6 way switch, with 4 decks. With that you could have your six favorite combos of any type you like. Better have an impact wrench attached to the guitar strap, to help turn the switch!
cheers
John
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Post by JohnH on May 5, 2006 1:02:58 GMT -5
I was thinking further about what can be achieved with 4 pole switches – probably this is me catching up to what Unkl and Fobits have already worked out.
Since 4 is not enough poles to switch freely between the 8 wires of two Hb pups, some constraints must apply. One that I think works, is to say that the central connections between north and south coils are fixed (ie, red is connected to white, as per a normal Hb with SD colours). With this, and a system series/parallel switch, I think a 4 pole rotary switch will give you free choice of any combination you want, except that there is no local parallel possible (except local parallel Out-of-phase which is not worth it). So you can have system series and parallel options between pups, but only single coils and series connections within one pup. Still a lot of choices are possible with this
Eg – (Neck Hb or Sc) in series or parallel with (Bridge Hb or Sc), in or out of phase.
Any use?
John
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Post by Runewalker on May 5, 2006 13:26:50 GMT -5
I was thinking further about what can be achieved with 4 pole switches – probably this is me catching up to what Unkl and Fobits have already worked out. Since 4 is not enough poles to switch freely between the 8 wires of two Hb pups, some constraints must apply. One that I think works, is to say that the central connections between north and south coils are fixed (ie, red is connected to white, as per a normal Hb with SD colours). With this, and a system series/parallel switch, I think a 4 pole rotary switch will give you free choice of any combination you want, except that there is no local parallel possible (except local parallel Out-of-phase which is not worth it). So you can have system series and parallel options between pups, but only single coils and series connections within one pup. Still a lot of choices are possible with this Eg – (Neck Hb or Sc) in series or parallel with (Bridge Hb or Sc), in or out of phase. Any use? John Yes JH I have been thinking in the same direction. I like the local parallel option, but it may seem superfulous to the large population. Struggling with these two builds I came to the same conclusion on giving up local parallel. "I think a 4 pole rotary switch will give you free choice of any combination you want..." So then the issue is finding a four pole with more than 6 positions. Which has come up pretty dry except for: www.mouser.com/catalog/626/1280.pdfWhich has 4 and 5 pole switches with 02-11 positions. I suspect any more than 6 positions is improbable as a live play guitar in terms of rapid transitions. The 02-11 would be fun for a sit-at-home or studio guitar. And it does not sound like 5 poles will solve the 8 pole problem. So then it is an issue of selecting the optimal 6 arrays. I broach this issue on a recent post to your one pup/one control challenge, busting rules as I go. guitarnuts2.proboards45.com/index.cgi?board=wiring&action=display&thread=1146359636
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Post by JohnH on May 5, 2006 15:26:51 GMT -5
A couple of boring business flights yesterday lead to the following:
Once one accepts that local parallel is out the door. what is left for each pup is series or Sc coil cut. So you could have all the main options with a push/pull coil cut switch, one for each pup, mounted on a master tone and master volume control.
then a 4 pole 5 way rotary (or super switch) to combine the pups
Neck Neck/Bridge series Neck/bridge paralel Neck/Bridge series out-of-phase Bridge
order could be changed
That switch is as on the LPmax, and wired much the same way. I believe hum-cancelling can be kept optimum
how about that?
John
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